More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Grahams]

On 06/11/2022 at 19:28, Compound2632 said:

 

Gives you an insight into the relative sizes of an 8-ton D299 and a 12-ton D607!

Coming to a 5 inch gauge railway soon! Unfortunately, not in time for our meeting at Warley. 

[Penlan]

With reference to ongoing discussions re, loading timber...........
A photo on Facebook 'The Clearing House' Group, by Mike Macleur, with the following text 
'A good example of timber loading (or "deals" ?) in opens. Taken in 1961 by Mike Macleur'.
.

And  'Stanier 2-6-2T No. 40116 is shunting at Caernarvon station in June 1961, pic taken from the B&B we were staying at, my pic (Mike Macleur)'.
Please respect origin etc.,

[Compound2632]

Here's a link to a paper in the Proceedings of the I. Mech. E. from 1884, "On the Mineral Wagons of South Wales", given by Alfred Slater, of the Gloucester Wagon Company:

 

https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/414/mode/2up?view=theater

 

The figures and plates mentioned are at the end of the volume.

 

This was originally posted by @magmouse here:

But I'm reposting here so I don't have such a struggle to find it again! (I've also downloaded it.) @Mikkel drew attention to T.G. Clayton's remarks on mineral wagon lifetime in the discussion following the paper.

 

From the centenary history of the Gloucester company, reprinted in Keith Montague's Gloucester book, I learn that Alfred Slater was the son of the General Manager, Isaac Slater, and the following year was to succeed him in that position.

[Mikkel]

 

Have we had this one before?

 

An interesting modelling subject. I wonder if Model U would give me a discount? 🙂

 

 

[41516]

(Bass Holdings Ltd Collection, held by the National Brewery Centre)

Edited November 21, 2022 by 41516

[corneliuslundie]

Presumably the second one is a first class wagon.

Note the luxury of steps on the end.

Jonathan

[41516]

17 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Note the luxury of steps on the end.

 

And the lining visible under the elbows of the guests!

 

Photo is presumably pre 1897 when Bass bought what was to become their Directors' Saloon from the Manchester Ship Canal to allow for more comfortable travel around the system.

[Compound2632]

I have seen @Mikkel's one before but not, I think, this colourisation. There is a framed print in the MRSC collection, item 10823:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail]

 

and a high-res one on Picture the Past, ref DCAV003317:

 

 

[Embedded link]

 

where it is captioned 'Miners leaving work, Woodside Colliery, Heanor, 1900s?'

 

The D299 is No. 19834. Can anyone identify the carriages? The doors have had a hard time - the lower panels having had a good kicking from miners' boots, I suppose. (I'd like to see that modelled with some Hornby or Hattons 4-wheelers.) The nearer carriage has some lettering in its waist panels that could be read as G.W.R. THIRD CLASS but that's almost certainly not what it actually says. According to mindat.org, Woodville Colliery was only worked between 1875 and 1900, being owned in the 1890s by G.B. Blakesley (the photo has to be no earlier than c.1890 as the D299 has Elliss 10A axleboxes). But according to HM Inspector of Mines' report of 1896, the colliery only employed seven underground and two surface workers but a possible explanation for this is that there might have been a strike on at the time of the survey. There is no entry in the Durham Mining Museum website.

 

As @corneliuslundie says, some sort of lining, if not actual red carpet, has been rolled at and nailed down for the Bass dignitaries in @41516's photo - note the door, as well as the top of the sides. I wonder how they did that? Was the iron capping strip removed so the lining could be nailed to the top of the boards? Brackets have been added to support the ladder, which will be used for the passengers to get in and out at locations without a loading bank. The tare, 5.2.2, is on the high side for an as-built D299, so I think the wagon has been repainted and re-tared with all the modifications in place, including benches. There's what looks lik a chalk X under the house-hook.

 

Both wagon have the extra end-strap which I now think was standard on D299 wagons (also the fixed end of the end door D351, and the hopper wagons D343) up to the early 1890s. But as @Crimson Rambler demonstrated, when the end boards were renewed, these end straps were often left off, so that the end strap becomes a rarity in photos taken after c. 1905.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

The 4 compartment coach looks like an Ashbury design that was bought buy the Furness and Cambrian, amongst others, circ 1885. One thing to note the coaches are not fitting with continuous brakes. 

Marc 

[sir douglas]

just made a cut down version of those proceedings so its just the portable railways and Mineral articles with their plates, 70 pages instead of 700

mech engineers 1884 portable rlys & south wales minerals.pdf

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

just made a cut down version of those proceedings so its just the portable railways and Mineral articles with their plates, 70 pages instead of 700

 

A public service, thank-you. I hadn't noticed Paul Decauville's paper, which has to be considered a vlasic in the field of, err, field railways.

 

Those who comment on Alfred Slater's paper are an interesting bunch.

 

Tom Hurry Riches of the Taff Vale Railway needs no introduction, likewise the Midland duo of Johnson and Clayton.

 

Richard Price Williams was a noted civil engineer; his obituraries make no mention of the connection with the Taff Vale that he mentions, though one supposes he had some Welsh connection!

 

Thomas Ashbury was, I suspect, connected with the Ashbury Railway Carriage & Iron Co., possibly the nephew of the founder, John Ashbury.

 

The best match among I. Mech. E. members I can find for Robert Gordon is a Stockport iron-founder, possibly by the date of this meeting retired.

 

George Douglas Hughes was a Nottingham manufacturer of machine tools who had had been a locomotive engineer in the late 40s/early 50s.

 

Ralph Hart Tweddell had started out in shipbuilding on Tyneside and made his name with a portable hydraulic riveter, which had been adopted by Webb at Crewe and also by the Gloucester Wagon Co. and the Great Western - so this explains both his knowledge of North Eastern Railway practice and comments in favour of iron wagon underframes. The reference to McDonnell, whose short reign at Gateshead had ended a couple of years earlier, is interesting - his contribution to wagon design is something I'd not come across before. I wonder what sort of wagons he was responsible for at Inchicore?

 

Arthur Paget had trained with Sharp, Stewart in Manchester but had moved into the manufacture of knitting machines, with works in Loughborough. He was am member of the I. Mech. E. Council at the time of this meeting.

 

Jeremiah Head was a pupil of Robert Stephenson & Co., who had, by way of Kitsons and John Fowler, ended up as an iron plate manufacturer in Middlesborough - which accounts for his being a proponent of iron wagons. He seems to have had something of a social conscience - he was a Quaker - with a profit-sharing scheme for his employees and an interest in education. This would account, I suppose, on his remarks on the building of iron wagons providing employment at home, whereas wooden wagons provided employment abroad. His social conscience did not extend to foreign workmen!

 

I think this meeting was held in Nottingham but note that Slater's paper had been held over from a meeting in Cardiff.

 

 

 

[Mikkel]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I have seen @Mikkel's one before but not, I think, this colourisation. There is a framed print in the MRSC collection, item 10823:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail]

 

and a high-res one on Picture the Past, ref DCAV003317:

 

 

[Embedded link]

 

where it is captioned 'Miners leaving work, Woodside Colliery, Heanor, 1900s?'

 

The D299 is No. 19834. Can anyone identify the carriages? The doors have had a hard time - the lower panels having had a good kicking from miners' boots, I suppose. (I'd like to see that modelled with some Hornby or Hattons 4-wheelers.) The nearer carriage has some lettering in its waist panels that could be read as G.W.R. THIRD CLASS but that's almost certainly not what it actually says. According to mindat.org, Woodville Colliery was only worked between 1875 and 1900, being owned in the 1890s by G.B. Blakesley (the photo has to be no earlier than c.1890 as the D299 has Elliss 10A axleboxes). But according to HM Inspector of Mines' report of 1896, the colliery only employed seven underground and two surface workers but a possible explanation for this is that there might have been a strike on at the time of the survey. There is no entry in the Durham Mining Museum website.

 

As @corneliuslundie says, some sort of lining, if not actual red carpet, has been rolled at and nailed down for the Bass dignitaries in @41516's photo - note the door, as well as the top of the sides. I wonder how they did that? Was the iron capping strip removed so the lining could be nailed to the top of the boards? Brackets have been added to support the ladder, which will be used for the passengers to get in and out at locations without a loading bank. The tare, 5.2.2, is on the high side for an as-built D299, so I think the wagon has been repainted and re-tared with all the modifications in place, including benches. There's what looks lik a chalk X under the house-hook.

 

Both wagon have the extra end-strap which I now think was standard on D299 wagons (also the fixed end of the end door D351, and the hopper wagons D343) up to the early 1890s. But as @Crimson Rambler demonstrated, when the end boards were renewed, these end straps were often left off, so that the end strap becomes a rarity in photos taken after c. 1905.

 

Stephen, if the caption says Woodside, then shouldn't we be looking at that rather than Woodville? That would also match the Inspector's report better, which says Woodside in Shipley,  Derbyshire, with 591 below ground and 184 above. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Mikkel

[41516]

Yes, Shipley is south of Heanor while Woodville is west of Swadlincote and about 45 minutes from Heanor...

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Stephen, if the caption says Woodside, then shouldn't we be looking at that rather than Woodville? That would also match the Inspector's report better, which says has Woodside in Shipley,  Derbyshire, with 591 below ground and 184 above. 

 

 

Doh. https://maps.nls.uk/view/114589859. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Compound2632

[41516]

53 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

But according to HM Inspector of Mines' report of 1896, the colliery only employed seven underground and two surface workers but a possible explanation for this is that there might have been a strike on at the time of the survey.

 

Some of the mines around Woodville* may have been on the smaller side as the majority of the working in the area (like Swadlincote) was predominately for clay and some may have just been mining coal for earthenware companies, or just very small seams between the clay for domestic use.  Later maps show the area from the Mindat.org link as a clay mine.

Jack (Hunslet 684) currently at Statfold, was a Woodville loco, at the Mount Pleasant works, to the south-west.

 

*It was named Wooden Box for the Toll collector booth on the Burton -Ashby Turnpike and only renamed Woodville in 1868.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by 41516
easts and wests....

[sir douglas]

and the other loco Gwen is in private ownership in america

[corneliuslundie]

Re Richard Price Williams, two obituaries attached thanks to one of my WRRC contacts. No mention of the TVR at all. although possibly via the steel link or his membership of the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies. 

Jonathan

Richard Price Williams.doc

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Re Richard Price Williams, two obituaries attached thanks to one of my WRRC contacts. No mention of the TVR at all. although possibly via the steel link or his membership of the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies. 

Jonathan

Richard Price Williams.doc 33 kB · 2 downloads

 

These are the two obituaries included in his entry in Grace's Guide, from which I had got my information!

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Richard_Price_Williams

[corneliuslundie]

Agreed. My contact is still on the case but couldn't find any more references in the railway sphere. But he is still looking.

I had never come across him when looking at South Wales material though the TVR is not my prime interest.

I have just looked through the Colin Chapman papers for the TVR at this period but have not found the name mentioned.

Jonathan

[Chas Levin]

On 21/11/2022 at 08:25, 41516 said:

(Bass Holdings Ltd Collection, held by the National Brewery Centre)

Hat styles may come and go, but facial hair is timeless...

[jamie92208]

Can I ask if anyone has a copy of Chris Damrook's book about British Carrisgecand Wagon builders. i would be very interested in seeing the entry about JB Beadman of Keighley. £30 plus postage seems a bit steep for whatbis probably a short entry.

 

Jamie

[sir douglas]

our library has it but you would have to wait until friday for me to have a look in it, if no one else here has it

Edited November 22, 2022 by sir douglas

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, sir douglas said:

our library has it but you would have to wait until friday for me to have a look in it, if no one else here has it

 

 

 

That's fine Sam. It's some resesrch that I'm doing for a talk I have to give next year.  No hurry.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Can I ask if anyone has a copy of Chris Damrook's book about British Carrisgecand Wagon builders. i would be very interested in seeing the entry about JB Beadman of Keighley. £30 plus postage seems a bit steep for whatbis probably a short entry.

It is quite a short entry. I'll scan and PM to you tomorrow.

[sir douglas]

a club friend recently joined the industrial railway society but is more interested in more recent stuff so he gave me his records he got when he joined, in the March Issue issue is a photo a loco at Eglinton Ironworks, North Ayrshire. behind the loco is a line up of North British & Caledonian 7 & 8 ton wagons, 2 of the Caleys on the right have white diagonol crosses painted across the middle but my main query is about the wagon on the far left of which could be a Caley based on the axlebox, but the thing is that it looks like the side door is in the corner by the end door

 

snippet of photo