More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[jamie92208]

As promised here's the photo of the MR wagons at Glasson dock.  It's shown as copyright to Lancaster Museum so I've dumbed it down and would be grateful if it wasn't circulated.   I think that it is taken post WW1 due to the presence of a New Ingleton Colliery wagon.   I think that there might even be a D299 in there.

 

Jamie

 

[jamie92208]

I've found my book about the Ingleton Coalfield.  New Ingleton Colliery didn't start producing coal till 1914 so this is probably during or just after WW1. It would probably have come from Ingleton as a trainload, either via clapham and the Lancaster Green Ayre and Lancaster  Cadtke or couod have gone up to Tebay then down to Lancaster Castle.  It may well appear as a trip working on my layout as I have 3 or 4 New Ingleton wagons.

 

Jamie

Edited November 6, 2022 by jamie92208

[MarcD]

What is the book on Inglton called and where did you get it?

Marc

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

As promised here's the photo of the MR wagons at Glasson dock. 

 

Jamie has PM'd me a higher resolution scan, from which it is possible to identify at least the Midland wagons. On the quayside are several 12 ton coal wagons - a pair of D607 on the left and an end-door D673 behind the steamer's forward derrick. The wagon on the extreme right could be either D607 or D673. In the background, there's an 8 ton highside - either D299 or possibly an end-door D352 to the left of the D673 and another peeking out to the right of the New Ingleton wagon - and I think a Caledonian open to its right. to the right of the D673, a lowside wagon, D305, coupled to a one-plank wagon - probably a LNWR D103 by the length it. Sticking out from behind the left-hand crane is, I think, a LNWR D16 10-ton brake van - Glasson Dock was a LNWR location.

 

What seems to be going on is that coal is being loaded from the wagons into the bucket suspended from the crane, which is presumably then being tipped into the ship's bunker or hold - looks like a laborious and slow process!

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Jamie has PM'd me a higher resolution scan, from which it is possible to identify at least the Midland wagons. On the quayside are several 12 ton coal wagons - a pair of D607 on the left and an end-door D673 behind the steamer's forward derrick. The wagon on the extreme right could be either D607 or D673. In the background, there's an 8 ton highside - either D299 or possibly an end-door D352 to the left of the D673 and another peeking out to the right of the New Ingleton wagon - and I think a Caledonian open to its right. to the right of the D673, a lowside wagon, D305, coupled to a one-plank wagon - probably a LNWR D103 by the length it. Sticking out from behind the left-hand crane is, I think, a LNWR D16 10-ton brake van - Glasson Dock was a LNWR location.

 

What seems to be going on is that coal is being loaded from the wagons into the bucket suspended from the crane, which is presumably then being tipped into the ship's bunker or hold - looks like a laborious and slow process!

Yes, the text in the bok ecplains that coal would be loaded via the buckets for onward shipping. The buckets were made by a Lancashire firm.  It would definitely be an LNWR brKe van.  I'll get the details of the Ingleton book.  There is a photo taken at the colliery that shows a couple of MR wagons.  I'll try and scan that.  Looking at the photo the wagon behind the left hand steam crane looks to be a well weathered New Ingleton one.  The New Inglton lettering us available from Powsides.  I commissioned it having edited the artwork from the photo on the frontispiece in Bill Hudson's Vol 5.  It was a bit laborious editing usinig Perspective correct in Photoshop then bit map editing in an old Word Perfect program but it turned out OK

 

Jamie

Edited November 6, 2022 by jamie92208

[Buhar]

They've obviously put a 3mm scale wagon in the scene just to the left of the mast. Doesn't really work as forced perspective.

 

Alan 

[Penlan]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Sticking out from behind the left-hand crane is, I think, a LNWR D16 10-ton brake van - Glasson Dock was a LNWR location.

Is there a Brake Van Allocation visible on the side rail?
Ingleton is one of those on the Stockport Library Allocation list.
Glasson Dock isn't.

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Buhar said:

They've obviously put a 3mm scale wagon in the scene just to the left of the mast. Doesn't really work as forced perspective.

 

Gives you an insight into the relative sizes of an 8-ton D299 and a 12-ton D607!

 

29 minutes ago, Penlan said:

Is there a Brake Van Allocation visible on the side rail?
Ingleton is one of those on the Stockport Library Allocation list.
Glasson Dock isn't.

 

No, I'm afraid there's less than half the van visible.

[jamie92208]

41 minutes ago, Penlan said:

Is there a Brake Van Allocation visible on the side rail?
Ingleton is one of those on the Stockport Library Allocation list.
Glasson Dock isn't.

It's more than likely to be an LNWR van from Lancaster. The colliery was served by the Midland so it's likely that the wagons were brought via Clapham to Green Ayre then tripped up to Castle. Then taken down to Glassin by the LNWR from the sidings south of Lancaster  Castle. I'm not sure who handled the trip workings but probably the Mifland who would then leave them at Castle. There were two reversals nevessary to get from Ingleton to Glasson. As far as I know there was never any allocation to Glasson. Most of the sidings were owned by the Port Commissioners  but worked by the LNWR and also the steam cranes. The wagons in the distance would have been on the lines alongside the river wharf.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

15 hours ago, MarcD said:

What is the book on Inglton called and where did you get it?

Marc

Hi Marc

 

I remembered the book when I went over to let the hens out this morning.  It's " Ingleton Collieries" by John Bentley.  ISBN 978-0-901-450-58-6 published by and available from the Northern Mine Research Society.  Growing up in Giggleswick  I was aware that there had been a colliery at Ingleton and that it had closed in the 30's.  The book is well worth it's cover price. several years ago, I once met a former miner and had a chance conversation with him, half way up Whernside.  He told me about the 10' seam and that when they were made redundant they had a job creation type job carrying the materials up the hills to build the Ordnance Survey trig points.

 

Jamie

Edited November 7, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

59 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

they had a job creation type job carrying the materials up the hills to build the Ordnannce Survey trig points.

 

After puffing up some fell I never fail to have admiration for those who must have lugged up the bags of concrete and so forth for the trig points!

[WFPettigrew]

You learn a new thing every day on this thread - thanks Jamie and Stephen!  I must have driven past the New Ingleton pits a hundred times and never knew before now that they were there!

 

Going googling for more info, Wikipedia is somewhat unclear when the New Ingleton Collieries actually began, certainly in or before 1913 it would seem?  And aside from some mentions of coal going to the mills of the Colne arae, and local sales - plus clearly export via Glasson Dock - do we know what the markets were for this coal?

 

(Asks a FR modeller always looking for a new PO option!  Though I am sure Stephen will sagely, and correctly, point out that as clearly MR wagons were also used to transport it away that I could just have a D299 loaded with coal that could as easily have come from Ingleton as it could have come from the South Yorkshire Coalfield, and which we know was a very popular choice for providing house coal to the good people of Furness.)

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[MR Chuffer]

5 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

New Ingleton pits

According to the website about Barlick (aka Barnoldswick in Lancashire now but Yorkshire pre-1974), a Mr Billycock, a go-getting entrepreneur developing the cotton weaving industry in Barlick ".. By the time he finished Wellhouse he controlled the Corn Mill, eventually buying it. Outside the town he had an engineering works and iron foundry in Burnley and even purchased a coal field at Ingleton with a brickworks."

 

And "In 1870 he was the chairman and main investor in building the branch railway line from Barlick to the Colne Skipton line at Earby. All this in just over thirty years." Elon Musk of his time?

 

As for dates.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

the South Yorkshire Coalfield, and which we know was a very popular choice for providing house coal to the good people of Furness.

 

Now that's an interesting statement in the context of the late 1890s Skipton mineral inwards register that I am slowly transcribing and analysing. Skipton's coal - probably mostly domestic - was coming from the South Yorkshire Coalfield, chiefly collieries around Normanton and towards Barnsley, with some from Pontefract and the various Allerton collieries - NER and L&Y-served pits as well as Midland. I had supposed that one could reasonably infer that places further west on the Midland lines to Lancaster and Carnforth (and hence Furness) would also be getting coal from the same collieries but would have expected more competition from Lancashire collieries the further west one got. I've been a bit surprised that at Skipton there appears to be no Lancashire coal via Colne.

 

The Barrow Haematite Steel Co.'s Barrow Colliery at Worsborough is well-enough known, though I gather the firm had other collieries in Lancashire and Cumberland.

 

 

[Embedded link to Northern Mine Research Society website.]

 

Some rather tasty wagons there for modellers of the Midland west of Leeds pre-Great War!

Edited November 7, 2022 by Compound2632

[Andy Hayter]

19 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

You learn a new thing every day on this thread - thanks Jamie and Stephen!  I must have driven past the New Ingleton pits a hundred times and never knew before now that they were there!

 

Going googling for more info, Wikipedia is somewhat unclear when the New Ingleton Collieries actually began, certainly in or before 1913 it would seem?  And aside from some mentions of coal going to the mills of the Colne arae, and local sales - plus clearly export via Glasson Dock - do we know what the markets were for this coal?

 

 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

This source 

https://www.aditnow.co.uk/Mines/New-Ingleton-Colliery-Coal-Colliery_19151/

says the first coal was wound 26th September 1914.  This was 2 years after they started to sink the first shaft.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

This was 2 years after they started to sink the first shaft.

 

That seems to be a fairly typical - possibly even quite quick - timescale on which coal owners started to see a return on their investment, even in a coal field such as South Yorkshire where, by the late 19th century, the geology was reasonably well understood and the depth at which the principal seams would be encountered predictable. 

[airnimal]

15 hours ago, Penlan said:

Is there a Brake Van Allocation visible on the side rail?
Ingleton is one of those on the Stockport Library Allocation list.
Glasson Dock isn't.

I have never heard of this list ?  Can you give further information please. 

[WFPettigrew]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Now that's an interesting statement

 

Stephen, it is backed up by a number of bits of evidence as well as being stated by various local historians in published books that the preference was for S Yorkshire housecoal.

 

Just off the top of my head are:

 

The photo at Lindal ore sidings that we have referred to previously on here, which has numerous Old Silkstone and Monkton wagons. 

 

The photo of Grange with an Ackton Hall colliery wagon unloading.

 

F Wilkinsons coal merchant/factor of Ulverston and wider area (they were also the coal merchant at Sandside on the FR's Arnside-Hincaster Jn line for example) were agents for Manvers Main

 

Lower Holker Coop (OK they only had one wagon, but it was a Hurst Nelson curved ended beauty!) was in a contract with Glasshoughton Colliery at Castleford.

 

And interestingly I cannot think of any photographic evidence of Lancashire coalfield wagons in Furness.  Clearly that's not to say they weren't there, but they weren't there in numbers. 

 

I wonder if the Lancashire coal was perhaps too smoky or otherwise less suited to house fire use?

 

Neil 

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

You learn a new thing every day on this thread - thanks Jamie and Stephen!  I must have driven past the New Ingleton pits a hundred times and never knew before now that they were there!

 

Going googling for more info, Wikipedia is somewhat unclear when the New Ingleton Collieries actually began, certainly in or before 1913 it would seem?  And aside from some mentions of coal going to the mills of the Colne arae, and local sales - plus clearly export via Glasson Dock - do we know what the markets were for this coal?

 

(Asks a FR modeller always looking for a new PO option!  Though I am sure Stephen will sagely, and correctly, point out that as clearly MR wagons were also used to transport it away that I could just have a D299 loaded with coal that could as easily have come from Ingleton as it could have come from the South Yorkshire Coalfield, and which we know was a very popular choice for providing house coal to the good people of Furness.)

 

All the best

 

Neil 

I remember  seeing some time ago that Lancashire was often a net importer of coal as the coalfield was never as big as the Yorkshire coalfield. Thus flows over Woodhead direct to the Manchester and Liverpool area and over the Midland system to the Furness area  and via Colne to north Lancs.  I suspect that coal was the real lifeblood of  the Midland route to the northwest, thus the building of the Furness and Midland joint line from Wennington.  As to Ingleton coal I think that much of it could have gone west via both connections from Ingletin.  There were quite extensive exchange sidings at Clapham which would have been able to sort traffic going west from there, both coal and quarried stone of various types. I know that this is just conjecture on my part but it would fit with what sources we have.  At least @WFPettigrew you are able to get the New Ingleton transfers from Powsides. Sadly I don't get a commission.  The Glasson book does say that quite a bit of Wigan coal came to Lancaster.

 

Jamie

[Andy Hayter]

Lancashire pits and their coal tended to be very gassy.  {Though I cannot find any references, I imagine this would have depended on which seams were being worked with some more or less gassy than others.]  As such they would have been ideal for gas works but I surmise that in a household environment may have burned hot and quickly and perhaps not seen to be as good value as other slower burning coals (Yorkshire). 

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

I wonder if the Lancashire coal

I once posted about this and someone sent me a very interesting distribution map of UK coalfields and their qualities. Unfortunately since the great server wipe down these are now lost and I have no local copy but have requested them again from the originator and I'll repost.

 

And yes, Lancashire coal was good for gas generation (and therefore coke byproducts), but terrible for brewing beer (see attachment)  Death_in_a_beerglass.pdf

 

In the meantime, whilst I wait for the files, there is this:

 

1. Peat is the first stage in the process, still used after drying as a fuel, but has the ability to hold significant volumes of liquid so is a highly effective absorbent for spillages, while its water retaining qualities make it an ideal soil conditioner;
2. Lignite (brown coal) is the lowest grade but suitable as fuel for electric power generation. As an aside Jet is a compact form of lignite and often used in ornaments and jewellery;
3. Sub-bituminous coal is used as fuel for electric power generation, and is a source of hydrocarbons for the production of chemical synthetics;
4. Bituminous coal is dense and used mainly as fuel for electric power generation, for generating heat and power in manufacturing, and the production of coke and gas;
5. Steam coal was so-called because it was ideal for firing boilers for steam locomotives and ships. It was also the general grade used in domestic open fires;
6. Anthracite is a hard shiny black coal used primarily for residential and commercial space heating;
7. Graphite, whilst technically a coal, is commonly used in pencils and is also a low-friction lubricant.

[WFPettigrew]

19 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

At least @WFPettigrew you are able to get the New Ingleton transfers from Powsides. Sadly I don't get a commission.  The Glasson book does say that quite a bit of Wigan coal came to Lancaster.

 

Thanks for that detail Jamie, and @Andy Hayter and @MR Chuffer - the article I had read had misled me into thinking the previous mines had kept going when in fact it seems there was a 30 year ish gap. 

 

My modelling era is planned to be confined to late spring (ie Whitsuntide) 1913 or 1914, in which case New Ingleton is just a few months too late. But it's a possible candidate for slight timeline bending!

 

I am still debating how best to get the lettering done for the aforementioned Lower Holker wagon, and whether or not I do the artwork, getting that produced by POWsides is an option I am mulling over. 

 

 

[jamie92208]

11 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Thanks for that detail Jamie, and @Andy Hayter and @MR Chuffer - the article I had read had misled me into thinking the previous mines had kept going when in fact it seems there was a 30 year ish gap. 

 

My modelling era is planned to be confined to late spring (ie Whitsuntide) 1913 or 1914, in which case New Ingleton is just a few months too late. But it's a possible candidate for slight timeline bending!

 

I am still debating how best to get the lettering done for the aforementioned Lower Holker wagon, and whether or not I do the artwork, getting that produced by POWsides is an option I am mulling over. 

 

 

If you have a photo to work from the route I used is worth a try.  Correct Perspective in photoshop then edit it to produce a sharp image.  I used that fir most of the transfers that POWsides did for me.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

Bill's asked one of his interesting and thought-provoking questions in a possibly off corner, so I'm taking the liberty of re-posting here:

 

 

No Midland drawing I've seen shows such blocks nor on a quick leaf through Midland Wagons Vol. 1 can I find any in photos; indeed there are a good number of 1950s photos of 1910s/20s-built wagons where they are clearly absent. I've not looked further afield.

[Compound2632]

Left-facing levers on Midland wagons with Morton brakes: another example hiding in plain sight spotted while looking at push-rods - D385 Gunpowder Vans, Drg. 2109, Lot 583 of 1904 - exactly the time-frame in question. The left-facing lever can clearly be seen in Midland Wagons Plate 222; it's a little harder to make out in Plate 223, which is from the other side:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64127.]

 

The absence of a right-facing lever on the far side is, I think, clear, while the left-facing lever can just be seen through the RH axleguard.

 

The drawing, MRSC item 88-D0532, shows single-side brake only.