More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

some kind of sharpened hook on a handle

 

Lifting tongs - I'm sure I've seen those used for lifting sleepers in photos of p/way work. Here's the modern DB-approved version but i think you're right that earlier sorts would have dug into the sides of the sleeper, like mason's tongs for stone blocks. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

17 hours ago, swampy said:

I think there is a photo of a train of these sleeper wagons in Bill Hudson's " Through limestone hills", but as I don't own a copy, I could well be mistaken.

Pete

It is not there so where can it be!!!  It is a front 3/4 shot of a block train of these wagons headed by a 4F coming out of Headstone Tunnel, Monsal Dale. (tried the WSP 4F books as well.....)

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

It is not there so where can it be!!!  It is a front 3/4 shot of a block train of these wagons headed by a 4F coming out of Headstone Tunnel, Monsal Dale. (tried the WSP 4F books as well.....)

 

It's not in Brian Radford's Midland Through the Peak, either.

[Siberian Snooper]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Lifting tongs - I'm sure I've seen those used for lifting sleepers in photos of p/way work. Here's the modern DB-approved version but i think you're right that earlier sorts would have dug into the sides of the sleeper, like mason's tongs for stone blocks. 

 

I've always known them as sleeper nips, two men to a "pair", two pairs to a chaired sleeper, possibly 6 or 8 men to a chaired crossing timber.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Siberian Snooper
To clarify the numbers, for a turnout timber.

[Dave Hunt]

This is Bob Essery's S7 model of a sleeper wagon that I bought from his estate and have fettled up a bit with new brake gear and a few other tweaks as well as adding a load. It is shown on my layout where it lives by the PW depot.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

Numbering:

 

 

... with the tattered remains of my BGS rub-down sheet. I'm right out of To Carry so need to order some more up from Fox.

 

No. 41516 is of course the recycled O4 from @41516. I had said to him that there wasn't a 4-plank with this number but on more careful reading of my list compiled from G.W.R. Goods Wagons I realised I had been mistaken. There were several lots numbered in the 41xxx block, out of the "main sequence" of 4-plank numbering. I had not looked beyond the ones that interrupt the numbering in the 44xxx - 46xxx / 49xxx block, the last there being No. 41511 of old series lot 573. I had thus not noted lot 106, Nos. 41512 - 41711 which comes between lots numbered in the 63xxx block. The latter part of this 41xxx block is infested with crocodiles and other such rare beasts.

 

No. 54862 is from lot 34. I've not got one with a 5xxxx number and this is one for which there's a nice photo, of Devomport in 1903, with 16 or 17 4-planks in the picture, though not all with legible numbers:

 

 

I'm unsure what that load is - building materials of some sort, possibly bricks - probably the same in the wagons on either side. There's some interesting wear-and-tear on the door. Maybe something dribbled down from inside the wagon when the door was hanging down - note the light-coloured area of the brake lever. The wagon on the left (No. 45964, for the record) has clearly been carrying something messy such as lime.

[kitpw]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The wagon on the left (No. 45964, for the record) has clearly been carrying something messy such as lime.

...or perhaps puddling clay.  It was widely used in construction and for lining ponds, reservoirs and so on. This reference: https://www.railscot.co.uk/Talla_Railway/article.htm is to 100,000 tons of the stuff for a reservoir in the 1890s:

 

"Materials to be brought in by rail in connection with the reservoir construction project were many and varied. Stone and aggregates were obtained from quarries in North Queensferry and Craigleith. Local whinstone came from workings at Glenrusco on the east side of the Tweed. Pipes, valve gear and pumping equipment came from various mills and engineering firms in central Scotland - and from the Carluke area came Puddle clay, the mix of clay, gravel and sand used to form a watertight seal and perfected by master canal builder James Brindley - over 100,000 tons in all being required in the building of the reservoir." (my italics).

 

https://www.greatlinfordhistory.co.uk/great-linford-railway-station.html includes reference to "puddle" - I assume it got there by rail.

 

[John Isherwood]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Numbering:

 

 

... with the tattered remains of my BGS rub-down sheet. I'm right out of To Carry so need to order some more up from Fox.

 

No. 41516 is of course the recycled O4 from @41516. I had said to him that there wasn't a 4-plank with this number but on more careful reading of my list compiled from G.W.R. Goods Wagons I realised I had been mistaken. There were several lots numbered in the 41xxx block, out of the "main sequence" of 4-plank numbering. I had not looked beyond the ones that interrupt the numbering in the 44xxx - 46xxx / 49xxx block, the last there being No. 41511 of old series lot 573. I had thus not noted lot 106, Nos. 41512 - 41711 which comes between lots numbered in the 63xxx block. The latter part of this 41xxx block is infested with crocodiles and other such rare beasts.

 

No. 54862 is from lot 34. I've not got one with a 5xxxx number and this is one for which there's a nice photo, of Devomport in 1903, with 16 or 17 4-planks in the picture, though not all with legible numbers:

 

 

I'm unsure what that load is - building materials of some sort, possibly bricks - probably the same in the wagons on either side. There's some interesting wear-and-tear on the door. Maybe something dribbled down from inside the wagon when the door was hanging down - note the light-coloured area of the brake lever. The wagon on the left (No. 45964, for the record) has clearly been carrying something messy such as lime.

 

Devonport wagons - china clay in some form?

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, cctransuk said:

Devonport wagons - china clay in some form?

 

Reflecting on this suggestion: the condition of the wagons may well have no connection with the location; one has no idea where they've been previously or how long ago they were stained. 

[MR Chuffer]

This picture puzzles me, I'm reading that the standard British sleeper length is 8'6" (am I right for pre-WW1?), and that the interior length of this wagon is 18ft 7.25ins. If so then I would expect larger gaps at each end. Can someone clarify as I had loaded my wagons widthways - because I was using Peco 16.5mm Streamline sleepers which will be short anyway so will have to make or purchase suitable length sleepers just for loading the wagon. 

[Argos]

The pre WW1 standard sleeper length was 9 feet (although I seem to recall some companies (Caledonian?)  used 8'11" sleepers.) 

[MR Chuffer]

1 minute ago, Argos said:

pre WW1 standard sleeper length was 9 feet

Ah, thx, that's more like the picture.

[Rowsley17D]

35 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

This picture puzzles me, I'm reading that the standard British sleeper length is 8'6" (am I right for pre-WW1?), and that the interior length of this wagon is 18ft 7.25ins. If so then I would expect larger gaps at each end. Can someone clarify as I had loaded my wagons widthways - because I was using Peco 16.5mm Streamline sleepers which will be short anyway so will have to make or purchase suitable length sleepers just for loading the wagon. 

 

MR Chuffer, I've a bag of about 30 8'6" x 6" thin ply sleepers if those are any good to you then PM me. I take it you'll only be doing the top layer with packing underneath?

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

8'6" x 6" thin ply sleepers

 

Ordinary sleepers were 9" x 4.5" section, 9' long until 8'6" came in (when? - post grouping I think?). Point timbers were of heavier section. 

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

8'6" x 6"

Thanks for your kind offer but I am after 9 foot representations for MR 1910 that @Compound2632 cites. Probably some diligent craft knife work on some wooden coffee stirrers will have to do.

Edited August 25, 2022 by MR Chuffer

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Ordinary sleepers were 9" x 4.5" section, 9' long

As a rule of thumb, yes: but...

 

This was quoted on the Basilica Fields website some while ago:

"July 1892 ‑ Accident at Farringdon, 87lbs Bullhead rail 24ft, 40lbs cast-iron chairs.  Sleepers 8’11” x 10”x 5” and 12” x 6′, 9 sleepers to the rail length.  (Chairs) fixed with 2 bolts, nut on top as GWR, well ballasted."

 

This comment followed the above quote (and may shed light on Argos's comment above about the Caledonion's 8' 11"):

"Of real interest in this report is the reference to sleepers of 8’ 11” length ‑ not 9’ 0”, as most modellers think and most historians believe, for track which was laid before circa 1914.  The tax on imported timber appears to have been related to the length of the timber and that there was a breakpoint at 9’ 0”, that is, timber at 8’ 11” incurred a lower import duty than timber at 9’ 0”." (my underlining).

 

I added a comment in the same discussion as follows:

"I was looking for some information on another matter at the Institution of Civil Engineers and came across some “proceedings” dating to 1885 – in fact a record of “Discussion on Metropolitan Railways” some of which touched on the permanent way of the District and Metropolitan. Engineer Owen reports that he had recently been building the Hounslow and Met Railway and had adopted the standard used on the District which, he adds, used one of the heaviest PWs in the world consisting of bull-head rail of 87lbs and a chair of 47lbs on a 12 x 6 cross sleeper. He invites Joseph Tomlinson (Resident Engineer and Locomotive Superintendent to the Metropolitan Railway 1872 – 1885) to state whether the Met used the same. Tomlinson states that the Met had adopted the same standard in 1874, doing away with the Vignoles rail, but that the Met now went even further placing points and crossings on timbers 14 x 7 spaced 2 feet apart. Main line sleepers were placed at intervals of 2 ft 8in. He adds that the chair was not so heavy as the District chair at only 39lbs."

 

Perhaps of more general interest https://www.oldpway.info/drawings/1905jt_d18_GWR.pdf  gives 9' x 10" x 5" for plain track on GWR main lines in 1905.

 

The story of import tariffs on timber is quite compicated but I don't believe that by the start of the C20th, it was an issue for the railway companies and sleepers were probably an actual 9' 0", not a nominal 9'0" ... but I'm not certain about that!

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, kitpw said:

As a rule of thumb, yes: but...

 

What is relevant here is the size of Midland sleepers at the date the model of the sleeper wagon is supposed to represent. The Midland Railway Study Centre has several official p/way drawings, including items 12259 (points and crossings, 85 lb and 100 lb rail, 1918) and 12369 (45 ft 85 lb track panel, 1911). The latter gives standard sleeper dimensions of 9 ft long x 10 in wide x 5 in thick, so I eat humble pie. On the 45 ft track panel, the two sleepers nearest the rail joint are 12 in x 6 in; point timbers are this size or 14 in x 7 in. 

[Rowsley17D]

3 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

Thanks for your kind offer but I am after 9 foot representations for MR 1910 that @Compound2632 cites. Probably some diligent craft knife work on some wooden coffee stirrers will have to do.

 

I also have plenty of cut-to-length crossing timbers 12" wide.

[Crimson Rambler]

Midland sleepers were nominally 9ft x 10ins x 5ins, however there was a tax on imported timber during the nineteenth century 9ft and over in length hence an 1884 drawing of MR 85lbs outside key track states the sleepers as being 8ft 11ins long. Not sure if or when the tax was repealed but certainly later drawings referred to sleepers being 9ft. long. Incidentally, shortly following the arrival of Worthington in 1905 the Midland fitted two 12ins wide sleepers (referred to as joint sleepers) as the first and last ones in 45ft rails.  The joint sleepers were to increase the support at the joint. It started with the 100lbs rail 1907 before spreading to the 85lbs rail in 1911.

 

Regarding sleeper wagons and ordinary sleepers it was the practice in some companies to fit the chairs to the sleepers off-site and transport them to the re-laying point stowed upside down in the wagons. The height of the chairs providing a secure handhold albeit for a heavy load. I suspect the Midland adopted this practice but I'm not sure when it started.

 

One photo I have seen (very early twentieth century) taken during the replacement of set of points (turnout), suggest the timbers were chaired as they were laid so were not delivered already chaired or identified with various location marks implying a previous test assembled. However, I have seen a photograph taken in 1914 of an almost complete single slip together with two additional common crossings laid on flat ground alongside a pair of running lines suggesting a trial assembly before installation. Not sure if it was to become a universal practice or one reserved for more complicated trackwork - my suspicion is the latter.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

[Dave John]

Aye, as Argos says the Caley used 8' 11 "   x 10"  x 5" to avoid the tax. 

 

When I built Kelvinbank I used the C+L 9' ones, but each was given a rub on a bit of emery to remove the injection moulding pip so they are the right length. 

[billbedford]

Before the advent of small electrically powered machinery, sleepers were cut to length by hand. This meant that they were rarely precisely 9' long and almost always not exactly square at the ends. This becomes obvious with photos taken along the track, but such photos tend to be quite rare. 

[Dave Hunt]

I made the sleepers in Bob's wagon from Hobbies' bass wood 6mm x 3 mm cut to length with a razor saw and stained with wood dye. Not correct dimensionally to within a few thou but close enough.

 

Dave

Edited August 27, 2022 by Dave Hunt

[Compound2632]

The Fox transfers arrived as quickly as humanly possible, given Friday's postal strike:

 

 

Many photos of 4-plank opens show the G . W . R lettering stretched out to fill the full width between the side knee washer strap and the corner plate, and that's how I've decorated previous models, but the photo posted above of No. 54862 shows a more condensed style. That's a bit more fiddly to do, as the letters and stops have to be applied individually. Also in the photo, I think the word Tare can just be made out in the position shown, which hints at it only being given to the nearest hundredweight - a style seen in a few photos, though it seems to have become standard with the 1904 livery.

 

While I had these transfers out, I had a go at the Hurst Nelson wagon:

 

 

Robert Geoffrey White's wagon No. 47 is of course a fiction. Occasionally one gets a glimpse of such a cryptically-lettered wagon in the background of a photo but rarely do they gain their own entries in the PO wagon books. R.G. White was perhaps a colliery-owner rather than a merchant, so felt no pressing need for advertising or for paying for more lettering than the minimum needed! In contrast to the GW wagons, the standard layout for PO wagons has been followed, with tare on the left and load on the right, on the curb rail - the usual lettering was Load 8 Tons but I need to rummage through my other transfers to see if I've got the word Load in suitable script lettering. Number is at the left hand end, a common but by no means universal location, though I wonder if it was an RCH recommendation - I wonder if this influenced the Great Western in changing its practice from number at the right hand end, c. 1893? [http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html]

 

There probably ought also to be location, for which I could ransack my LNWR brake van allocation transfers!

 

All three of these wagons now join the queue for matt varnish before weathering etc.

 

While waiting for the Fox transfers to arrive, I pimpled-up the Midland ex-PO wagons, with the Archer rivets - only the sides of one using up the spare parts of the Hurst Nelson kit needed doing, along with a few on the solebars of both:

 

 

That's 174 Archer rivet transfers in total, not all individually applied, since some could conveniently be done in pairs! It's surprisingly therapeutic.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I forgot to mention the registration plate on the Hurst Nelson's solebar - along with the GW transfers i got their little sheet of Gloucester builders, owners, and repairs plates, Chas. Roberts builders plates, and registration plates. The latter are for the four grouping companies plus LNWR but it's hard to distinguish L&NER and L&NWR - I think it's the former I've used, they'd do just as well for LB&SC or any of the longer sets of initials, or MIDLAND for that matter. The sheet does include some left blank for you to write in in white ink your preferred company name and date...

 

Anyway, adding the registration plates reminded me that I ought to go back and scrape the moulded registration plates off the two Midland ex-PO wagons!

 

The Gloucester plates should see use on my Swansea Vale PO wagons. I have used the equivalent POWSides ones before; I haven't checked but I've a sneaking feeling these Fox ones are a little bit bigger. More legible, though.

[57xx]

On 21/08/2022 at 14:25, 41516 said:

The D9 joined it after going through the other three Ratio LNWR rescue wagons I had, to see what parts could be swapped around to produce accurate outcomes.   The Ratio instructions must have befuddled modellers for years as nothing I have acquired has been built with a correct brake/axlebox combination!

 

I can remember mixing up the axleboxes when I built the LNWR wagons from Ratio. You do have to pay attention, as I seem to recall that it's not immediately obvious which underframe is for which wagon. Luckily I caught my error before it was too late.