More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Here is a nice 'edge of neg' photo of some Stephenson Clarke wagons at Battersea in 1920.

 

That'll please a reader of this topic who is an enthusiast for Stephenson Clarke wagons. Some of those are from the turn-of-the-century Gloucester batch, I think.

[Compound2632]

The composer Herbert Howells lived in Worcester in the years immediately after the Great War. It was there, in 1919, that he composed A Spotless Rose, which rapidly became a staple of the Christmas repertoire of Anglican choral foundations. Howells said that the melody came to him while watching the trains shunting in the Midland line, onto which his cottage backed, 

 

On Christmas morning, the clanging of buffers and squealing of brakes, the whistling of engines and the shouting of shunters would all have been silenced:

 

 

[Penlan]

21 hours ago, John-Miles said:

Very nice of you Sandy to quote me as being an expert on N&B wagons but you seem to know  more than I do.

John, any knowledge I have is mere memories now as I handed all my work over to our dear friend near Malvern.
I spent a lot of time in the 70's and 80's at Kew PRO going through the relevant files and also Birmingham Records Office for the Accident Reports on the N&B.
I do however recall some 40+ years ago seeing the edge of a N&B van behind a N&B loco in a photograph, the lettering style was more Times Roman Serif than block letters, which instantly ruled out the N. B. Rly.
In the 1920 RCH survey at Bristol of the different Co's wagons there, there was 1 (one) loaded N&B wagon, I know that information is of no import, but thought I would throw it in.
I suppose it's possible with the updated RMweb software that's been lost, so:

RCH Wagon Count - July 1920 - Bristol.xls

Edited December 25, 2022 by Penlan

[jamie92208]

31 minutes ago, Penlan said:

John, any knowledge I have is mere memories now as I handed all my work over to our dear friend near Malvern.
I spent a lot of time in the 70's and 80's at Kew PRO going through the relevant files and also Birmingham Records Office for the Accident Reports on the N&B.
I do however recall some 40+ years ago seeing the edge of a N&B van behind a N&B loco in a photograph, the lettering style was more Times Roman Serif than block letters, which instantly ruled out the N. B. Rly.
In the 1920 RCH survey at Bristol of the different Co's wagons there, there was 1 (one) loaded N&B wagon, I know that information is of no import, but thought I would throw it in.
I suppose it's possible with the updated RMweb software that's been lost, so:

RCH Wagon Count - July 1920 - Bristol.xls 26 kB · 4 downloads

That's fascinating.   The single East and West Yorkshire Union Railway wagon sparks  my interest.  It would probably have been quarried stone of some kind from Armitages.  

 

On a seasonal note I opened avprsent from under thectree and a pre grouping wagon kit emerged. Not British though.  A long out of production kit in 7mm for a metre gauge flat wagon. Probably rating from the very early 1900'sl(The protype). Nice to look at.  Thecstation still existscin the village.

 

Jamie

[sir douglas]

happened across this last night

 

"Imported timber, Newport docks 1938"

http://www.newportpast.com/gallery/photos/php/photo_page.php?search= &search2=yyyyyy&pos=1034

[Penlan]

22 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

The single East and West Yorkshire Union Railway wagon sparks  my interest.  It would probably have been quarried stone of some kind from Armitages. 

Because of it's obscurity? I decided to have one on the layout....
Specifically for when Penlan was at York Exhibition in 2009.
The NLR wagon is in memory of the late Geoff Williams (Aylesbury). 
.

[MarcD]

I have few photos of them. A few in Yorkshire as you would expect but two in Barmouth Junction. All 5planks with steel under frames.

Marc

[jamie92208]

8 hours ago, Penlan said:

Because of it's obscurity? I decided to have one on the layout....
Specifically for when Penlan was at York Exhibition in 2009.
The NLR wagon is in memory of the late Geoff Williams (Aylesbury). 
.

It eas a strange little railway, largely controlled by the Charlesworth family who were coal owners. Armitages who had quarries and brickworks also had their fingers in the pie.  There were some coke works which would provide tar and other chemical traffic.  It was unique in one way that the whole system fitted into one police section. I was posted there as a rookie constable and drove pandas round, or walked and cycled along almost all the trackbeds. I've got a 7mm wagon.

 

Jamie

Edited December 26, 2022 by jamie92208

[sir douglas]

i think the only photo ive ever seen of a E&WYUR is the HMRS one though i'm sure ive seen one in a photo of Blaenau but i havent been able to find it again for years

[jamie92208]

There is a drawing of a wagon in the history of the line by D L Franks .  There is also one set of transfers on one of the HMRS sheets.

 

Jamie

[MarcD]

Jamie 

Which sheet? as I have one of my kits to do.

Marc

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

Jamie 

Which sheet? as I have one of my kits to do.

Marc

I'llj have a look. I think it's one of the pre grouping freight wagons sets. 

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

On 27/12/2022 at 09:27, MarcD said:

Jamie 

Which sheet? as I have one of my kits to do.

Marc

Sadly I can't help Marc.  I've been through all my transfers and also trawled the HMRS and Powsides websies with no joy.  There is a drawing in the Franks book which I would be happy to scan and send you.

 

Jamie

Edited December 28, 2022 by jamie92208

[MarcD]

No worries

Marc

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Sadly I can't help Marc.  I've been through all my transfers and also trawled the HMRS and Powsides websies with no joy.  There is a drawing in the Franks book which I would be happy to scan and send you.

 

It is odd that although the HMRS transfer range includes such snappily-named sheets as "LMS English pre-Grouping goods vehicle insignia (except LNWR)" there isn't one for LNER English constituents. 

[MarcD]

It's something that has puzzled me for some years. The LMS sheet only includes English companies, apart from the LNWR. The Scottish sheet contains LMS and LNER companies The SR sheet contains LBSC, LSWR, SECR, SER and LDCR but not PD&SWJ or IOW. But as us say the English LNER companies and any GWR constituents are nowhere to be seen. The only other exceptions are CLC and the M&GN which do appear on the LNER sheet. In the Defence the transfers were originally produced by PC models and they were bought by the HMRS.

Marc

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, MarcD said:

The only other exceptions are CLC and the M&GN which do appear on the LNER sheet. 

 

Those two being post as well as pre-grouping entities within the LNER sphere of influence.

[corneliuslundie]

I couldn't find the company in the HMRS range either. The other problem has been that both suppliers of HMRS Pressfix/Methfix transfers have ceased doing such business. it has taken a long tome to find a new supplier, but there now is one, and stocks are being replenished. Though naturally they are a lot more expensive than transfers printed a decade ago,.

Yes, the Welsh transfers are a problem. Tony Miller used to market some for wagons for several South Wales companies, and the two Chris's also had some, but neither of these ranges are now available. Cambrian is well covered by Camkits (see the WRRC website). For the Rhymney i end up cannibalising pregrouping sheets which have some Rs. The question is whether there would be a large market for transfers for such as the Llanelly & Mynyddd Mawr or Gwendraeth Valleys. But I can see a market for Taff Vale, Barry and Rhymney transfers, possibly also Brecon & Merthyr, at least for wagons. Another problem I have is no transfers suitable for RR carriage lining. But that is rather a long way from Midland Railway wagons!

Thoughts?

Jonathan

[MarcD]

I have tried the waterslide transfers for the Cambrian not great as they require a uniform surface with a gloss paint finish to go on and most wagons have a mat finish and in 7mm there is the additional issue of getting them to go over strapping and not cracking.  I use the HMRS  SR sheet for the R's for the Rhymney. 

 

Marc

 

[fulton]

52 minutes ago, MarcD said:

I have tried the waterslide transfers for the Cambrian not great as they require a uniform surface with a gloss paint finish to go on and most wagons have a mat finish and in 7mm there is the additional issue of getting them to go over strapping and not cracking.  I use the HMRS  SR sheet for the R's for the Rhymney. 

 

Marc

 

Apply to a gloss surface, then matt varnish after, I have found the various brands of setting solution to work well, using a brush, very carefully, to help the decal conform to an irregular surface when soft.

[Compound2632]

The festive season encompasses my birthday as well as Christmas. I had thrown out a few suggestions which were treated as an instruction rather than a list to choose from:

 

 

This completes my collection of the Keith Turton series, with the exception of the out-of-print first and second collections. This is something of an embarrassment, as I no longer have a default purchase to fall back on when browsing the Lightmoor stand at exhibitions, if there is no other temptation to which I fall prey!

 

The third volume of Peter Tatlow series completes my set of the volumes covering the LNER constituents; I feel I need go no further there, for now. The first two volumes between them covered those Midland satellites the Cheshire Lines, Hull & Barnsley, and Midland & Great Northern Joint; the third volume covers a company which, whilst the second most important LNER constituent, was as closely allied with the Midland as with the LNER's English constituents.

 

The Pictorial Supplement to LMS Locomotive Profile No. 15 is a delight. I'm not usually much enamoured of large express passenger engines but to my mind a rebuilt Royal Scot is the epitome of concentrated, hunched-up power, besides which any pacific, even one of Coleman's, looks lanky and over-extended.

 

Now the first thing I do with any PO wagon book is go looking for Midland wagons. Here are my spottings, along with a few random observations:

 

Turton's Tenth

 

p. 127, at Stanton Iron Works, distant views of two D299s both with 10A axleboxes. The view is across the Erewash Canal, with some Great Northern opens and a further Midland wagon alongside the canal; as far as I can work out the date is before the Great War but after c. 1900, when the works was expanded. 

 

p. 128, at Pleasley Colliery after 1906, four D299s, three with 10A and one with 8A axleboxes. One has the height of the sides increased by about 1 ft using sheets of corrugated iron, and loaded with some fine material - ash or sand? 

 

Both these locations are at the heart of the Midland system so there is no surprise to find the company supplying wagons alongside the the various firms' own wagons. 

 

pp. 139-143, Tredegar Iron & Coal Co. No Midland wagons in sight, but this firm is on my list of carriage sales - four 6-wheel thirds before the Great War at £65 each and four more plus two 6-wheel third brakes in November 1919 at £190 each - evidence of the inflationary effect of the war.

 

Turton's Eleventh

 

pp. 13-26, Baldwins, Swansea. This large steel and coal company bought nine covered goods wagons in 1911, built by the Gloucester RC&W Co., marked Empty to King's Dock Works. This was the site of the company's tinplate works. My list of wagon sales includes 24 old covered goods wagons sold to Baldwins in 1911 and a further 12 in 1914, all at £22.10/- each. The Kings Dock tinplate works was built in 1910, according to a souvenir tinplate booklet marking the visit of the King and Queen in 1920:

http://www.swanseadocks.co.uk/docksnewsite/baldwins.html.

So it would appear that the Gloucester vans were for the transport of the manufactured tinplate - given the Empty to instruction. But whether they ran on the main line or were purely for internal use is unclear; it was a condition of sale of the Midland vans that they were for internal use only.

 

p. 80, Grahams No. 9 Colliery, Sirhowy. Not mentioned in the caption, a LNWR D64 loco coal wagon standing on its own - though the wagons further up the sidings may be more of the same. Also reproduced is an advert boasting that Graham's Navigation steam coal was on the Admiralty list and also on the lists of the principal English and Continental Railway Companies. I wonder if the L&NWR Society Study Centre holds any loco department coal ordering documents?

 

p. 118, Trowbarrow Lime Works, Silverdale, on the Furness Railway main line a few miles from Carnforth, before the Great War (there's a dumb-buffered peaked-roof lime wagon). A solitary D299 with 8A axleboxes.

 

p. 156, West Cumberland By Products Ltd. A Chas Roberts 12 ton rectangular tank wagon of 1911, very like the Slater's kit but with oil axleboxes, red with black ironwork and only identified by the cast plate on the solebar - which we are told was not at all unusual. That's good news to one who has the Slater's kit built and painted but not lettered!

 

p. 160, several D299s and a D362 or D363 van in postcards of Oxenhope - hardly surprising. The page is in an article on the coal factor Michael Whitaker but of more interest to me, from the point of view of the Skipton mineral register, are the wagons of Pope & Pearson, and Featherstone Colliery.

 

Turton's Twelfth

 

p. 29, Clay Cross Co, D299s in coal traffic; no news here!

 

p. 68, location not stated, though on the SE&CR, in 1922. A D299 with 10A axleboxes carrying the number C266 on the second plank up at the RH end and an illegible four-line inscription over the bottom two planks at the LH end. The caption states the C1 - C500 were hired from the Midland RC&W Co. by the SE&CR. There is additional data on C266 since it was recorded missing in an RCH circular of December 1920 but had been located and returned to Kidbrooke by the following March. G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 3: SECR (OPC, 2000) p. 57 simply notes "On the subject of hired wagons... a batch of Midland Railway five-plank opens during World War 1, numbered in a 'C' prefixed series, The only vehicle so far noted was No. C13, painted red oxide but lettered SECR, in 1919." As I've noted before, I'd not found any reference to these wagons being obtained directly from the Midland; neither is there any record of sales of old wagons to the Midland RC&W Co. The latter must therefore have obtained these wagons from J.F. Wake of Darlington, either purchasing them or hiring them and re-letting them to the SE&CR. I wonder of the inscription on the LH end of C266 restricts its sphere of operation to SE&CR lines only, as a way of getting round the conditions of sale by the Midland?

 

p. 87, Hoyland Colliery, several D299s in the background. Date not given.

 

p. 96, a wagon pile-up at Waleswood on the MSL / GC, featured for the Kiveton wagon at the bottom of the pile. But the really fascinating object is the wagon upside-down on top of it, on which a Midland-style R can be seen. It's unlike any Midland wagon I know of, having four planks and well-rounded corner plates with a single column of bolts on each face. Next to it is a wagon of very similar construction, standing on its end, differing only in having end pillars that extend below the headstocks. This wagon is a PO - it has an oval owners plate on the solebar but no discernable lettering on the sides. Both have sprung buffers and a single Scotch brake, iron shoe with push-rod, probably.

 

Railways Archive records two accidents at Waleswood, in 1885 and 1907. The 1907 accident was the subject of a report by Lt.-Col. von Donop; this is clearly not that accident, which was caused by the failure of an old North Staffs wagon (vide G.F. Chadwick, North Staffordshire Wagons (Wild Swan, 1993) p. 24.) So is it the 1885 accident, for which there does not appear to be a report, or some other pile-up?

 

The Midland wagon could be a bought-up private owner wagon. These are thought of as being dumb buffered but as far as I can see that's a presumption. Alternatively, it might be a hired wagon. In October 1888 and again in October 1889, wagons were hired as the company could not supply enough to collieries, 1,095 in the first year and then 945. This was followed by orders for several thousand wagons as additions to stock, rather than simple renewal of bought-up ex-PO wagons. These hires are recorded in the Traffic Committee minutes. I have yet to look earlier than August 1888, it may well be that there was hiring of wagons in earlier years - in fact some of the 1888 wagons are recorded as being re-hired. The 1888 hire included 450 wagons from the Birmingham Wagon Co., and the same number, but not the same quantity, of the different capacities (6, 7, and 8 tons), in 1889. This tallies, but not exactly, with some information given in L. Tavender, Coal Trade Wagons (L. Tavender, 1991) p. 79, derived from Birmingham Wagon Co. records at Staffordshire Record Office. From this, it is apparent that the hired wagons were given Midland numbers. 

 

p. 117, an interesting pair of Gloucester RC&W Co. officials from 1911, showing a wagon before and after conversion from dumb buffers. 

 

pp. 118-122, article on Pope & Pearson, West Riding Colliery, Altofts. Unfortunately none of the photos are of the wagons built for Pope & Pearson by Beadman...

 

Tatlow Vol. 3

 

Harking back to a discussion upthread about pig iron, I note that Tatlow states that the use of wagons specifically designed and designated for pig iron was confined to the Central Belt of Scotland, i.e. the North British and Caledonian Railways.

 

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

Good to see that the Scots pictorial supplement is finally finding its way into Christmas stockings. We finished it before Covid struck and it's taken all this time to appear.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Good to see that the Scots pictorial supplement is finally finding its way into Christmas stockings. We finished it before Covid struck and it's taken all this time to appear.

 

I did post an observation on a couple of photos in the Scots book on the Wishlist Poll topic:

 

"Apropos of LNWR carriages, I forget what the poll suggestion is, but to my mind the 57 ft elliptical-roofed "toplight" carriages and/or the preceding "traditional Wolverton" style carriages, identical in practically all respects apart from the sides, would be the most commercially viable, since they survived well into the early BR era. I've been leafing through one of my Christmas presents, J. Jennison and D. Hunt, Pictorial Supplement to LMS Locomotive Profile No. 15 The 'Royal Scots' (Wild Swan, 2022). On p. 36 is an 1949 photo of a down express leaving Hellifield. The first carriage is an LMS P1 third, followed by three toplights, another P1 third, a further P1 or pre-grouping carriage, and five P3 carriages. Possibly the older carriages are strengtheners.

 

"But to my mind even more interestingly, on p. 40 is a March 1950 photo of an up express approaching Rugby. The leading carriage is a "traditional Wolverton"-panelled 57 ft third, with some lower panels replaced by boards but otherwise looking smartly turned out in fully-lined livery, which was presumably applied no more recently the 1934. The only concession to nationalisation is an M prefix added to its number."

Edited December 28, 2022 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

I'm just missing Vol12 and I have the lot. Very useful. 

I  haven't ordered my present yet still haven't made up my mind yet. 

Marc

[Dave Hunt]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I did post an observation on a couple of photos in the Scots book on the Wishlist Poll topic:

 

Your comments are interesting and just show what can be picked out of photographs by people with different levels of knowledge in different areas. In this case, of course, John and I were just concentrating on the locomotives but in all honesty wouldn't have the knowledge to pick out the detail of the carriages that you have. And that doesn't take into account details of the track, infrastructure, background details etc. My reason for stating all this is to illustrate how difficult it can be to produce a meaningful caption that tries to include all the points of interest in a photograph. Some years ago Bob Essery and I were approached by a person who had quite a large collection of photographs and wanted us to arrange to have them all catalogued, the descriptions to include everything of interest in them, not just the primary subject. We took a random sample of, IIRC, twenty of the pictures and asked several of our acquaintances who had expertise in various aspects of railways to write about what they saw. It turned out that each photograph required hundreds or even, in some instances, thousands of words to achieve what the collection's owner wanted so in the end the catalogue was never completed.  

 

Dave