More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[WFPettigrew]

54 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

If you have a photo to work from the route I used is worth a try.  Correct Perspective in photoshop then edit it to produce a sharp image.  I used that fir most of the transfers that POWsides did for me.

I do and this is something I want to try, although I would be trying to do the skewing in GIMP or another editor and then possibly using that or Inkscape to sharpen it up. 

 

I know POWsides do a "pay us and we will design and print for you" service - do they also do a "we'll print your design" (for presumably less money) service?  (One would hope less money as from what you say it sounds like they then take ownership of the artwork and can sell it on to others as part of their range..?)

 

 

[WFPettigrew]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Bill's asked one of his interesting and thought-provoking questions in a possibly off corner, so I'm taking the liberty of re-posting here:

 

 

No Midland drawing I've seen shows such blocks nor on a quick leaf through Midland Wagons Vol. 1 can I find any in photos; indeed there are a good number of 1950s photos of 1910s/20s-built wagons where they are clearly absent. I've not looked further afield.

 

From Chris Croft's seminal articles on wagon building in the MRJ (in particular issue 13 on brakes) - the addition of wooden packing between the push rods is a post-1923 modification, presumably as part of that year's new RCH standards. 

 

So these can be filed under that dark and mysterious time after the pre-Grouping era!

[jamie92208]

18 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

I do and this is something I want to try, although I would be trying to do the skewing in GIMP or another editor and then possibly using that or Inkscape to sharpen it up. 

 

I know POWsides do a "pay us and we will design and print for you" service - do they also do a "we'll print your design" (for presumably less money) service?  (One would hope less money as from what you say it sounds like they then take ownership of the artwork and can sell it on to others as part of their range..?)

 

 

It was the latter that I used. I sent them a sample artwork sized to whatever my wagon body was going to becand they did the rest.  From memory the fee was about £30  plus the costbof the first set of transfers.

 

Jamie

[Penlan]

3 hours ago, airnimal said:

I have never heard of this list ?  Can you give further information please. 

It's first mentioned on page  135 of LNWR Wagons Vol 3. as 'The Walsh-Scott Goods Brake Van Allocation List' (see Bibliography) which just says 'Skipton Library'.

The hand written list is very tightly Copyrighted by Skipton Library, I seemed to have to sign my life away and pay for a copy.
It's undated.   I have transcribed the listing and indeed offered a copy to the (current) Archivist of the LNWR Society, they didn't reply.
I've taken the listing to be a list of allocation names that appeared on the sides of Brake Vans*, and the list indicates if the Brake Vans at each place are 10ton, 6 wheel and/or 20 ton. nothing more than that.   There's 222 (two hundred & twenty two) allocations listed, a few don't show a brake van at a name, but that may be because it was outside of the photocopied area.
Therefore, as much as I would like to share the list, I've signed that I will not make it public etc., with Stockport Library.

* e.g. 'For Use in South Wales Only' -
    J.P.Richards has similar Brake Van lettering at NRM York.

 

 

[MR Chuffer]

5 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

the South Yorkshire Coalfield

And for @Compound2632, @jamie92208, @WFPettigrew and others interested in coal traffic, these are the missing files, courtesy of @eastglosmog which provide some insights into railway coal traffic, as it was likely that loaded trains travelling east to west could quite conceivably travel the reverse direction loaded, notwithstanding PO wagons. It was all down to the end use of the quality of coal.

 

I recently purchased on excellent book, The Rise and Fall of King Coal, amply illustrated and with much to interest the railway enthusiast.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by MR Chuffer
spelling

[corneliuslundie]

Skipton library seems to be taking lessons from the NRM on copyright!

Copyright remains for 70 years after the death of the author/photographer etc or for 70 years after the generation of the item if it was done by a company or by an employee as part of his/her job.

So anything pre-group item such as a document or photograph originating within a railway company went out of copyright by 1992. Anything by a private individual will still be copyright if the originator lived until 1952.

Jonathan

non-crown-copyright-flowchart.pdf

[airnimal]

Living in Stockport I made a visit to Stockport Reference Library and obtain a copy of the Walsh-Scott brake van allocation list. I suppose I was expecting a bit much because other people have obviously been here before me and if there was corresponding brake van numbers to know locations, then surely the LNWR society would already have that knowledge.  

Still the girls there were very helpful to me and a small booklet of all the railway subjects attributed to Walsh-Scott was made available for me to study. 

One of the girls mentioned that someone else had asked for the same list recently so she is going to search through other archives to see if she came unearth any other information.  They was other things listed that caught my eye particularly some details of local trains in my area at the turn of the century. 

 

[billbedford]

On 07/11/2022 at 13:09, WFPettigrew said:

 

From Chris Croft's seminal articles on wagon building in the MRJ (in particular issue 13 on brakes) - the addition of wooden packing between the push rods is a post-1923 modification, presumably as part of that year's new RCH standards. 

 

If I have understood the genesis of the RCH correctly, they were less concerned with innovation and more with recommending "best practice". So if the wooden packing showed up in the 1923 RCH standards, someone somewhere were likely to have tried it and found it beneficial, or at least solved a particular problem. 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

If I have understood the genesis of the RCH correctly, they were less concerned with innovation and more with recommending "best practice". So if the wooden packing showed up in the 1923 RCH standards, someone somewhere were likely to have tried it and found it beneficial, or at least solved a particular problem. 

 

I don't know how it worked by 1923 but the 1887 specification was drawn up by the Wagon Superintendents' Committee, which in effect meant T.G. Clayton of the Midland - though whether the actual design work was done in the Derby C&W Drawing Office or spread around, I don't know. I have the impression that the RCH didn't have its own drawing office staff but I stand open to correction.

[Penlan]

11 hours ago, airnimal said:

Still the girls there were very helpful to me and a small booklet of all the railway subjects attributed to Walsh-Scott was made available for me to study. 

One of the girls mentioned that someone else had asked for the same list recently so she is going to search through other archives to see if she came unearth any other information.  They was other things listed that caught my eye particularly some details of local trains in my area at the turn of the century. 

 

I expect that was me that asked for the list.  I too found Stockport Library very helpful.
I wasn't aware there was a small booklet, however, I have what I was looking for, so all's well.
Stockport's a bit far from West Cornwall to visit and browse, especially as these days I haven't got a car.

[jamie92208]

Another day another photo find in the Ingleton Coalfield book.

Taken looking south across the A65.  The MR line was behind the photographer.  The siding was later extended across the road. By the way I started reading another birthday present about minor railways of Northern Northumberland and there is at least one more photo of MR wagons during WW1 I will scan it in due course.

 

Jamie

 

 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Another day another photo find in the Ingleton Coalfield book.

 

Nice pair of D299s there. They seem to be loaded with sand or soil or some similar uniformly fine material. Looking at the 1907 OS 25" map, which of course pre-dates the colliery, there is a peculiar siding with loop off the Midland branch, curving round to meet the road at right angles, a few yards north of Moorgarth Cottage. This siding is not on the 1882 survey. The Distance Diagram shows this as Barker's Siding. This is the Ninth Edition, 1913, of Sheet 4, in the Peter Kay reprint; it also shows a more complex set of sidings serving New Ingleton Colliery just a few chains furth north, on the same, west, side of the line, accessed from Ingleton Colliery Junction, just south of the Midland station. 

 

The OS map shows a couple of pits or depressions either side of Barker's siding so my guess is that Mr Barker was engaged in sand or gravel extraction.

 

EDIT: Wrong, bricks: 

https://www.brocross.com/Bricks/Penmorfa/Pages/england4.htm

 

Quote

Brickworks operated c1895 - 1905 and listed as James Barker, Ingleton Fireclay Works in Kelly 1897 and Robinson 1904. 'Barker also built brick kilns in Great Milner Field above Dolands and produced bricks with BARKER / INGLETON inscribed in the frog'.  Source: Bentley, Bond & Gill, Ingleton Coalfield, 2005, Northern Mine Research Society. 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

They could be loaded with lime stone dust. Limestone dust was used in collieries as a fire suppression system. Coal dust is highly explosive bit this risk can be mitigated by spreading limestone dust on the floors or drives and cross cuts.

 

Marc

[jamie92208]

Thanks very much for that Stephen.  I've just reread some of the Ingleton book and Barker features in it, firstly involved in earier mines, then the brickworks.  The photo must have been taken about 1913. The New Ingleton  Coliery Co was formed in 1909 and shaft sinking began in 1912.  The main colliery screens were on the north sidevofvthecA65 near the railway and the new connection was put in to serve them.  The spoil heaps were also north of the road.  The shafts were south ofvthecroad and it appears that by early 1914 the railway had been extended across the road and terminated by the shafts. Presumably  this allowed inboubd stores such as pit props and machinery to be taken straight to the pit head.  Traces of the line were found by water company contractors in 2003.  Growing up at Giggleswick in the 60's. I was aware that there had been a colliery but didn't know much about it. The main relic was the New Village opposite the pit that was built to house miners. It  is still there today. 

 

Jamie

Edited November 10, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

They could be loaded with lime stone dust. Limestone dust was used in collieries as a fire suppression system. 

 

But one would expect to see such loads at the colliery sidings, not on the private siding of a different customer?

 

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I've just reread some of the Ingleton book and Barker features in it, firstly involved in earier mines, then the brickworks. 

 

I note that the 1907 OS 25" map shows "Ingleton Collieries (disused)" and "Old Brickworks" a little to the west, a couple of fields south of the hose called The Winning, reached by a green lane across the fields from a point on the main road just opposite the end of Barker's siding. The 1892/3 survey shows "Ingleton Collieries" and "Brickyard" but with access via a north-south green lane. I wonder if there had been a plan to extend Barker's siding up to the colliery? This lane is marked as public footpaths on the modern 1:25,000 map but there is no sign of the lane down to Barker's siding. That shows "Coal pit (dis)" and "Shaft (dis)" a bit to the north, near The Winnings - possibly an accumulated error. Of the New Ingleton Colliery there seems to be only one trace (apart from the housing) "Tip (dis)" on the eastern side of the course of the railway line. Aerial photography (Bing maps) shows various lumps and bumps, with a smattering of trees, in the fields where the old colliery and brickworks stood; these fields are down to pasture whereas most of the surrounding ones have been cut for grass - hay or these days more likely silage. 

 

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

The main relic was the New Village opposite the pit that was built to house miners. It  is still there today. 

 

The aerial photography shows a patch of woodland just south of the new Village, perhaps indicative of colliery land that was unfit for reclamation as farmland? There's hardly a sign of the course of the railway and none of any sidings, though the route of the line up to the quarries stands out well.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[MarcD]

On 06/11/2022 at 14:27, jamie92208 said:

As promised here's the photo of the MR wagons at Glasson dock.  It's shown as copyright to Lancaster Museum so I've dumbed it down and would be grateful if it wasn't circulated.   I think that it is taken post WW1 due to the presence of a New Ingleton Colliery wagon.   I think that there might even be a D299 in there.

 

Jamie

 

Just had time to look a this photo in detail. I think  I can id running left to right.

 

MR D352 (1904-09) (light grey paint and number under the M indicate late build

MR D301 (in MR livery 1901- no published photo in MR livery)

MR D299 

MR D352 (1904+)

FR 3plk hard to tell but brake gear does not match type used by MR. 

LNWR D1

LNWR brake 

2x New Ingleton Col 7plks

MR D362

What is also interesting is the lack of LNWR stock on a LNWR dock.

 

Marc

Edited November 10, 2022 by MarcD

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

FR 3plk hard to tell

 

You might be right Marc although I reckon it could be a 2 plank?  Jamie does your original copy (pre dumbing down) show it in higher res?

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

LSWR brake 

 

A typo, clearly. D16, see above. 

 

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

MR D352 (1904-09) (light grey paint and number under the M indicate late build

 

I had first identified this as D607 but on closer inspection of the higher resolution scan I had from Jamie, I think you're right that the wagon has an end door - diagonal strap on the left. However, I'm sure it id D673 not D352 - look at the height of the side above the door catches, indicating two rather than one plank above the door. Number on the side is not an indication of build date, simply an indication that the date of the photo is no earlier than 1917. 

 

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

MR D301 (in MR livery 1901- no published photo in MR livery)

 

The more I look at this wagon, the more I become convinced it is a D343 hopper bottom wagon - it has the door fasteners at the side rather than the top, in the style of D299 rather than the later 12-ton wagons. The same is true of D301 of course, but again I see two planks rather than one above the door. The overall height of D343 was about 2" less than D607/D673, whereas D301 was nearly 8" lower; the two wagons here are of pretty nearly equal height.

 

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

MR D352 (1904+)

 

(The wagon behind the ship's derrick, with its door down.)

Again, I'm sure this id D673, for the same reasons as given above.

 

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

FR 3plk hard to tell but brake gear does not match type used by MR. 

 

10 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

You might be right Marc although I reckon it could be a 2 plank?  Jamie does your original copy (pre dumbing down) show it in higher res?

 

Yes, I'd foolishly leapt to the conclusion it was another Midland wagon but looking again it does seem to have a centre door. The higher res version isn't that great - it's a scan of a photo in a book - but will go with it being two plank rather than three.

 

2 hours ago, MarcD said:

What is also interesting is the lack of LNWR stock on a LNWR dock.

 

Not necessarily, given the post-Great War date. If all the coal wagons have come from New Ingleton colliery, it would make some sense for them to be a mix of the colliery's own wagons and Midland mineral wagons, especially given the LNWR's lack of higher-capacity mineral wagons.

 

Thank you for making me look again and more carefully at this interesting photo! 

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

You might be right Marc although I reckon it could be a 2 plank?  Jamie does your original copy (pre dumbing down) show it in higher res?

I'll have a look in the book.  As to the absence of LNWR stock. I would go with Stephen.  It may well have been a block train from Ingleton to load a single vessel.  There was very little storage space at the dock.  One siding of the 3 on the dock side was dedicated to the two cranes. The 3rd siding was put in during WW1.  I suspect that trains were tripped down from Castle when needed and empties cleared out asap.

 

Jamie

Edited November 10, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

I am working my way through S.W. Johnson's Presidential Address it the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, as serialised over several numbers of The Engineer in May-June 1898. Turgid stuff, as with most 19th century technical writing.

 

Now in other more excitable corners of this forum we often get folk berating the folly of the British railways of old in not adopting continuously-braked 40-ton gondolas and box cars, hauled at express passenger speeds by monstrous 2-8-4 locomotives. (The sort of thing, in fact, that I used to see thundering through the middle roads of Oxford station, while waiting for the Birmingham train, back in my student days in the mid 80s to early 90s, though the locomotives were 56s and the wagons still 4-wheeled - the Didcot MGR trains.) There are usually some sober respondents who draw attention to such matters as colliery infrastructure, the amount of coal a local coal merchant could clear out of a wagon in a day, the length of loops and lay-bys, and my favourite, turntable sizes. Johnson has a different take on the question:

 

"In the case of goods traffic: we have conditions strongly militating against long, heavy wagons. In the first place, goods and mineral trains have to be broken up and re-marshalled at numerous points, and the wagons have frequently to be moved by horses, and also by manual labour. During shunting operations, too, the motion of the wagons has to be stopped by the elasticity of spring buffers; and the greater the weight to be dealt with, the slower the shunting operations must be. Such conditions have led to the standard wagon, which has four wheels, carrying from eight to twelve tons."

Edited November 11, 2022 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

Many goods yards were laid out for horse shunting with 1 wagon headshunts and no run round loop.

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

.......folk berating the folly of the British railways of old in not adopting continuously-braked 40-ton gondolas and box cars, hauled at express passenger speeds by monstrous 2-8-4 locomotives.

 

There are, sadly, a large number of such people who regard the men who ran the railways without taking regard of the wishes and opinions of enthusiasts in the far distant future as idiots who didn't know what was required or how best to conduct their business. Unfortunately, the persistent prognostications of these self-styled experts often gain the force of holy writ among the mass of their peers.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

A wagon:

 

 

[Embedded link to HMRS photo ref. ABN211.]

 

This is what I picked up the POWSides transfers for, for just £1, at a local exhibition a couple of weeks ago.

 

This photo is included in John Arkell's Private Owner Wagons of the South East (Lightmoor Press, 2016) with a brief entry on Robert Henry Beaumont, who was in the coal trade by 1899 until at least 1913. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that he had any other wagons than this one, built by Hurst, Nelson in 1900. Arkell says it is 15' 6" long, which seems about right - position of spring shoe relative to the headstock strap-bolts is the indicator, as usual. He also says it has six planks, which just goes to show that even Homer nods. 

 

POWSides specify Slaters kit 4040, Charles Roberts 7 Plank Private Owner Wagon (side door). This, I believe, would be the right length, but it has 7 planks, so about 4' 0" deep. The five planks of this Hurst, Nelson wagon are quite wide, for 1900, so it too could be 4' 0" deep. (It seems that the SER / SE&CR PO wagon registers have not survived; dimensions would have been recorded.) Something like 10½" planks top and bottom and 9" in between. 

 

The Cambrian kit C52 for a Hurst, Nelson wagon, an example of which featured here recently, is for a smaller wagon all round - 15' 0" long, five planks but only about 3' 0" deep. 

 

I have thought, very, very briefly, about whether one could modify the Slaters kit, filling in the planking grooves and scribing new ones, between the ironwork... Apart from anything else, the top of the door would be in the wrong place.

 

Looks like there's only one way forward. And I thought this looked like a bargain, a quick win... 

 

 

[MarcD]

It looks like a wagon I'm drawing out to make into a Carlisle Southend Coop.if I get it finished tomorrow I will post the CAD.

Marc

[wagonman]

On 13/11/2022 at 17:12, Compound2632 said:

 

Looks like there's only one way forward. And I thought this looked like a bargain, a quick win... 

 

 

 

A good pretext to get the plastikard out...?