More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[corneliuslundie]

I have never actually known what original documents Harold had access to. But they do not seem to have been the same as the "Swindon" register of which John Lewis sent me some pages. Here is an example spread from that Register:

BTW why is it a Carriage Department document?

 

The South Wales register is a different document entirely. Here is the front cover:

 

The yellow sticker presumably refers to a Kew reference. This is the one which has the Dock wagon references.

The GWR certainly didn't think much of the Cambrian timber wagons, though that may have been partly because a lot were needed during the war for pit prop traffic and they were surplus once timber imports restarted. Though some of those went to the docks.

Another group of wagons has against the wording along the lines of "Broken up and sent to Portishead", mostly around 1927. The thought is that they were either sent there before breaking up and used during the construction of the power station there (large numbers of wagons can be seen in photos) or were sent there as remains for export.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

The yellow sticker presumably refers to a Kew reference.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4350208.

[wagonman]

17 hours ago, Northroader said:

one thing that tickles me is that the GWR didn’t think much of its newly acquired fleet, if you look at the cond. dates.

 

Most of the wagons the GWR inherited in 1923 had wooden underframes which were anathema at Swindon, hence their early demise. The exMSWJR stock built with steel frames by Gloucester in c1897 mostly lasted until the early '50s.

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

Yet another MR Open - is it a D299 I wonder!

 

Leith Docks, Scotland in the late 1920s or 1930s by the loco (a Y9)

 

Happy New Year!

 

Tony

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Rail-Online
Location clarification

[MarcD]

I think there is two D299's

Marc

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

I think there is two D299's

 

Although since only one end is visible, the one on the left could be an end-door D351. Not No. 18322 though, since looking at the non-brake side, the end door would be at the left-hand end. This differed from the usual arrangement for one-side-only braked end door wagons, which was that the brake lever was at the fixed end. 

 

Number added to the list!

[Compound2632]

On 28/12/2022 at 19:49, Compound2632 said:

This completes my collection of the Keith Turton series, with the exception of the out-of-print first and second collections. 

 

Thanks to @Rowsley17D taking pity on my compulsive completism and offering to sell me his surplus volumes - he says he has had from them all the information he requires - I now have the complete set!

 

 

I was about to write that D299s were notable by their absence from these two volumes when one leapt out at me from the cover of the second collection:

 

 

[Lightmoor catalogue thumbnail]

 

This photo is also on p. 114, with a date of 23 Oct 1923 given in the caption.

 

There are some good articles in these that I will have to read thoroughly - that on the City of Birmingham Gas Department in the first collection for instance. That volume also has a very nice photo of a Kingsbury collieries wagon. What isn't entirely evident is when the well-known green livery was adopted, or what the original Whateley & Hockley Hall livery might have been. The wagon in the photo is No. 700, apparently freshly painted in Kingsbury green, white-walled wheels and all,  by the gang posing in front of it. This is presumed to be No. 700 from the batch 401 - 700 supplied in 1894 by the Birmingham RC&W Co. That fits - it has a steel underframe, which seems to have been in vogue in the mid 90s.

[Rowsley17D]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thanks to @Rowsley17D taking pity on my compulsive completism and offering to sell me his surplus volumes - he says he has had from them all the information he requires - I now have the complete set!

 

 

If anybody is lacking Vols 3, 7-9, 11, 13 of Turton I have those surplus too!

 

PM me if interested.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Rowsley17D

[MarcD]

I'm short of 12 how much do you want for it?

Marc

[Rowsley17D]

7 minutes ago, MarcD said:

I'm short of 12 how much do you want for it?

Marc

 

PM sent

[Compound2632]

I'll just observe that Turton's Twelfth is still in print at £21 from the publisher...

[Rail-Online]

On 31/12/2022 at 16:01, Compound2632 said:

 

Although since only one end is visible, the one on the left could be an end-door D351. Not No. 18322 though, since looking at the non-brake side, the end door would be at the left-hand end. This differed from the usual arrangement for one-side-only braked end door wagons, which was that the brake lever was at the fixed end.

 

Other railways and POs considered that the risk to brake lever guides was more (when tipping up) at the end door end of the wagon.  I wonder why the MR 'knew best'?

 

Tony

[corneliuslundie]

I assume that this is referring to earlier years as the RCH standards seem always to have had right hand brake levers whether fixed end or not. The GWR originally had both levers the same end on its Dean-Churchward brake but later versions were at the right hand end of the wagon.

Of course, in earlier years there was often only a lever on one side anyway.

Jonathan

[Annie]

On 01/01/2023 at 05:54, Compound2632 said:

I'll just observe that Turton's Twelfth is still in print at £21 from the publisher...

Is that his symphony in A minor?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

Other railways and POs considered that the risk to brake lever guides was more (when tipping up) at the end door end of the wagon.  I wonder why the MR 'knew best'?

 

It is a curiosity, even more so as the Derby C&W Drawing Office made the drawings for the 1887 RCH Specification.

 

There is a fascinating volume in The National archives, RAIL 1080/386 "RCH Carriage & Waggon Superintendents Meetings Vol. 1" covering 1885-1901. The first part brings together all the documents relating to the establishment of the system of PO wagon inspection and registration, and drawing up of the specification.

 

The story begins with Maj. Marindin's report into an accident at Penistone on the M&SL on 1 Jan 1885, caused by the breaking of an axle of Shireoaks Colliery Co. wagon No. 218, in which he recommended a system of registration and regular inspection of PO wagons.

 

On 20 Feb 1885, Henry Calcraft, Permanent Secretary to the Board of Trade, wrote to the Chairman of the RCH General Managers’ Committee, enclosing Maj. Marindin’s report and drawing attention to the recommendations therein. The GMs' Committee considered this letter at its next meeting and resolved to form a Sub-Committee to address the question. This Sub-Committee was made up of the GMs of the "principal companies" (Caley, GE, GN, GW, L&Y, LNW, LSW, LCD, MSL, Mid, NB, NE, NS, SE) or their representatives and first met on 23 June 1885, with Grierson of the GW in the chair. The Sub-Committee resolved to pass the technical element of the question to a Committee of Locomotive and Carriage and Wagon Engineers. This met on 10 Sep 1885, with Clayton of the Midland in the chair. It agreed an outline specification but passed the preparation of specification and drawings to a Sub-Committee.

 

All these meetings had been at the RCH but the Sub-Committee of Engineers met at Derby, at 9 am on 8 Oct 1885, with Clayton in the chair. The other members were Drummond (Cal), Dean (GW), Attock (L&Y), Emmett (L&NW), and Sacré (MS&L).

 

They reviewed specifications and drawings for PO wagons already in use by the GW, L&Y, L&NW, and Taff Vale and agreed details for the RCH specification. Clayton undertook to complete the specification and prepare the drawings, with Dean to prepare modifications to the specification and provide drawings for iron or steel underframes.

 

The specification and drawings were reviewed by the full Committee of Locomotive and Carriage and Wagon Engineers on 23 Dec 1885, Clayton in the Chair. The specification was gone through clause by clause and various amendments made. 

 

This came back to a meeting of the Sub-Committee of General Managers on 9 March 1886, with Tennant of the North Eastern in the Chair. This meeting resolved to recommend the standard specification and system of regulation drawn up by the Committee of Locomotive and Carriage and Wagon Engineers.

 

There was then a period of correspondence and niggling over details of tyre profile and back-to-back... 

 

It was not until the GMs' Committee meeting of 10 Feb 1887, with Findlay of the LNW in the chair, that a letter from Clayton explaining the resolution of these niggles wa read and the Midland GM, Noble, was instructed to draft "a circular letter to parties sending private wagons on to the companies’ lines".

 

Finally, at the GMs' Committee on 4 Aug 1887, Noble's circular was adopted and passed to Mr. Dawson of the RCH for issue to all concerned.

 

Of course that wasn't the end of the story. Revisions were found necessary, with revised specifications issued annually for the following few years. One of the questions that the GMs' Sub-Committee was tasked with addressing was the legal basis for enforcing the specification and regulations. The Hon. Solicitors of the Railway Association were asked to advise but I have not found note of their response. Bound into RAIL 1080/386 is a full transcript of the hearing of Gloucester Wagon Co. v. Great Western Railway before the Railway and Canal Commissioners in 1894. This was a test case in support of the PO wagon builders, owners, and hirers' contention that the RCH specification required them to supply wagons of higher specification than those supplied by the railway companies themselves. The consequence of this case was the introduction of separate requirements for "reconstructed" wagons.

 

The final section of RAIL 1080/386, which I did not have time to examine closely, is mostly concerned with wagon brakes, in response to the Royal Commission on Accidents to Railway Servants, which reported in 1900.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

 

[Compound2632]

 

Hopping back a bit to Tony's photo:

  

On 24/12/2022 at 09:50, Rail-Online said:

Here is a nice 'edge of neg' photo of some Stephenson Clarke wagons at Battersea in 1920.

The interesting thing is they all appear to be loaded with bricks - the hard blue type with curved tops for 'edging'

 

The return loacation is Aberdare and someone has written 'Please' above the Empty to instruction!

 

Tony

 

 

The Stephenson Clarke wagon fleet seems to be too large a subject for authors to tackle in full, let alone the history of the company as a whole, shipping included. For example, there is no entry for the firm in the indexes to either John Arkell's or Simon Turner's books covering SECR and LBSCR territory, despite the latter company at least contracting with it for loco coal.

 

We've had some discussion upthread, with input from @wagonman going back to 2017. No. 3981 in the foreground is one of the batch of 500 built by the Gloucester RC&W Co., Nos. 3529-4000 from which were registered with the GWR. These were to Gloucester's standard design; it appears that Stephenson Clarke provided a sample wagon, No. 1006 built by Harrison Camm. This wagon has the features of Stephenson Clarke's standard design, with external diagonals running from the bottom cross tie-bolt to the top corners, crossing a timber diagonal running the other way - unfortunately the photographer was not quite high up enough to give us sight of these. This was a development of the body style used for the company's pre-1887-built dumb buffer wagons, though these lacked the external diagonals.

 

Nos. 4321, 4032, and the wagon next to the latter, number ending in 2, all* lack the external diagonals and 4032 has the end door hinge bar mounted off extensions of the internal end knees rather than off extensions of the external end knee washer strap. No. 4032 also has the side door catches mounted lower down the top plank than No. 3981. No. 5876 in the background has the end door hinge mounted below the top of the sides. Presumably these are later wagons than the Gloucester batch. Is this an abandonment of Stephenson Clarke's own design, perhaps in response to revised RCH specifications, or are they perhaps hired wagons?

 

As to the brick loads, they seem to be rather haphazard rather than neatly packed. That might be acceptable for hard engineering brick. The density quoted by one supplier for modern brick of this type is 2,200 kg/m3 = 137 lb/cubic ft. The volume of the wagon is around 400 cubic ft, so a full wagon-load would weigh around 24 tons, well in excess its 10 ton capacity. So even if very loosely packed, with bricks up to the rave they would be overloaded. 

 

Was there any building work at Battersea around 1920 that would have called for this type of brick? Or could it be brick of a less dense type, perhaps for firebox arches? Or not brick at all but wood blocks?

 

EDIT: it's been pointed out to me that on the wagon xxx2, the end of the diagonal can just be made out where it overlaps the end knee washer strap.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Compound2632

[Nick Holliday]

On 03/01/2023 at 10:12, Compound2632 said:

The Stephenson Clarke wagon fleet seems to be too large a subject for authors to tackle in full, let alone the history of the company as a whole, shipping included. For example, there is no entry for the firm in the indexes to either John Arkell's or Simon Turner's books covering SECR and LBSCR territory, despite the latter company at least contracting with it for loco coal.

There are several pages on Stephenson Clarke in Simon's book, page 15 onwards, including a drawing. He has confused things by referencing them as Clarke Stephenson!

Len Tavender in his Private Traders Wagons book has a brief but succinct precis of the CS shipping fleet, and an outline of their earlier wagons.

On 03/01/2023 at 10:12, Compound2632 said:

We've had some discussion upthread, with input from @wagonman going back to 2017. No. 3981 in the foreground is one of the batch of 500 built by the Gloucester RC&W Co., Nos. 3529-4000 from which were registered with the GWR. These were to Gloucester's standard design; it appears that Stephenson Clarke provided a sample wagon, No. 1006 built by Harrison Camm. This wagon has the features of Stephenson Clarke's standard design, with external diagonals running from the bottom cross tie-bolt to the top corners, crossing a timber diagonal running the other way - unfortunately the photographer was not quite high up enough to give us sight of these. This was a development of the body style used for the company's pre-1887-built dumb buffer wagons, though these lacked the external diagonals.

To save people trawling through this topic, and perhaps finding the pictures missing, Simon Turner covered this batch of wagons extensively in LBSCR Modellers' Digest No. 7, which can be accessed on line, and is a thoroughly good read too.

I have to confess I am baffled about "crossing a timber diagonal running the other way" as I thought it was a regular iron/steel washer strip on the inside, but perhaps I have misunderstood your comment.

On 03/01/2023 at 10:12, Compound2632 said:

Nos. 4321, 4032, and the wagon next to the latter, number ending in 2, all* lack the external diagonals and 4032 has the end door hinge bar mounted off extensions of the internal end knees rather than off extensions of the external end knee washer strap. No. 4032 also has the side door catches mounted lower down the top plank than No. 3981. No. 5876 in the background has the end door hinge mounted below the top of the sides. Presumably these are later wagons than the Gloucester batch. Is this an abandonment of Stephenson Clarke's own design, perhaps in response to revised RCH specifications, or are they perhaps hired wagons?

Simon and Len may have covered this between them, but I haven't checked.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

There are several pages on Stephenson Clarke in Simon's book, page 15 onwards, including a drawing. He has confused things by referencing them as Clarke Stephenson!

 

Ah, that explains my confusion, as I was sure I had seen something in one or the other but when writing yesterday I had only checked the latter part of the index in Arkell's and Turner's books. I note Turner's qualification of what her writes: "It would be impossible to chart the whole of the Stephenson Clarke fleet over the long period of their wagon operation".

 

He has the well-known photos of No. 3663 from the Gloucester batch and No. 1006 built by Harrison & Camm in 1899 and supplied to Gloucester as a pattern wagon. (These photos are also in the LBSCR Modellers' Digest article.) The latter was registered with the LNWR; unfortunately there is only very patchy survival of records of LNWR wagon registrations, so as far as I'm aware it's not known how large that batch was. However he also has a splendid photo of Nos. 477 and 1791, dumb buffered wagons from a batch of "some 1,500" - or 1,400 in the text - built by Harrison & Camm in 1886-9.  These have the same body style as the Harrison & Camm / Gloucester sprung buffer wagons but without the external diagonals; two of this type can be seen in one of my favourite Huntley & Palmer photos, No. 1414 and one other, along with sprung buffer wagon No. 2168:

 

 

I'm confident I have seen a photo of a Stephenson Clarke wagon of this type with timber internal diagonals...

 

3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Len Tavender in his Private Traders Wagons book has a brief but succinct precis of the CS shipping fleet, and an outline of their earlier wagons.

 

Yes, but from the wagon point of view, illustrative of general development but no help in tying down wagons types, quantities, and numbering to builders and dates, as his sketches are from photos of wagons in traffic.

 

3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

To save people trawling through this topic, and perhaps finding the pictures missing, Simon Turner covered this batch of wagons extensively in LBSCR Modellers' Digest No. 7, which can be accessed on line, and is a thoroughly good read too.

 

All photos posted by me have been reinstated. I also have an article by Simon with the same drawing, plus a Gloucester official of No. 4000, in Modelling Railways Illustrated, Vol. 2 No. 11 (July 1995) - it being the reason I bought that number of the magazine, when I was buying railway modelling magazines very selectively. I wouldn't describe either article as extensive, but the 1995 article does have more information about the company in general, along with the statement, apropos of wagons of the type of the Gloucester batch: "it is certain that several thousands of wagons were built to this design until the twelve tonner became the standard in around 1910."

 

No. 4000 has a V on the centre of the bottom plank of the side door, stated to indicate bottom doors, so not all the Gloucester wagons were identical. Another instance of this is to be seen on No. 1226, which along with its un-V'd brother No. 1378 was involved in a mishap at Mirfield on 24 September 1912:

 

 

I'm curious about this as there were evidently a great many PO and railway company wagons with bottom doors - notably the Midland's D299 and D351 wagons - that had bottom doors with no such marking; indeed a V, or at least \ /, indicated a hoppered wagon. Clearly that doesn't apply to Nos. 1226 and 4000 here, since they both have an end door.

 

Nos. 1226 and 1378 are presumably from different builders; those on 1226 are the Ellis patent type, which appear on Harrison & Camm's No. 1006 and the Gloucester wagons but No. 1378 has round-bottomed axleboxes.

[jwealleans]

Something of a thread diversion, if I may?   I've had these part complete wagons kicking about for some time (years in the case of the open) and I haven't been able to identify them.   I thought the van was the smaller GC type which Dave Geen did, possibly with incorrect axleboxes fitted, but the latching arrangement on the doors is wrong.   Anyone recognise them?

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

59 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Something of a thread diversion, if I may?   I've had these part complete wagons kicking about for some time (years in the case of the open) and I haven't been able to identify them.   I thought the van was the smaller GC type which Dave Geen did, possibly with incorrect axleboxes fitted, but the latching arrangement on the doors is wrong.   Anyone recognise them?

 

How long are they, and what wheelbase? That ought to narrow the field of candidate prototypes, at least. Are they perhaps D&S?

Edited January 5, 2023 by Compound2632

[Darryl Tooley]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Anyone recognise them?

Here's a likely candidate.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/frd012/

 

D

[jwealleans]

Thanks, Darryl, that's sorted that one.  That one came from a bunch of mainly 51L, mainly LMS wagon kits, so it makes perfect sense.

 

I'll measure the van today but it's not very far dimensionally from the 17' GC van kit I thought it was.

Edited January 6, 2023 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

On 31/12/2022 at 16:24, Compound2632 said:

Thanks to @Rowsley17D taking pity on my compulsive completism and offering to sell me his surplus volumes - he says he has had from them all the information he requires - I now have the complete set!

 

Spoke too soon. I get Lightmoor Press' monthly email newsletter. The January issue came today, listing among the "coming soon" highlights Private Owner Wagons: A Sixteenth Collection.

[MarcD]

I just took delivery off vol 12 this morning thinking I had got the lot. Oh well. One day I might get round to building so PO wagons.

Marc