More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Grahams]

5 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

And in any case, who can prove that you are wrong?

 

Dave

I will look forward to that information coming to light in any way possible, even if it means a repaint! 

[Asterix2012]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Maybe the Midland shunter's trucks were worked differently, such that a brake was unnecessary?

 

In both your BR period photo and the late Midland period photo, the truck is coupled up to a rake of wagons, so is braked by them:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64607.]

 

 

 

Were there not a  couple of these on the Somerset and Dorset as well?

 

Might be another source of info 

[Compound2632]

On 08/09/2022 at 08:26, Grahams said:

The model (by the Furness Railway Wagon Co) referred to in the link from MR Chuffer above does list three Midland running numbers in the instructions, so I assume they have evidence for those.

 

Their model has different axleboxes (possibly a representation of an Ellis?) and they say the wagons were converted in 1900 - 1902. That doesn't fit with the oil axleboxes on what is clearly a D305 conversion, therefore a later build D305. This is if the axleboxes were those fitted on the original wagon build. 

 

I am intrigued. Mark (you're on here somewhere), what is your evidence to support this conversion date and these three numbers? (And what are they?) I agree that the photos show a conversion from a vehicle built with oil axleboxes, i.e. one of the lots from 1905 onwards (see article in the next Midland Railway Society Journal); it seems unlikely that oil axleboxes would be retro-fitted to an older vehicle for a conversion to a truck that was only for yard use. If the date of conversion was around the turn of the century, I would expect a vehicle from the 1880s or 1870s to be used, and it wouldn't get oil axleboxes then, as they didn't become standard until 1902. My feeling remains that this is a post-Great War conversion, using a wagon built c. 1905-7, or possibly later. I'll be very interested to have my feeling challenged by evidence!

 

23 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

From my admittedly somewhat limited knowledge of Midland wagons I always thought that red oxide was only used for Engineers Department stock. The grey paint used on most of the wagon stock would, of course, have darkened quite a bit in service and I also seem to remember that after WW1 wagons were often painted in 'smudge' which was a mixture of all the old paint lying around as well as some war surplus battleship grey. This, I was led to believe, was considerably darker than the 'standard' wagon grey.

 

A point in favour of a post-Great War date for the conversion.

 

23 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Having said all that, I bow to Stephen in his knowledge of Midland wagons and he may well think that I am talking rubbish.

 

Certainly not - that would be very foolish of me. There are areas of Midland wagonry that I'm not well-up on; this may well be one of them.

 

14 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

Were there not a  couple of these on the Somerset and Dorset as well?

 

Strictly speaking, your statement is correct: there were not.

 

What you may have in mind is the 7 ton goods brake van No. 197, built in 1889 to go under a restricted-clearance bridge at Radstock. The photo of it reproduced in Russ Garner's Register [DY 8456] shows that that was quite a different design of wagon and probably built for the purpose, rather than being a conversion of any other wagon. 

 

I was at the National Archives today; I worked my way through the Locomotive Committee minutes Vols. 1 and 3, September 1849 - August 1853 and July 1858 - December 1862, so only the intervening period covered by Vol. 2 to go. So I was on the train home and didn't get the news until I opened the front door.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[phil_sutters]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

what you may have in mind are is the 7 ton goods brake van No. 197, built in 1889 to go under a restricted-clearance bridge at Radstock. The photo of it reproduced in Russ Garner's Register [DY 8456] shows that that was quite a different design of wagon and probably built for the purpose, rather than being a conversion of any other wagon. 

 

Colin Maggs in 'Highbridge in its heyday' confirms that it was built at Highbridge works specifically to go under the 'Marble Arch' at Radstock.

[Grahams]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The model (by the Furness Railway Wagon Co) referred to in the link from MR Chuffer above does list three Midland running numbers in the instructions, so I assume they have evidence for those.

The downloadable instructions say the numbers are 6286, 8455 and 25333. 

 

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Grahams said:

The downloadable instructions say the numbers are 6286, 8455 and 25333. 

 

Checking my number list, I see those are the numbers quoted in Midland Wagons; 6286 is the one illustrated but I have not managed to trace Essery's source for the other two - but they are feasible low side wagon numbers.

 

Anyway, demonstrates there were several, contrary to my scepticism.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632

[Grahams]

I've had a long phone call with Marc @westernthunderer of Pre-Grouping Railways, the designer and maker of the Midland Shunter's Wagon kit in 7mm referred to above. 

He searched and can't for the moment find the source of his information. He says there was a wagon at the Royal Ordnance, Nottingham. At that stage, it was black, tar coloured.

More interesting information may yet come to light. 

[MarcD]

my source for the running numbers is Midland Wagons vol 1 pg34. axle boxes shown in plate 28 are standard LMS. no details on the others. plate 27 taken post 1910 as wagon numbers are painted under the M .

 

Marc

 

[Grahams]

In Midland Wagons V1, RJ Essery, this morning I was studying the corner of the wagon in Plate 73 in order to model it. I was interested to note the words 'RUNNER WAGON' on the side! I had not noticed it before. 

[Grahams]

53 minutes ago, MarcD said:

my source for the running numbers is Midland Wagons vol 1 pg34. axle boxes shown in plate 28 are standard LMS. no details on the others. plate 27 taken post 1910 as wagon numbers are painted under the M .

 

Marc

 

Brilliant thanks Marc. I had missed those. 

The hinges are different from those I have drawn. You are correct. 4 hinges per lid. 

Also, there is a small LMS on the side of the tool box and a definite hint of grey paint on the solebar. However Bob Essery writes '...it seems doubtful if they were painted in the freight wagon grey.' 

[41516]

55 minutes ago, Grahams said:

interested to note the words 'RUNNER WAGON'

 

Presumably for the crane lurking behind it?   I would say it looks like the Cowans Sheldon 6 1/2 & 10t hand cranes (a la the good old Triang Hornby model)?

 

Crane No. RM 71? 

[MarcD]

For those who are attending Scale forum I'm hoping to have a 4mm version on the stand, along with about 64 4mm kits

Just a few of the 4mm kit that are now available.

CR/HR/LMS Sheep

CR/HR/LMS 4 plank open

FR/LMS/BR 12t Brake van

FR/LMS Medium Cattle van

GNoSR/LNER/BR 3 plank open

GNoSR/LNER Coke wagon

MSWJR/GWR 15t  Goods Brake van

NER/LNER/BR Medium Cattle van

S&DJR Peat wagon (1912-25)

S&DJR/LMS peat wagon 1925+)

Marc

Edited September 9, 2022 by MarcD
added images

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Grahams said:

In Midland Wagons V1, RJ Essery, this morning I was studying the corner of the wagon in Plate 73 in order to model it. I was interested to note the words 'RUNNER WAGON' on the side! I had not noticed it before. 

 

It seems that a small number of low side wagons were adapted as crane runners or jib wagons. The standard Midland crane match wagon was very similar in external appearance, apart from having fixed sides:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 64013] 

 

Here's another example of a low side wagon converted to a crane match wagon, photographed at Ashby-de-la-Zouch on 10 June 1952. The wagon to the left of the crane is a pukka match wagon, No. 5533 built at Bromsgrove in 1901 (and hence presumably one of the six of Lot 467 raised in July 1899) while the one on the left is a converted low side wagon, No. 4660 built at Bromsgrove in 1898 (and hence a member of Lot 394 raised in January 1897):

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 62313] 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[Compound2632]

A little while back we were discussing loco coal wagons. I now have an earlier reference to such things than I had before:

 

Locomotive Committee Minute No. 3246 of 15 February 1859

 

Ordered

                That 150 Low side Wagons be appropriated for the conveyance of Coal for the Locomotive department.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Grahams said:

In Midland Wagons V1, RJ Essery, this morning I was studying the corner of the wagon in Plate 73 in order to model it. I was interested to note the words 'RUNNER WAGON' on the side! I had not noticed it before. 

 

By-the-way, this wagon is one of the last 750 of lot 682. 

[Dave John]

Good to see you having a go at some CR wagons MarcD.

 

I'd add the inspection hole covers and the bit of timber at the bottom of the door to fill the gap.

 

[billbedford]

On 08/09/2022 at 07:13, Grahams said:

Thank you Stephen. Yes, you make a good point. It's still odd that they did not have a way of making the vehicle safe on its own.

 

But it had a big enough box in the middle to hold as many scotch as needed. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by billbedford
Undo undo..

[billbedford]

... or even scotches. 

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, billbedford said:

... or even scotches. 

 

I had been concerned about the idea of shunters on duty with a box of bottles of scotch!

[Mikkel]

Not bottles, but still tempting...

 

Caption: "Train carrying barrels from the Welsh Whisky Distillery, Fron-goch, Merionethshire". Source: People's Collection Wales. (Copyright notice says image can be downloaded "for non-commercial purposes, such as for personal use or in educational resources.").

 

Atkins has a crop of this photo in GWR goods operations, he says no. 39630 was an undiagrammed Open built on Lot 325 in 1884.

 

Image also appears here, with a collection of photos titled "Fron-goch Internment Camp (1916)".

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Not bottles, but still tempting...

Caption: "Train carrying barrels from the Welsh Whisky Distillery, Fron-goch, Merionethshire".

 

That's not what the draw-hook is for.

 

From your second link one learns that the distillery went bust in 1910, so that gives a latest date for the photo. As far as I can make out, all the wagons are in the 1904 livery (or lettering style, if one prefers).

[Compound2632]

One for Stephenson Clarke enthusiasts:

 

 

[Embedded link to Brighton Circle website.]

 

The locomotive, originally Craven West End well tank No. 12, is stated to have been in the condition seen between September 1878, when it was renumbered from No. 131 to No. 378, and January 1889, when it was withdrawn.

 

These all appear to be 5-plank wagons with side and end doors and raised at the fixed end. The bottom three planks are of equal width, at a guess 7", with the two top planks progressively wider, maybe 10" and 12", giving a total depth of 3' 7" and a door height of 2 ' 7" - give or take an inch or two either way. The fixed end of the wagon on the left has two narrower planks - maybe 7" - in lieu of the 10" plank - so the end is raised by around 4". The wagon to the right of No. 512 has an end made of five wider planks. 

 

The dumb buffers look to me shorter than the 15" - 16" I'm accustomed to seeing - they seem only to project by the height of the solebar - 12" or so. They have an extra piece on top, so the top is brought up from top-of-solebar height to floor height - 2½" perhaps, or maybe only 2".

 

No. 512 appears to have the rough star pattern on its right hand end, which I've seen in one other photo of a Stephenson Clarke wagon at a Brighton loco shed, that I can't track down right now.

[WFPettigrew]

8 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Not bottles, but still tempting...

 

Caption: "Train carrying barrels from the Welsh Whisky Distillery, Fron-goch, Merionethshire". Source: People's Collection Wales. (Copyright notice says image can be downloaded "for non-commercial purposes, such as for personal use or in educational resources.").

 

Interesting - inside keyed track on the sidings (clearly visible in the foreground and actually in the siding that the wagons are standing on, although that is less obvious).

 

That ever trustworthy (?) source Wikipedia says the GWR only took over the Bala and Festiniog Railway in 1910 which was the year Stephen says the distillery went out of business.  So this is another minor line with inside keying.. 

 

All the best

 

Neil

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

That ever trustworthy (?) source Wikipedia says the GWR only took over the Bala and Festiniog Railway in 1910 which was the year Stephen says the distillery went out of business. 

 

1910 is the year the company was vested in the Great Western but I think - it's not explicitly stated - that it was worked by the Great Western from its opening in 1882.

[corneliuslundie]

Line worked by GWR under an Agreement of 27th March, 1879, and confirmed by Great Western Railway Act (No. 1), 7th August, 1884, S.63

Festiniog and Blaeneau Railway vested in GW and Bala and Festiniog Companies as from 13th April 1883, by Great Western Railway Act, 6th August, 1880, S.63

Amalgamated with GWR as from 1st July, 1910, by Great Western Railway (General Powers) Act, 26th July, 1910, S.55.

Opened 1st November 1882.

From "The Great Western Railway" originally prepared in 1926 by P R Gale of the GWR Chief Goods Manager's Office and reprinted in 1986 by Avon-Anglia

Jonathan