More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

16 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

what colour to paint it.

 

According to the chapter on road vehicles by Philip Millard in LNWR Liveries, road vehicles for passengers and parcels were the responsibility of Wolverton works and were painted in a style based on that of the passenger carriages, whereas goods cartage vehicles, coming under Earlestown, were black until 1911 when the passenger colours were adopted. I can't find any good photos online; Millard refers one to Ted Talbot's LNWR Miscellany, which I don't have.

[phil_sutters]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

According to the chapter on road vehicles by Philip Millard in LNWR Liveries, road vehicles for passengers and parcels were the responsibility of Wolverton works and were painted in a style based on that of the passenger carriages, whereas goods cartage vehicles, coming under Earlestown, were black until 1911 when the passenger colours were adopted. I can't find any good photos online; Millard refers one to Ted Talbot's LNWR Miscellany, which I don't have.

I don't suppose this has anything to offer for parcels vans but when has irrelevance ever stopped me posting a photo!

Edited October 31, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

I don't suppose this has anything to offer for parcels vans but when has irrelevance ever stopped me posting a photo!

 

From the few photos I have seen, I would say that the lining-out there is a bit OTT - but of course the restorers may have photos showing this style for this vehicle. The parcels vans had panelling rather like that of a passenger carriage and lined out accordingly.

[jamie92208]

As my layout is set in 1923 ish I'll go for the passenger coach livery with the upper part of the body side in spilt milk or whatever it's called. If.  There is a something in the instructions that shows the upper part of the body side in a lighter colour.  It may be a while before it gets finished.

 

Jamie  

[Penlan]

23 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

..... what colour to paint it.

After 1911, Chocolate & white - varnished, chassis drop black - unvarnished.

Ref: LNWR Liveries, page 146. 😎

[sir douglas]

On 28/10/2022 at 23:09, MarcD said:

Is there any real evidence that the Midland ever built any 3 box coal wagons? I have the works drawings for them and there is a note in the "Ince wagon" book that the Midland operated them. However essery doesn't mention this and I'm yet to find a photo.

Marc

 

is it like this?

[jamie92208]

1 minute ago, sir douglas said:

 

is it like this?

I wonder how often the boxes ended up in the correct order again after the photo was taken.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, sir douglas said:

is it like this?

 

Only insofar as it's a timber-framed wagon carrying three boxes.

 

Here's a thumbnail of the HMRS copy of Drg 1955:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I wonder how often the boxes ended up in the correct order again after the photo was taken.

 

I'm sure you understand perfectly well that that's just one painted up for the Ince catalogue!

[sir douglas]

the box wagons at Monks Ferry in Birkenhead were always fully lettered, this photo from 1958

 

my model

[billbedford]

56 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I wonder how often the boxes ended up in the correct order again after the photo was taken.

 

If there was only one crane the empty boxes would have been placed back into the space they started from. 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

If there was only one crane the empty boxes would have been placed back into the space they started from. 

 

Though that begs the question of how they were filled at the colliery - presumably they were not there taken off the wagon.

 

The coal box wagon appears to go back to the late 1830s / early 1840s, but possibly for general use as an early form of containerisation that subsequently fell by the wayside. From the railway company's perspective they don't look like a good idea: compared to an ordinary coal wagon, there's greater tare weight for a smaller load.

[jamie92208]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Though that begs the question of how they were filled at the colliery - presumably they were not there taken off the wagon.

 

The coal box wagon appears to go back to the late 1830s / early 1840s, but possibly for general use as an early form of containerisation that subsequently fell by the wayside. From the railway company's perspective they don't look like a good idea: compared to an ordinary coal wagon, there's greater tare weight for a smaller load.

Most collieries loaded by gravity from the screens which straddled the sidings so loading would not be a problem. As to containers, they actually fulfill a very important  role by reducing breakage of the coal with reduced handling.  I believe that the coal that was shipped to Northern Ireland into the 1990's went on open topped containers .

 

Jamie

Edited November 1, 2022 by jamie92208

[jamie92208]

Trying to put some logic to this, bunker coal was as dust free as possible to keep the amount of dust in the bunkers as liw as possible.  This reduced the risk of fire and explosion in the bunkers on board ship as coal dust ischighly explosive.  Thus containers provide  a way of reducing  breakage.  Thus ports that provided containerised bunker coal would  also reduce the handling of coal on quaysides and keeping coal dust away from other goods.  

 

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject but did do quite a bit of research for ship modelling some years ago.

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

Certainly in south Wales the friability of coal was an issue and methods were worked out to reduce the distance it dropped into the hold, but as far as I am aware containers were never used in later years. Page 127 of "Staith to Conveyor" by Terry Powell (Chilton Ironworks, 2000) has a useful summary of the use of containers. In summary, they were used initially on the canals and then for a while on some railways but usually then dropped (not literally).

There is a famous illustration of a Vale of Neath train which went into the dock at Swansea because the bridge was open which shows the use of containers.

http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Images-of-Glamorganshire-Railways/image/101/Swansea_Docks_Vale_of_Neath_Rly_accident_1865

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

There is a famous illustration of a Vale of Neath train which went into the dock at Swansea because the bridge was open which shows the use of containers.

http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Images-of-Glamorganshire-Railways/image/101/Swansea_Docks_Vale_of_Neath_Rly_accident_1865

 

1865 - some interesting if rather twisted early iron underframes on display there.

[Penlan]

In the book 'Black Gold: The History of How Coal Made Britain', there's plenty of descriptions of the bunkering of South Wales coal for the Royal Navy prior to WW1, to be stored all around the world, and when ships needed loading at ports around the Empire it was 'all hands on deck' (aka shovels).  Mainly because whilst the ships were being loaded, 4 - 5 days, they were sitting targets for any enemy action.

The stockpiles of bunkered coal around the world for the UK's Navy was something else.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Penlan

[Penlan]

.... and this is my 1 HP parcel delivery van...😎
Looks like chocolate lower panels and a black canvas top....
 

[phil_sutters]

16 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Certainly in south Wales the friability of coal was an issue and methods were worked out to reduce the distance it dropped into the hold, but as far as I am aware containers were never used in later years.

I know that I have seen much clearer photos of coal loading at Bute docks, but this is the only one I have with a coal hoist in view. It is from a collection of Victorian prints one of my grandfathers collected. It is interesting how many of the ships are sail powered.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

It is interesting how many of the ships are sail powered.

 

The source of power for a sailing ship is free and coal was not a commodity that needed to be transported as quickly as possible!

[Schooner]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The source of power for a sailing ship is free

Well...ish.

 

The photo shows the dominance of barques (like the big girl with a lean on) and topsail schooners (like the nearest vessel, left hand side) over ships and brigs - proof that their motive power wasn't free!

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Schooner
Pic added - lads aloft on the barque 'Garthsnaid', c.1920

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Well...ish.

 

Point taken - a preference for ships that could sail closer to the wind, and keep sail on in a gale too. And I suppose, given those ill-paid, hard worked, men aloft, it depends how you define "free"!

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

There is a famous illustration of a Vale of Neath train which went into the dock at Swansea because the bridge was open which shows the use of containers.

http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Images-of-Glamorganshire-Railways/image/101/Swansea_Docks_Vale_of_Neath_Rly_accident_1865

Jonathan

 

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

1865 - some interesting if rather twisted early iron underframes on display there.

 

Looking again at that photo it dawns on me that these were broad gauge wagons. They are rather short wheelbase - about 7 ft; I think the wheels may be nearer 3' 6" diameter than 3' 0". This would make the wagons no more than 10 ft long over headstocks and almost square in plan. The framing is unusual, with, it seems, five longitudinals, the most substantial of which are in line with the padded buffers. The coal boxes themselves look square and must have been mounted on the wagon two on each side. Is any more known about this type of wagon?

[corneliuslundie]

There is more but I am trying to remember where. I am pretty sure I have seen a drawing of the coal boxes and the wagons. If/when I remember and/or come across the information I'll post.

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

By a fortunate coincidence one of my birthday presents was a CRA publication called Lancaster's line to the sea by Dave Richardson.   It's a history of the Glasson Dock branch and has a lot of information about the shipping and handling of various commodities.  Deals are mentioned and defined as sawn boards of pine or fir and there are some photos of stacks of them on the quayside.  Apparently pitch pine as often towed as rafts from Barrow and Fleetwood.   There is a lot more of interest and a lot of good photos of loaded wagons carrying cork and other materials for the manufacture of linoleum together with export and bunker coal.   I haven't got all the way through it yet but if there is anything of interest to this thread I will post.   So far it is an excellently researched and written book using mainly primary sources.

 

My daughter is to be congratulated for knowing that such a good book would go down well with her dad.  I of course have no idea how this came about.  

 

Jamie