More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[sir douglas]

I built a CR 7 ton once from a drawing so just assumed the side doors were in the middle or at least vaguely middle like the NB 8 tons

Edited December 6, 2022 by sir douglas

[MarcD]

They are a bit of a movable feast. Lost of designs all slightly different but all doing the same job. The NBR, G&SWR and the Cally all had them and as they were built in the days of drawings area a guide I would work to a photo with the drawing to aid.

Marc

[MarcD]

 I had a dig around my photo collecton and found these.

 

both 7ton "bogies" one with side doors one without.

 

Marc

 

Marc

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by MarcD

[Compound2632]

I've come to the conclusion that in Chapter 3 of Essery's Midland Wagons there is some confusion in the assignment of lots to diagrams, particularly in relation to D302. This is the outcome of much pondering over my transcription of the Traffic and C&W Committee minutes, study of scans of drawings supplied by Dave Harris of the Midland Railway Study Centre, and discussion with @Grahams.

 

Midland Wagons lists 9,750 wagons to Drg. 3843, built to lots raised between 1913 and 1920. These are assigned to diagram D302, which is reproduced as Fig, 36. This shows a 10 ton wagon with internal dimensions 15' 6¼" x 7' 4¼" x 3' 0" deep, capacity 341 cubic feet, 15' 11" over headstocks, 7' 9" outside width, 7' 1" from rail to top of side, 9' 6" wheelbase, 8" x 3½" journals, and tare 5-5-0.

 

Also listed are 3,500 wagons to Drg. 5279, built to lots raised in 1921-23, which are assigned to D663A, reproduced as Fig. 37. This shows a 10 ton wagon of marginally larger dimensions: internally, 15' 7¼" x 7' 5¼" x 3' 3" deep, capacity not stated, 16' 0" over headstocks, 7' 10" outside width, 7' 3½" from rail to top of side, 9' 6" wheelbase, 9" x 3¾" journals, and tare 5-17-3.

 

Some time ago Graham pointed out to me that Drg. 3843 and Drg. 5279 show the same overall dimensions, the dimensions reported on diagram D663A. As far as I can see, the principal differences are that Drg. 3843 shows oil axleboxes with 9" x 3¾" journals while those on Drg. 5279 are 9" x 4¼" and also alternative end elevations with timber end pillars or steel T-section stanchions. The Study Centre copy of Drg. 3843 is marked as being for lot 825, while Drg, 5279 is for lots 956 and 957, and is titled "10 & 12 Ton Merchandise Wagon". this ties in with the lot list [Midland Wagons Vol. 2, Appendix 2] which gives lot 956 as 10 ton and lot 957 as 12 ton. The lot list also states that some wagons to Drg. 3843, from lots 953 and 954, were built as 12 ton capacity. 

 

This forces me to the conclusion that D663A applies to all the 10-ton wagons built to Drgs. 3843 and 5279. In further support of this, I note that the official photo of wagon No. 93166 [Plate 100], which bears a date of 21.4.13 on its solebar and is therefore from lot 825, has tare 5-17-3, per D663A.

 

I will also venture to postulate the existence of another diagram, which I will call "D663?", covering the 12 ton wagons to both drawings, with 9" x 4¼" journals.

 

This leaves the question: to what wagons does D302 apply? I believe I have teased this out with the aid of the C&W and Traffic Committee minutes, along with further drawings from the Study Centre collection. So what follows is an outline history of Midland high-sided wagons, post-D299.

 

The last lot of D299 8-ton wagons, lot 513, was entered in the lot list in May 1901; wagons of this lot were certainly still being built well into 1902. Before this the General Manager was already pressing for larger-capacity 10-ton wagons and in February 1901 the Traffic Committee requested that twelve goods and coal wagons coming in for renewal should be renewed as wagons with internal dimensions 15' 0" x 7' 4" x 3' 0" deep, capacity 341 cubic feet, and 9' 6" wheelbase. The C&W Committee ordered that it be so in mid-March, and lot 506 for 12 10-ton goods or coal wagons to Drg. 1490 was entered in the lot list on 30 March 1901. Drg. 1490, marked as being for lot 506, shows a wagon that is to all intents and purposes a stretched version of D299, Drg. 550. The use of 2½" sheeting results in length over headstocks of 15' 11" and width of 7' 9". The 2¼" increase in depth was achieved by increasing the width of the top plank. Otherwise the dimensions of side and bottom doors are the same as for D299, with the same 4' 7" between middle bearers. Ellis 10A axleboxes are shown, along with brakes on one side only and short brake lever. It also shows three of the twelve wagons were to have raised ends. Barring the odd quarter-inch, this all corresponds to diagram D302 as reproduced in Midland Wagons. 

 

The General Manager wanted this to become the new standard goods and coal wagon, but the C&W Department pointed out that there was material prepared for a further 3,000 8 ton wagons, and that it would take three years to cut and season the timber for wagons to the new dimensions. As a stop-gap, it was proposed to build 10-ton wagons of the same length and width as the 8-ton wagons, but of greater depth. The outcome was lot 529, entered on 11 December 1901, for 1,000 10-ton goods and coal wagons with top folding doors, Drg. 1530, diagram D301. (A further 80 wagons of this type were built as loco coal wagons for the S&DJR.) The remaining material for 8-ton wagons went into the building of D357 covered goods wagons.

 

All this resulted in a general hiatus in the renewal of open wagons. Since the early 1880s, the policy had been to build a standard wagon that was to be used for both goods and coal traffic. At some point that I haven't quite pinned down - I haven't yet looked at the relevant volume of Traffic Committee minutes - a decision was made to move to 12-ton wagons specifically for coal traffic. Six prototypes were ordered as lot 595 of 14 October 1904, three to Drg. 2156 with through top plank and end doors and three to Drg. 2157 with hinged top plank. The former correspond to D352 whilst I have come to think that the latter, for which the drawing does not survive, corresponded to D303 [Midland Wagons Fig. 49]. The overall dimensions of the two diagrams are identical and the absence of mention of end doors for the wagons to Drg. 2157, when end doors are mentioned for Drg. 2156, suggests that they did have fixed ends as depicted in D303. These wagons introduced the 16' 0" length over headstocks and 7' 10" outside width that was subsequently standard. 

 

In December 1905, the Traffic Committee requested that the next 5,000 8-ton goods and coal wagons falling due for renewal be renewed as 12-ton coal wagons at an additional cost of £17 per wagon, which was duly approved by the General Purposes Committee at the start of February 1906. (From this date onwards, large numbers of worn-out 8-ton wagons were sold to J.F. Wake of Darlington in partnership with R,Y. Pickering & Co., at £17 per wagon - so this income from sales offset the additional capital expenditure.) Over the following five years 4,000 wagons were built to Drg. 2156 - lots 640, 676, 701, and 720. (From at least lot 701, independent double-side brakes with long brake levers were fitted, remaining standard for all subsequent wagons.) In September 1909 it was decided that the last 1,000 would be built as locomotive coal wagons - lot 731 of 1909, Drg. 3255, D204, in lieu of further experimentation with 20-ton loco coal wagons. This lot introduced the 4' 1¾" depth that was to remain the standard for subsequent 12-ton coal wagons to D607 and D673. The first 5,000 D607 wagons were ordered by the Traffic Committee in January 1911, again as renewals of 8-ton wagons at an additional £17 per wagon. The General Purposes Committee ordered that the additional cost was to be charged to revenue, by means of a "Rolling Stock (Increased Capacity) Suspense Account".

 

In January 1913, the renewal of 8-ton open wagons was again discussed. Traffic Committee minute 36442 is worth quoting in full:

 

"The General Manager reported that the construction of the five thousand 12-ton coal wagons ordered by Minute No. 35858 to be built on Renewals account in place of 8-ton high-sided wagons is nearing completion, and he recommended that ten thousand additional 12-ton wagons be built on Renewals account with side, end, and bottom doors in accordance with plan "C" produced, the question as to the number of 8-ton wagons to be displaced being left in abeyance for the present.

               “Also, that, as the construction of the new 12-ton trucks proceeds, seven hundred of the present stock of 12-ton wagons without end doors be labelled and set aside for loco coal in place of the one thousand 8-ton trucks at present so labelled.

               “He further recommended that, in future, the standard high sided general goods and coal wagon be a 10-ton truck of the pattern shown on plan "B" produced instead of the present standard type of 8-ton truck. The cost of building a 10-ton wagon is estimated at £8 more than that of an 8-ton truck, viz. £78 against £70.

               “Also that, concurrently with the construction of the 12-ton wagons above referred to, 10-ton wagons of the new standard type be built, to such an extent as to use up the second hand wheels on hand, in renewal of the present standard 8-ton high-sided wagons broken up."

 

Unfortunately plans "B" and "C" do not survive. They are likely to have been sketches of the diagram type, rather than full drawings.

 

The first paragraph bore fruit in the D673 wagons to Drg 5106, starting with lot 823 of 2 February 1913, though the disruption of the Great War interfered with the plan to build 10,000 to this design.

 

The second paragraph accounts for the large number of D607 wagons photographed as loco coal wagons.

 

The third paragraph re-introduces, after an hiatus of a dozen years, the plan to build 10-ton open merchandise wagons. By this time Drg. 1490 and D302  were old hat; the 16' 0" by 7' 4" overall dimensions were well-established and hence appear in Drg. 3843. The fourth paragraph gives general licence to build these wagons as renewals, using second-hand wheels-sets. There is some evidence that parts of the ironwork from broken-up D299 wagons was sometimes used.

 

In the period of recovery after the Great War, with Robert Reid replacing David Bain as Carriage & Wagon superintendent, there was clearly some experimentation, possibly driven by the need to renew as many wagons as possible using the parts that could be obtained under the prevailing conditions. This probably accounts for the 12-ton variant of the 10-ton goods wagon, and also the 200 wagons of lots 936 and 937 of 1918. In Midland Wagons, it is suggested that these were what diagram D303 referred to, but Drg. 4944 confirms that these were basically D607 but with self-contained buffers; one lot also had drawhooks with independent coil springs, and massive tie-bars through the length of the wagon, while the other lot had the usual continuous drawgear.

 

I think this version of the open wagon story is supported by the Diagram Book, which has wagons neatly sorted by type in the D3xx series up to c. 1907/8, and then added on the end (along with carriages) in roughly chronological order thereafter. In summary, we have:

 

Open wagons in the D3xx series:

• D299     Drg. 550 8-ton goods and coal, 14' 11" x 7' 5" outside, 2' 10¾" deep, 8" x 3½" journals, 62,000 built 1882-1902
• D300     Drg. 550 8-ton wagons fitted with AVB through pipe, presumed converted from D299
• D301     Drg. 1530 10-ton goods and coal with hinged top plank, 14' 11" x 7' 5" outside, 3' 7" deep, 8" x 3½" journals, 1,000 built 1902
• D302     Drg. 1490 10-ton goods and coal, 15' 11" x 7' 9" outside, 3' 0" deep, 8" x 3½" journals, 12 built 1901
• D303     Drg. 2157 12-ton goods and coal with hinged top plank, 16' 0" x 7' 10" outside, 3' 9" deep, 9" x 4¼" journals, 3 built 1904
• D304     Drg. 2820 6-ton Carr's Biscuits wagon, 10 built 1907
• D305     lowside wagons

followed by various diagrams of special open wagons.

 

Open wagons with end doors in the D3xx series:

• D351    Drg. 790 8-ton coal wagon with end doors, 14' 11" x 7' 5" outside, 2' 10¾" deep, 8" x 3½" journals, 9,000 built 1890- 1901
• D352    Drg. 2156 12-ton end door wagon, 16' 0" x 7' 10" outside, 3' 9" deep, 9" x 4 ¼" journals, 3 built 1904 and 4,000 built 1906-10

Open wagons in the D6xx series:

• D607    Drg. 3436 12-ton coal wagon, 16' 0" x 7' 10" outside, 4' 1¾" deep, 9" x 4¼" journals, 5,650 built from 1911 onwards
• D663A  Drg. 3843 10-ton goods wagon, 16' 0" x 7' 10" outside, 3' 2" deep, 9" x 3¾" journals, 7,825 built 1913-1920, and Drg. 5279, 1,000 built 1921
• D663?  Drg. 3843 12-ton goods wagon, 16' 0" x 7' 10" outside, 3' 2" deep, 9" x 4¼" journals, 1,925 built 1921-23, and Drg. 5279, 2,500 built 1921-1923
• D673    Drg. 3850 12-ton coal wagon with end doors, 16' 0" x 7' 10" outside, 4' 1¾" deep, 9" x 4¼" journals, 6,200 built 1913-1919, and Drg. 5106, 2,950 built 1920-22

The allocation of D204 to loco coal wagons to Drg. 3255, lot 731 is an oddity!

Edited December 7, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[Penlan]

Phew...

 

[corneliuslundie]

I think this deserves to be published somewhere rather more permanent than here. The Midland Railway Society has a journal or does Midland Railway Trust have a journal? Or it go to one of the commercial journals, or even the HMRS.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think this deserves to be published somewhere rather more permanent than here. The Midland Railway Society has a journal or does Midland Railway Trust have a journal? Or it go to one of the commercial journals, or even the HMRS.

 

This post is a draft for a section of my next article for the Midland Railway Society Journal, which has a working title of "The Rise and Fall of D299". This follows on from the two articles on lowside wagons already published, with a third part in press.

 

Back when I was involved in academic research, it was usual practice to announce one's findings by means of a paper or poster presentation at a conference, followed by a draft paper on a pre-print sever. This not only assured one's priority but also enabled one to gain valuable feedback from colleagues in the research community. I view posting on here in much the same light.

[Compound2632]

Because, when I look at my collection of incomplete loco kits, I live in hope rather than despair, I have ordered CamKits' latest release, a kit for the Class A or 1102 0-6-0T. 

 

Although strongly associated with the Swansea Vale line, three of the class were at Saltley at my period, where their duties included working the passenger service on the Walsall Wood branch from Aldridge to Brownhills:

 

 

These were Nos. 1129A, 1130A, and 1131. I have therefore also ordered a set of CamKits' brass numerals, which come with a better proportion of 1s than the Slaters etch!

 

Wheels, motor, gearbox will be ordered once I have the kit in hand.

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

passenger service

Although the photo is a little indistinct, any ideas what the carriages are? It looks like only one brake to me.

[John-Miles]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Because, when I look at my collection of incomplete loco kits, I live in hope rather than despair, I have ordered CamKits' latest release, a kit for the Class A or 1102 0-6-0T. 

 

Although strongly associated with the Swansea Vale line, three of the class were at Saltley at my period, where their duties included working the passenger service on the Walsall Wood branch from Aldridge to Brownhills:

 

 

These were Nos. 1129A, 1130A, and 1131. I have therefore also ordered a set of CamKits' brass numerals, which come with a better proportion of 1s than the Slaters etch!

 

Wheels, motor, gearbox will be ordered once I have the kit in hand.

I have been promised my two for this Monday but I am not holding my breath because I was told they would be ready by last July. In fairness, Richard Evans aka CamKits, has been working flat out on his model of Three Cocks which is due to be exhibited at Bristol Show next year -  a chance to run some of my stock on his train set.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Although the photo is a little indistinct, any ideas what the carriages are? It looks like only one brake to me.

 

I have looked at these closely but am now looking even more closely! (See end.) Both have six ventilator hoods, which identifies them as 40 ft carriages. The furthest ventilator hood on the second carriage is right up at the end, indicating the double doors of a luggage or brake compartment; the double doors are very clear on the first carriage. The left-hand of the double doors of both carriages has a droplight, this, together with there being six lamps on each carriage, indicates that both are brake compartments rather then just luggage.

 

So, 40 ft carriages:

• Drg. 294, third brakes with four compartments, 30 to lot 3 built 1878. These had the first style of clerestory roof.
• Drg. 294 and Drg. 386, third brakes with five compartments, 40 to lot 5 built 1878. These omitted the clerestory in favour of a slightly higher arc roof, used on all subsequent Clayton arc-roof carriages. Otherwise the were very similar to lot 3, except that whereas lot 3 had a long brake compartment including a "fake" third class compartment, lot 5 had a shorter brake compartment.

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 88-4538-0015, DY5798]

• Drg. 331, composites arranged T/F/F/F/T/Lug, 30 to lot 17, 10 to lot 50, 10 to lot 58, all built 1879-80. In 1888 50 40 ft composites were converted to composite brake, probably including some of these 50, but it is unclear whether that involved converting the third class compartment adjacent to the luggage compartment into part of the brake compartment, which was the layout of other brake-ended vehicles, and whether the left-hand of the double doors had a droplight fitted, as was also usual. In 1895, 40 composites with two third and three first class compartments had one first converted to third; whether this included those already converted to composite brake is unclear. 
• Drg. 332, composites arranged T/T/F/F/T/Lug, 50 to lot 16, built 1879-80, and 37 to lot 83, built 1882-83. The comments about conversion to composite brake also apply. There were also 20 carriages of this type built for the MSJS in 1879, 8 of which came to the Midland c. 1900 on the renewal of the joint stock. All of these had had the second third class compartment from the non-luggage end converted to a pair of lavatories.

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64331.]

• Drg. 332, composite brakes arranged T/T/F/F/T/Bke, 50 to lot 69, built 1882, externally similar to the composites but with a droplight in the left-hand double door from new. By the time these carriages were withdrawn c. 1918-22, some had the adjacent third class compartment converted to give an enlarged brake compartment, as described above.

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC item 64329.]

• Drg. 606, composite brakes arranged T/T/F/F/Bke, D528, 8 to lot 106, built 1884. These had the longer brake compartment from new; whereas the Drg. 332 carriages had the luggage compartment doors right up at the end of the vehicle, with the hinges only 9" from the end, these had the doors set 1' 9" from the end.

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC item 64347.]

 

The earlier lots had Pullman-style bogies with equalising beams but lots 69, 83, and 106 had iron-framed bogies with individual bearing spring to each axlebox. Both had the distinctive transverse leaf springs to the bolster, which can be seen in the photo, but I don't think one can otherwise distinguish which type they are.

 

 

Now, looking at the nearer carriage in the Aldridge train, it's got its luggage / brake compartment doors well inset from the end. There's also quite a lot of space either side of the lamp at that end and the other five lamps, along with the ventilator hoods, look to be equally spaced. Therefore I think this is a third brake of lot 5.

 

The further carriage has its luggage / brake doors right up at the end. Looking at the eves panels, I think the one between the third and fourth doors from the leading end is longer than any of the others, with the eves panels either side of that being shorter but not as short as that between the first two doors - i.e. compartments are T/T/F/F/T. Therefore I think this is a composite to Drg, 332 rather than Drg. 331, but whether it's from lot 69, built as a composite brake, or from lot 17, 50, or 58, converted to composite brake, I don't think one can tell.

 

So the train has two first class compartments, seating a total of 12, and seven or eight thirds, seating 70 or 80 - which seems about the right balance for the inhabitants of Brownhills. The trains on the "main line" here, the Water Orton and Walsall line, plying between New Street, Walsall, and Wolverhampton, were made up of five 6-wheelers arranged BT/T/F/T/BT giving 24 first class seats and 160 thirds - the same proportions. 

 

If arrangements c. 1902 were the same as in 1922, there would have been two sets of carriages, exchanged on Tuesday mornings by attaching them to a regular New St - Walsall train. The 1922 marshalling book does specify a third brake and composite brake - by that date possibly 43 ft / 45 ft arc-roofed carriages. By the closure of the line in 1930, the pair were a 48 ft clerestory lavatory third, D486, and a very grand lavatory brake composite 12-wheeler, an arc-roofed 54 ft carriage to D522, lot 359 of 1896:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60271; for a sharper image see

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/brownhills/.]  

 

@MR Chuffer, thank you for asking, because I had previously thought this was a pair of 40 ft composite brakes but in writing this post I've been forced to look more closely! Two composites would provided way too much first class accommodation for the district.

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

I have been promised my two for this Monday but I am not holding my breath because I was told they would be ready by last July. In fairness, Richard Evans aka CamKits, has been working flat out on his model of Three Cocks which is due to be exhibited at Bristol Show next year -  a chance to run some of my stock on his train set.

 

I had an email from Richard alerting me that the kit was ready, since I had expressed my strong interest some time ago. I've just had another email from him saying he will put the kit in the post on Monday. Reading seems to be one of the postal blackspots, with stuff ordered a couple of weeks ago and sent out by Royal Mail not yet arrived. I may be having a late Christmas...

 

I note the Bristol Show dates 28 - 30 April (which does not clash with anything yet in the diary) and location, Thornbury:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 61460.]

[MarcD]

I have just made the S&DJR 8ton road van, MR Tariff vans and the MR unfitted Banana van available in multiple scales. I'm hoping to get the S&DJR and MR large cattle vans done next week.

Marc

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, MarcD said:

I have just made the S&DJR 8ton road van, MR Tariff vans and the MR unfitted Banana van available in multiple scales. I'm hoping to get the S&DJR and MR large cattle vans done next week.

 

The banana van version is after my period but I'm seriously tempted by the tariff van version. I could even succumb to an S&DJR road van. There's plenty of evidence for these working through to L&SWR destinations, even Waterloo, but unfortunately I've not found any evidence for their working north of Bath. But I'll see how that medium cattle wagon goes first, please!

[MarcD]

It should go in the post on Monday afternoon. I just need to box it up tomorrow.

Marc

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, MarcD said:

It should go in the post on Monday afternoon. I just need to box it up tomorrow.

 

I'm opening a book on which gets here first - yours or CamKits'!

[MarcD]

Subject to royal mail you should have it before Wednesday. Can't speak for Camkits.

Marc

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, MarcD said:

Subject to royal mail you should have it before Wednesday.

 

Reading is a postal black hole at the moment so I won't count on either appearing before Christmas!

[MarcD]

Oh that's not good.

Marc

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

Oh that's not good.

Marc

 

We live in hope! (Not Hope, Derbys.)

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 60794.]

Edited December 10, 2022 by Compound2632

[MR Chuffer]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

too much first class accommodation

Thanks for the clarification. Having just acquired a kit-built Ratio Brake third and a composite in decent shape and livery pending next year's Hatton 6 wheelers and my dilatory efforts in building my own Ratio kits, I have 2 carriages and wondered how prevalent it was for the MR to run with one brake. I'm guessing, better with 2 brakes...

Edited December 11, 2022 by MR Chuffer
deleterious should be dilatory

[Annie]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

We live in hope! (Not Hope, Derbys.)

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 60794.]

Ooooo that's a very nice timber built station building.

[Rowsley17D]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

We live in hope! (Not Hope, Derbys.)

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 60794.]

 

In my childhood Derbyshire village we used to say, live in Hope, die in Castleton!

[corneliuslundie]

My favourite one is Hope Exchange!

Sorry, off topic.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

Regular readers may have noticed a lack of actual modelling here!

 

The offspring have sprung back - both still some way from properly springing off - and reclaimed their desks in warm parts of the house, leaving nowhere convenient to work without being chilled through in this cold snap. This isn't helped by leaving all the internal doors open downstairs, apparently necessary to allow free circulation of the cat. Not that she's circulating at all, having spent all day curled up on her favourite cushion up against a radiator.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Compound2632