More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Regular readers may have noticed a lack of actual modelling here!

 

The offspring have sprung back - both still some way from properly springing off - and reclaimed their desks in warm parts of the house, leaving nowhere convenient to work without being chilled through in this cold snap. This isn't helped by leaving all the internal doors open downstairs, apparently necessary to allow free circulation of the cat. Not that she's circulating at all, having spent all day curled up on her favourite cushion up against a radiator.

The same door issue here, though our two cats are prowling around constantly in this cold weather, despite the availability of warm radiators…

 

in any case, modelling is having to defer to a big work project due 31st December, on top of the usual writing of Xmas cards. I’m looking forward to January!

 

Nick. 

[Compound2632]

The failure of Eileen's Emporium is a blow. I'd been on the point of ordering but had found the website down.

 

[Andy Hayter]

Indeed very sad news.  I have supported Eileen emporium - or rather they have supported me in my endeavours - since the times when Eileen was the king pin.  

[magmouse]

Gosh, that's quite a shock. Like others, Eileen's has been a very valuable supply of all sorts of bits and pieces. 

 

Nick.

[Craigw]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

The same door issue here, though our two cats are prowling around constantly in this cold weather, despite the availability of warm radiators…

 

in any case, modelling is having to defer to a big work project due 31st December, on top of the usual writing of Xmas cards. I’m looking forward to January!

 

Nick. 

 

I have some experience with regards to feline assistants.

[Compound2632]

In the absence of modelling from me, here's some inventive use of the Slaters kit for the Midland coke wagon:

@jamie92208 will appreciate the comment in reply:

 

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In the absence of modelling from me, here's some inventive use of the Slaters kit for the Midland coke wagon:

@jamie92208 will appreciate the comment in reply:

 

Those look good. For those that don't appreciate the innuendo, I built a ventilated van with the sides upside down.  Not a single rivet counter has ever noticed at shows though.  I've never measured one but it looks as if the sides of the coke wagon are the same height as a standard van.  More standardisation in the wagon works perhaps.

 

Jamie

 

 

[Compound2632]

Following on from the dismal news of Eileen's Emporium folding, a bit of brighter news. It appears that Cambrian have bought the tooling for the original Cooper Craft range of kits from Mr Dunn:

http://www.cooper-craft.co.uk/.

This may well put an end to my bad Ebay 4-plank addiction! But I do ask myself, does the world really need any more provender wagon kits?

[41516]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It appears that Cambrian have bought the tooling for the original Cooper Craft range of kits from Mr Dunn

 

As much as I'd like to hope Cambrian have the opportunity to retool the underframes for the old CC kits, have Cambrian released anything new since they changed hands a few years ago? 

 

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Eileen's Emporium folding

 

With it the Bill Bedford etches?  Time will tell I suppose...

[Compound2632]

I should clarify: the Cooper Craft 4 mm range. The 7 mm scale wagons have been with Slaters for some time. If I was Slaters I'd be on the blower to Cambrian to say that as they can obviously edit the website, cold they take the rolling gallery of images of Slaters kits down!

 

2 minutes ago, 41516 said:

As much as I'd like to hope Cambrian have the opportunity to retool the underframes for the old CC kits, have Cambrian released anything new since they changed hands a few years ago? 

 

When was the Herring done?

[41516]

You've made me look.

Herring - 2015. Ownership changed hands in 2017

 

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, 41516 said:

You've made me look.

Herring - 2015. Ownership changed hands in 2017

 

Thanks. You realise I wrote that simply to revel in my delight at the surrealism of the question, if taken out of context!

[41516]

A (gulf) red Herring?

[Mark Saunders]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thanks. You realise I wrote that simply to revel in my delight at the surrealism of the question, if taken out of context!

Id like a modified version to produce an Ebbw Vale iron ore hopper.

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Id like a modified version to produce an Ebbw Vale iron ore hopper.

 

When the kit came out, there was an article in MRJ about converting it to an earlier Great Western diagram; there was also a very similar Great North of Scotland ballast wagon. It looked as if they'd produced a pre-grouping wagon by accident. So what do you need to do to turn it into this South Walian wagon?

[Mark Saunders]

58 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

When the kit came out, there was an article in MRJ about converting it to an earlier Great Western diagram; there was also a very similar Great North of Scotland ballast wagon. It looked as if they'd produced a pre-grouping wagon by accident. So what do you need to do to turn it into this South Walian wagon?

Without looking the main difference is the brake gear and recess in the hopper for the vacuum cylinder.

[John-Miles]

1102 class kits picked up yesterday, so they do exist. First impressions: the etches are smaller than you would expect (mostly based on experience of Gibson Kits) but incredible neat and very little waste. The footplate comes in two bits, one overlaying the other. I suspect this is a wheeze to get around footplates in 4mm always being overscale thickness. The upper footplate layer has upstands to locate the tanks and bunker which is a good idea. The boiler and fittings are a one piece resin casting which saves a lot of work. I can't see any safety valve columns and levers, probably missed them. The instructions are comprehensive. Looks like a really good kit. I have the Ultrascale wheels all ready so just need motor and gearbox.

[Compound2632]

@Sithlord75's at it again with an exquisite 2 mm model of a Midland D326 40 ft deep case wagon:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64091, deep case wagon number 111790.]  

 

@Nick Mitchell asked:

 

11 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

Now... what sort of tricky load could it be carrying?

 

Which got me burrowing. There is an article by Bob Essery in Midland Record No. 22 in which Drg. 2364 for lot 613 is reproduced but otherwise little added to what is in Midland Wagons at D326 beyond some corrections to numbering, from Andy Brown. There is an original of Drg. 2364 at 1.5 in/ft scale in the Midland Railway Study Centre C&W drawings collection, item 88-D0246.

 

Essery also reports diagram D325 for the six 40 ft deep case wagons of lot 508 of 1901, built to Drg. 1523 which unfortunately does not survive in the MRSC collection. These were additions to stock: the C&W Committee minutes record these as being authorised on 4 April; lot 508 was entered in the lot list dated 17 April 1901 but Drg. 1523 was dated 1 October 1901 in the drawing register. In the lot list, lot 508 is described as "40 ft deep case wagon as Lot 280". 

 

Lot 280 was entered in the lot list on 8 May 1891, described as "40 ft case wagons" to Drg. 507. That drawing is dated 31 Jan 1881 and described in the C&W drawing register as "40ft Skeleton Wagons to Carry Large Cases"; it had previously been used for two wagons built to lot 124, 14 Jan 1885, and one to lot 56, 19 Feb 1881. Drg. 507 is also absent from the MRSC collection. These three earlier wagons must have been built as renewals since they are not mentioned in the minutes but the six of lot 288 were additions to stock and so appear in the minutes. Financial authoristation was recorded on 1 May 1891, the Traffic Committee minute of 15 March recording the requisition reads "Resolved that six 40 feet wagons for the conveyance of large cases of wagon work for shipment be provided in accordance with the drawing now submitted, at an estimated cost of £1278, and the matter was referred to the Carriage and Wagon Committee." So that at least tells us what traffic these wagons were intended for.

 

One has to suppose that by 1901 the C&W Drawing Office came to have doubts about the suitability of a 20-year-old design, hence the new drawing 1523.

 

But this story is somewhat muddied in Midland Wagons by lots 50, 124, and 280 being illustrated by D324, which shows a 6 ton iron skeleton wagon, 32 ft 2 in long over headstocks, whereas the minutes authorising lot 280, and the lot list entries for all three lots clearly describe them as 40 ft vehicles and the tabulation of wagon stock at 31 Dec 1894 lists all nine as being of 5 ton capacity. D324 is illustrated by several photos, two of which show wagons at the Gloucester RC&W Co.'s works, loaded with narrow gauge workmens' carriages for Dinorwic Quarries. Plate 304 is an official photo of No. 18278 which I am confident is the photo listed in the Index of Photographs of Wagon Stock [Midland Wagons plate 14] as p.53, Tram Car Truck, 6 built, 6 tons capacity, 32' 2" over headstocks, tare 6.4.0, lot 92, built 1883. This lot was entered in the list dated 20 Apr 1883, to Drg. 584, described as "Tram Car Trucks". That drawing was entered in the register on 10 Apr, titled "Truck to Carry Tram Cars" but is another that does not survive in the MRSC collection. As far as I can see, lot 92 is not mentioned in Midland Wagons.        

 

The whole question of Midland wagons for the conveyance of tramcars and tram engines is another complicated subject!

Edited December 15, 2022 by Compound2632

[41516]

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The whole question of Midland wagons for the conveyance of tramcars and tram engines is another complicated subject!

 

I can only chip in and say with the dates are well before the creation of the Midland owned Burton and Ashby Light Railways, which opened in 1906, so they are for everyone else's trams.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, 41516 said:

I can only chip in and say with the dates are well before the creation of the Midland owned Burton and Ashby Light Railways, which opened in 1906, so they are for everyone else's trams.

 

Indeed. The tram engine trolleys, D312, coincide with Kitson of Leeds moving into the manufacture of steam tram engines around 1884 and there were omnibus / tramcar trucks from time immemorial.

[65179]

Has anyone seen a picture of a D326 case wagon in use other than the one in Midland Wagons Vol.2.

 

Thanks,

Simon

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Has anyone seen a picture of a D326 case wagon in use other than the one in Midland Wagons Vol.2.

 

Not "in use", but there's the photo I used in my post above. Here it is again for your convenience:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64091]

 

The Study Centre collection has two other photos of the same wagon, 88-G3/20 and 88-G3/21; I expect one is the same as the above and the other a view from a different angle.

 

The Study Centre also has the photo used in Midland Wagons, plate 277:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64613]

 

I haven't tracked down the loaded wagon in Plate 278 but there are two different photos in the Midland Record article, both showing, I think, the same wagon No. 619 from lot 820, built 1913, in service c. 1920, laden with a steel fabrication in an open-work wooden crate. They're attributed to "Collection R.J. Essery" so we'll have to wait until that has been catalogued and made available! 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Compound2632

[Mark Saunders]

On 12/12/2022 at 13:47, Mark Saunders said:

Without looking the main difference is the brake gear and recess in the hopper for the vacuum cylinder.

 

 

[Compound2632]

@Mark Saunders, when were those built?

[Compound2632]

Deep case wagons again.

 

It has dawned on me that the three photos in Midland Wagons, plates 275-7, illustrate the three different drawings, Drgs. 507, 1523, and 2364. Plate 275, wagon No. 1525, is in the style of the official photos of the 1880s and corresponds to No. 55 in the Index of Photographs of Wagon Stock [Midland Wagons, plate 14], Long Case Wagon, 3 built, to carry 5 tons, 40' 0" long over headstocks, tare 5.19.3, lot 56 built 1881. Lot 56 was for a single vehicle, presumably this one, so the quantity of 3 built presumably includes the two of lot 124. This is, therefore, an example of a wagon to Drg. 507. The six of lot 280 will presumably have also been built to this drawing, though with their 1891 build date will presumably have had Ellis 10A axleboxes rather than the 8A axleboxes worn by No. 1525.

 

Plate 276, wagon No. 117286, shows a wagon which is listed on diagram D325 and in the December 1913 Table of Special Wagons [Fig. 126] as a 5 ton wagon. This must be a wagon of lot 508 to Drg. 1523. The general outline is the same as wagon No. 1535, but the inner longitudinal members, that form a very elongated U-shape, are of I-profile section with flanges on both sides, rather than U-section with a plain face outwards as on the earlier wagon. A timber baulk has been added to the top of each side and the self-contained buffers have larger heads. Both designs feature are non-standard numberplate, squashed to fit the height of the top frame member. These are all changes that, from the evidence of other Derby C&W drawings, would not necessarily require a new drawing number, just lots of red ink on a copy of the earlier drawing, so there may be some more fundamental design change that isn't immediately obvious - perhaps the arrangement of the floor beams is different.

 

Plate 277, wagon No. 24312, is listed on D326 and as an 8 ton wagon on the special wagon list; it is an example of a wagon built to Drg, 2364. Of these, two of lot 613 and all 6 of lot 820 of 1912 were built as additions to stock. It would appear that the numbers of lot 820 are those which appear in the special wagon list but not on the diagram, viz. 619, 626, 679, 681/6/8. (This implies that the diagram was made c. 1912, after lot 762, ordered in March 1911, had been built, but before lot 820, ordered in December 1912.) It would seem probable that the two additions to stock of lot 613 were Nos. 802 and 884, listed on the diagram - by this date there seems to have been no compunction about re-using old numbers for additions to stock, but the very lowest numbers seem to have been preferred.  A disproportionate number of wagons on the special wagon list are numbered below 4000. 

 

The remaining ten numbers on D326 are therefore those of the ten renewals built to lots 613, 670, and 762. It is suggestive that five of these are in the block 111790-5, with just 111792 missing - and appearing on D325. This suggests that the six additions to stock of lot 280 were numbered 111790-5, which would fit with their 1891 build date. That lot 762 of 1911 was for five renewals is suggestive that they were the five taking these numbers, as renewals of 20-year-old vehicles, though in the Midland Record article the numbers of the renewal wagons are assigned differently, on what grounds I have yet to discover. In any case, the conclusion is that the remaining six numbers on D325, also on the special wagon list as 5 ton wagons, 117286-91, are those of the six wagons of lot 508, again, this fits with the 1901 build date. 

 

So the only two wagons to which numbers cannot be ascribed are the pair of lot 124. It is possible that these were the two renewed by the pair of lot 670 in 1907 and that the replacement wagons took their numbers but No. 1535 was not re-used, and this lot 56 wagon had certainly been renewed before D325 was prepared. 

 

There were nine deep case wagons extant at 31 December 1894, that is, just the vehicles of lots 56, 124, and 280. The six additions of lot 508 would have brought this total to 15, and the two additions of lot 613 to 17. The ten renewals of lots 613, 670, and 762 replaced five of lot 508 and five others. The three renewals of lot 613 are explicitly mentioned in the minutes as being renewals of wagons of the same type that were worn out; these are presumably the three of lots 56 and 124. The remaining two renewals must, therefore, have replaced wagons of other types but there is no indication in the C&W minutes. It is possible that the Traffic Committee minutes contain something on this, as it may not have required the attention of the C&W Committee, if there was no additional expenditure to be authorised.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Compound2632
grammar tidy