More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Some other companies also had the left-hand lever arrangement in the early days of either side brakes, before the Morton cams came into use. I have built models of a couple. Was it to avoid royalty payments?

 

As far as I've been able to establish, Morton's patents covered the clutch arrangement and the reversing cam. I have a feeling this has been discussed upthread; I've summarised what I think I know in my article. Morton was an employee of the L&Y C&W Department; the L&Y certainly used the left-facing lever arrangement but also other more complex linkages that may have been intended to avoid royalty payments to one of their own employees.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, MarcD said:

the MR/LMS Tariff, SDJR Road van and the MR/LMS unfitted Banana van

 

One and the same vehicle - almost. But the interest is in the detail differences! 

[41516]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I think this arrangement of the Morton brake was applied to the 2,600 D305 lowside wagons of lots 631 and 636, built 1906-7, but no other Midland wagons.

 

I can think of two examples - both vans - off the top of my head and I shall PM my evidence...

 

Edit -  I've spent the day down the road at the National Brewery Centre, nee Bass Museum - It's closing at the end of this month (the landlords - Coors -  want the museum for... offices...) so if you've ever wanted to visit, you have a ticking clock.  What will happen to everything, no-one really knows at this point, but it's another fine tale of stupidity and unintended consequences from the Council's "plans".

 

Anyway, one of the photos on a wall display I'd not seen anywhere else and never noticed before.  D299, MR-ex PO, 4 plank and ?? in the foreground (curb rail is too thin I think for NSR or LNWR).

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by 41516
spelling

[MarcD]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One and the same vehicle - almost. But the interest is in the detail differences! 

The MR tariff van, MR banana and the SDJR box have the same chassis, and sides and different ends. The SDJR van ends are plain, the banana has vents and the tariff has windows.

Marc

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, MarcD said:

The MR tariff van, MR banana and the SDJR box have the same chassis, and sides and different ends. The SDJR van ends are plain, the banana has vents and the tariff has windows.

 

Exactly so, except that by the time the banana vans were built, oil axleboxes would have been fitted. The Midland had gone for sliding door vans since the 1880; this group of 16' 6"-long cupboard-door vans are an exception. The surviving drawings in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection make an interesting study. (I presume you have consulted these?)

 

MRSC 88-D1801, Drg. 1088, Covered Goods Wagon S&DJR, dated 1 Jan 1896, and according to the Drawing Register the work of Fred Crocker. As noted on the drawing, these were built to lot 369. This lot for 50 vehicles was entered in the lot list on 23 Dec 1895. In addition to this drawing, there is a detailed Specification in the collection - MRSC 88-1974-58/3, dated 23 Nov 1898, being a tender document for 30 further Road Vans, these being built by S.J. Claye the following year. An oddity is that the framing was originally drawn as an inverted V; this has been rubbed out and the usual right-way-up V framing substituted. The drawing is also marked up in pencil for a 14' 11"-long version with an off-centre 4' 6" doorway and D357-style framing at the left-hand side, with the note "Pencil figures for Mapperley Colliery Coy, Febry 8/1900". It seems rather extraordinary that the Midland should be building a van (or several) for Mapperley Colliery - perhaps the drawing was being supplied to an outside builder. C&W Committee minute of 3099 of 6 Dec 1895 records that the Joint Committee was to be charged £80 per vehicle for the fifty built at Derby. 

 

MRSC 88-D0129, Drg. 1239, Tariff Van, entered in the C&W Drawing Register on 9 Feb 1898 (which date appears in very small writing on the bottom RH corner of the drawing) and attributed to W.S. Denham. However, this is clearly a version of Drg. 1088, marked up with the detail differences for the Tariff Van. The title "Covered Goods Wagon S&DJR" has been erased and over-written with "Tariff Van" and the erased inverted V-framing can still be seen. These vans were built as lot 433 for 250 vehicles, entered on 8 Feb 1898. The drawing carries the note "50 of Lot 433 fitted with AVB Thro Pipe Screw Couplings & Lamp Irons". These vans were built as additions to stock and hence their approval cycle is in the minutes; C&W Committee minute 3337 of 16 Dec 1897 records that the 50 piped vehicles would cost £87 15s each and the remainder £83 12s each; financial approval was recorded by minute 3356 of 4 Feb 1898.

 

There are a couple of modifications marked up in red ink: for a carriage door lock &c on No. 116096, dated 13 March 1902; and for end louvred ventilators on Nos. 116156 and 116307, 18 July 1910. Finally, drawn in pencil, is a board fixed over the framing at the LH end inscribed: "Bulk Grain Traffic / Avonmouth Dock to Workman Bros Siding / Draycott Flour Mills / Coaly Junction / When Empty Return to Avonmouth Docks."

 

MRSC 88-D0247, Drg. 2333, Covered Goods Wagon for Banana Traffic, dated 15 May 1905, drawn by J. Dobson. I confess I haven't seen this but there is a G.K. Fox drawing based on it reproduced as fig. 89 in Midland Wagons. This drawing applies to the 200 vans built to lot 608 of 26 April 1905 and the first 75 of 100 built to lot 649 of 17 August 1906, after which there was a change to a sliding door. But Drg. 1642A, MRSC 88-D0887, is a curiosity. This is a marked up copy of Drg. 1642, which was the drawing for the 10 ton version of the standard 16' 6" covered goods wagon, D363. The latter is dated 3 Sept 1902 in the C&W Drawing Register and is for marked for lot 543 - a complicated lot entered in the list on 16 August 1902; in addition to 1,500 10-ton vans it included 500 8-ton vans, D362, and 450 louvered fruit vans, D364. Drg. 1642A is dated 16 June 1904 and is marked up in red with cupboard doors and all the minor adjustments to the framing dimensions to make the framing the same as that of the Tariff and S&DJR Road Vans; it also shows a single louvred ventilator at each end, between the end pillars - an arrangement not seen elsewhere, though the much-louvred D364 vans ad one of their ventilators in that position. There is a note "1 Wagon of Lot 543 to be made with End Louvres and Hinged Double Doors as Shewn in Red". So was this an experiment, towards the Banana Vans?

 

 The unfitted Banana Vans of lot 608 do not warrant mention in the C&W minutes and must therefore have been built as renewals of older vehicles. The 300 of lots 648 and 649, 17 Aug 1906, were additions to stock; these were all to be fitted with passenger undergear, automatic vacuum brake complete, and ventilators; 200 were also to have steam heating pipes. [C&W minutes 4592, 16 Aug 1906]. 

 

I'm afraid much of this will not be very intelligible without sight of the drawings but as @MarcD had mentioned the subject, it seemed like an opportunity to get my thoughts in order.

 

From a modelling point of view, banana vans are out of my period but I rather fancy a tariff van and even an S&DJR road van - though I've not yet found evidence for these working north of Bath; workings all over the South Western including up to Waterloo are well-attested. I'd been mulling over chopping up Slater's kits or scratchbuilding new sides as @Mikkel did a good while ago, so it will be interesting to see what the Pre Grouping Railways print looks like. 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

Anyway, one of the photos on a wall display I'd not seen anywhere else and never noticed before.  D299, MR-ex PO, 4 plank and ?? in the foreground (curb rail is too thin I think for NSR or LNWR).

 

 

That's very bad news about the National Brewery Centre - they were very helpful when I asked about cask sizes. And who needs more office space in this day and age?

 

Working from top to bottom, I think the wagon on the right is a LNW D2 - both D1 and D2 had curb rails only 3" tall and chamfered along the bottom, according to the drawings in LNWR Wagons; it seems to have the characteristic cut-away headstock end, and I think I can see a diamond!

 

I think the D299 has 8A axleboxes, so it's 1880s build; it has the extra end straps, which were discontinuted sometime between 1890 and 1894, as far as I can tell. The 4-plank wagon is a type whose origins I have not yet entirely pinned down: from Midland Wagons plates 14 and 15 250 of the type can be pinned down to 1877, the number of the one in plate 15, 6693, implies that it was built as a renewal (in the old Etches Park works or at Bromsgrove); unfortunately the monthly returns in the C&W minutes of wagons broken up and renewed don't distinguish by type at this date. There were 500 high sided wagons ordered as additions to stock in February 1875, 250 each from the North of England Wagon Co., West Hartlepool, and the North of England Wagon Co., Preston. The Drawing Register lists Drg. 89, "High Sided Wagon", dated 17 November 1874, which may well apply to all these, but this does not survive in the Study Centre collection.

[41516]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

And who needs more office space in this day and age?

 

They are downsizing, having sold their 1970s offices to the council (completing the council's long wished for monopoly set by the river as per their Growth Plans for years and years ) - who neglected to ask, "so, where are your 500 staff going then?" during the process.

 

Turns out Coors 'best opportunity' is to turf out the museum, lock stock and barrel, destroying one of the few remaining legacies that Bass has left and about the only thing that would draw anyone into Burton for tourism.   Well done all round. 

 

 

[MarcD]

The 4 plank is very interesting finished in light grey points to it being a new build. It has all the hallmarks of a Gloucester carriage and wagon.

Marc

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, 41516 said:

I can think of two examples - both vans - off the top of my head and I shall PM my evidence...

 

And thank you for those: a D357 14' 11" van where only the left-facing lever can be seen, and a D362 or D363 16' 6" van where the vee-hanger can be seen as well - both sold out of service and in retirement at Burton. The vee-hanger of the 16' 6" van is mounted behind the solebar, indicating that this is the early Morton brake arrangement as on the low side wagons. 

 

It's interesting that this variant has gone unobserved previously. C&W Committee minute 4394 of 16 Feb 1905 approved the general adoption of the Morton brake, except for wagons with bottom doors, that were henceforth to be equipped with independent either side brakes. I'd thought about this in relation to lowside wagons but not covered goods wagons!

 

Large numbers of covered goods wagons were being built around this time. From David Bain's accession in 1902, the C&W Committee minutes record six-monthly totals for wagons broken up, built as renewals, and as additions to stock. From 1 Jan 1905 to 31 Dec 1908 - roughly the period in question - 2,555 covered goods vans were built as renewals and 332 as additions to stock. (The latter mostly made up of the 300 banana vans mentioned in a previous post.) There was a lull in production, with none in the last 6 months to 31 Dec 1908, which conveniently helps identify these vehicles. The 2,555 must include the whole of the 425 16' 6" vans of lots 614, 643, 658, and 695, along with the 200 banana vans of lot 608, and also the 471 14' 11" vans of lot 471. But over 1,400 must be from earlier lots, probably mostly the large lot 562 for 14' 11" vans. That would imply that a rather large proportion of those vans could have had the left hand lever Morton brake - which doesn't seem to be supported by photos. It may just mean that I haven't looked hard enough!  

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, MarcD said:

The 4 plank is very interesting finished in light grey points to it being a new build. It has all the hallmarks of a Gloucester carriage and wagon.

 

I apologise that I have to be fairly brusque here but I believe you are wrong on all counts. I wouldn't consider that a particularly light grey - if anything the D299 is lighter - and wagons did get repainted from time to time. It has no Gloucester features that I can make out. Other, better, photos of wagons of this type show that the bodywork has much in common with that of D299, while the underframe &c is characteristic of wagons built in the early Clayton period, before the adoption of cast iron brake blocks and short brake lever, in August 1881 (Drgs. 522, 523, and 525). I modelled one by cutting down a Slater's D299:

 

 

[Western Star]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

but no other Midland wagons.

Sorry to stop you there...  An early issue of Railway Archive has a photo, on the front cover, of a Met Rly goods service and that train includes a MR covered wagon with a LH handbrake lever.

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Sorry to stop you there...  An early issue of Railway Archive has a photo, on the front cover, of a Met Rly goods service and that train includes a MR covered wagon with a LH handbrake lever.

 

Thanks - see above re. photos from @41516.

 

Found it (online image, not my hardcopy):

 

 

Another D357. Second wagon looks like a D299, from here.

 

Now that the idea's out there, I expect examples will start flooding in. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Ha! A J.P. Richards model:

 

 

[Embedded link to Science Museum website.]

 

He's given it 10A grease axleboxes rather than oil axleboxes - despite the decision in 1902 to adopt oil axleboxes, a good few D357 wagons from the 1903/5 lots have grease axleboxes, which I suspect is a case of using up existing material.

[phil_sutters]

I seem to remember that wagon capacity for different cargoes has figured in this thread in the past. While perusing this fascinating light railway catalogue - https://issuu.com/tombell17/docs/hudson_lightrailwaymaterials-gs   - right at the end on page 112 there is a table of weights per cubic foot for range of different materials. On page 113 there are useful tables for the conversion of inches and fractions of inches into metric measurements and vice-versa.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

 https://issuu.com/tombell17/docs/hudson_lightrailwaymaterials-gs

 

That is fascinating! On a quick flick through I was taken with the set-track, which includes a curved crossing for double junctions - Peco take note!

 

Wheels look a bit coarse scale, though.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

This post includes a photo of some Herbert Clarke, London, dumb buffer wagons. Unfortunately there's some locomotive in the foreground, as usual:

 

 

This page has the interesting information that Herbert Clarke was brother to Seymour Clarke, General Manager of the Great Northern from 1850 until shortly before his death in 1876 - following a sparkling early career with Brunel. (The personnel links between the infant Great Northern and the Great Western would make an interesting study.) Herbert Clarke, it seems, at one time had an exclusive arrangement for the sale of coal transported by the Great Northern. 

 

I think this is the same Clarke whose wagons appear in the Mutascope film of Jeanie Deans, made in 1898:

 

 

so by this time the firm was not dealing exclusively with the Great Northern.

 

There's more on Clarke in Turton's 5th, but the only photo is of a much later wagon. 

 

There's a Lea & Co. wagon earlier in the train:

 

 

The Lea & Co wagons in Turton's 13th are Hurst, Nelson build, of 1901, and rather different design - in fact it looks to me as if a passable model of this one could be made from Cambrian's Hurst, Nelson kit! (C52).

Edited October 14, 2022 by Compound2632
clarity

[jamie92208]

9 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

I seem to remember that wagon capacity for different cargoes has figured in this thread in the past. While perusing this fascinating light railway catalogue - https://issuu.com/tombell17/docs/hudson_lightrailwaymaterials-gs   - right at the end on page 112 there is a table of weights per cubic foot for range of different materials. On page 113 there are useful tables for the conversion of inches and fractions of inches into metric measurements and vice-versa.

That is fascinating.  I lived in Gildersome, where Hudsons were based, for 38 years. I knew people who had worked there and actually got a tour of the factory in the early 80's before it shut.  It's last major contract was for dump cars on a mine railway about 11000 ft up in Colorado. They had an ingenious system that allowed the bottom to open whilst the train was pulled through the unloader. Sadly it shut shortly afterwards and the site is now an anonymous industrial  estate.  However I did see several bits of Hudson equipment and track in Luxor, where it was used for moving spoil on excavation sites.

 

Jamie

Edited October 14, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

I have to apologise for the lack of photos of modelling recently. This is down to two things:

1. lack of modelling recently;
2. a general tidy-up consequent on No. 1 Son coming back from home and No. 2 Son going to university, following which I can't find the download cable for the camera.

In mitigation of point 2, I have just ordered a replacement cable, which will guarantee that the missing cable turns up. 

 

On point 1, that's not entirely true. I have been rolling some tumblehomes and slowly progressing painting and decorating various wagons currently in the shops.

 

But mooching around, I came across my stash of Parkside kits and have just assembled a couple of RCH 1923 specification 12-ton, 7-plank side door wagons - PC73. The Parkside 1923 specification wagon kits are, in my view, among the very finest injection-molded wagon kits around; certainly from the point of view of accuracy of fit and ease of assembly. It took me less than an hour's modelling time to put these together, although elapsed time was rather more, with waiting for joints to cure. 

 

My only niggle with these kits is the black plastic molding for buffer heads, coupling hooks, and door bangers. The latter cross the registration line of the mold and are invariably out of register, so there's some scraping and scrawking to try to get a flat surface both on the visible side and where it sticks to the solebar. I've also used some 13" diameter turned metal buffer heads from 51L Wizard; the shanks of the molded ones are a bit too big and risk splitting the buffer guides on the end/headstock molding.

 

I intend to finish these in 1950s condition for use on Erlegh Quay, which will be an interesting painting challenge. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[Adam]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

My only niggle with these kits is the black plastic molding for buffer heads, coupling hooks, and door bangers. The latter cross the registration line of the mold and are invariably out of register, so there's some scraping and scrawking to try to get a flat surface both on the visible side and where it sticks to the solebar. I've also used some 13" diameter turned metal buffer heads from 51L Wizard; the shanks of the molded ones are a bit too big and risk splitting the buffer guides on the end/headstock molding.

 

 

I must admit, I always bin that sprue and replace the components completely (including replacing the buffers). The door hinge is pretty simple to do from wire, the door springs, from strip and I invariably use AMBIS coupling hooks. There are other things I do, but that's because I want to. Here's a cameo for my layout. The weathering was good fun, I admit...

 

 

Adam

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Adam said:

I must admit, I always bin that sprue and replace the components completely (including replacing the buffers). The door hinge is pretty simple to do from wire, the door springs, from strip and I invariably use AMBIS coupling hooks. There are other things I do, but that's because I want to. Here's a cameo for my layout. The weathering was good fun, I admit...

 

Now that's a proper P4 job well above my humble efforts. I also note etched V-hanger, brake lever and guide with stay to the axleguard - Ambis as well? Is there anything of Parkside left in the brake gear? - I see replacement safety loops, at least. Wire horse hook, side rail support brackets, and fixing loops for the capping strip, which I suspect is also additional. 

 

Coincidentally, this little post-grouping - indeed post nationalisation - excursion I'm on has led me to building a Cambrian LMS D1666 (C58) as a static layout fitting, with one of its side doors down. Let's say that it makes an interesting comparison with the best Parkside kits. Somewhere in between is one of the earlier Parkside kits, for an LNER fitted open (PC25), that I'm also randomly building. Working on it, I'm reminded that a good while ago I built a van that used the same underframe and had found it sub-par for Parkside.

 

Also on my bench today is the Parkside LMS D1661 cattle wagon (PC87) - I think the last kit the firm produced before selling up to Peco. It's another first-rate kit. I'm reluctant to finish this in decrepit 1950s condition; it's virtually a Midland wagon so I think I may go for fresh-out-of-the-paintshop first LMS livery and call it 1923 - at least it can sit along my Slater's Midland D296 cattle wagons, which are the post-1905 design and hence unsuitable for my c. 1902 period. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[Western Star]

4 hours ago, Adam said:

 

 Here's a cameo for my layout.

 

Adam

Um, buckles on the springs to retain the leaves (which otherwise could get out of alignment).

 

Irrespective, rather nice photos of a rather well-presented model, thank you.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Western Star

[Adam]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

Um, buckles on the springs to retain the leaves (which otherwise could get out of alignment).

 

Irrespective, rather nice photos of a rather well-presented model, thank you.

 

The spring buckles are there as moulded by Parkside (though I did reshape the axleboxes).

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now that's a proper P4 job well above my humble efforts. I also note etched V-hanger, brake lever and guide with stay to the axleguard - Ambis as well? Is there anything of Parkside left in the brake gear? - I see replacement safety loops, at least. Wire horse hook, side rail support brackets, and fixing loops for the capping strip, which I suspect is also additional. 

 

 

Ah, EM, I'm afraid. The lever guides are certainly from the Scalefour Society, I think, but I'm not sure about the levers (Masokits, perhaps? The vee hanger almost certainly is). Other changes are a bit more obvious in the picture below, but not the brakes, which, safety loops apart, are Parkside.

 

 

Adam

 

 

[Western Star]

My apologies, zoom in on the photo shows me that the buckles are present and weathered to match the springs.

[41516]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Cambrian LMS D1666 (C58) as a static layout fitting, with one of its side doors down. Let's say that it makes an interesting comparison with the best Parkside kits.

 

Cambrian's D1666 is one of the few kits I've made multiple of but I've not quite found the combination of replacement parts that really brings out the character of the prototype.  Everything below the solebar is a bit naff and I think future builds will replace everything with etched parts.  Cambrian's moulding is also getting worse, and I've had some very 'lumpy' finished parts in kits recently, possibly due to parts being ejected too soon from the moulds.  I'm sorry for the following thread diversion, but can we allow it as MR lot 1005 talk, can't we? 

 

I seem to be carrying over bad habits as a kit collector (One of each! At least!) but for comparison and discussion, top to bottom:

• Best attempt so far at a Cambrian kit (Bill Bedford W irons, MJT Springs/axleboxes, LMS buffers.  Horrid kit brake lever which I'd replace in future and kit brakes. Than door bang plate needs some rust too and the black bits going over.  Bending is a camera effect (sadly).
• Three Aitch - I've weathered over the as-bought paint job and needs finishing/revisiting
• Cambrian - part started from a recent job lot
• ABS - Very shiny as I've stripped the old paint and given it a good brass brushing with the Dremel.
• Westykit - Exceedingly brittle

There's also a Maygib etched kit I am aware of.

 

 

I'm also not sure if it's been mentioned anywhere else, but the ABS kit is taller than all the others.  Cambrian/3H/Westykit.

 

 

Cambrian/ABS/Westykit

 

@AdamI know you started an ABS build over on WT, did you notice the difference with your Cambrian D1666s?

 

 

Finally.... This may or may not be all of the D1666 stash... It's not enough.

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by 41516
duplicated word

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, 41516 said:

'm sorry for the following thread diversion, but can we allow it as MR lot 1005 talk, can't we? 

 

Absolutely. It's a Midland drawing - I've not embedded this link to MRSC item 88-D2113 as it's 17 Mb! Is that ABS version short as well as tall? Or is that just an illusion consequent on it being too tall? I'm too young to have ever had anything to do with ABS kits (having really only started buying whitemetal kits at the tail end of Geen, and building them successfully even more recently) but I haven't been getting a good impression from what I have seen. I have a feeling that they were well-regarded simply because there was no alternative when they first came out.