More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[jamie92208]

Just out of interest here are some photos of the wagons from that area that have the transfers that I commissioned.

First the Craven Lime Company one.  As usual the midland 5 plank as the basis.  The photo posted above was adjusted in photoshop by adjust perspective to produce a rectangle of the correct proportions, then edited pixel by pixel in an old Word Perfect graphics programme.  I was rather pleased with the results.

William Jackman was the local coal merchant for Long Preston and the livery colours were obtained from the Charles Roberts order books at the NRM.  More details came from interviewing and old man in the village.

Charles Lord Aka Tot Lord)  was a coal merchant, among other things in Settle. I went to school with his grandson and did meet him once.  He used to advertise in our chapel magazine and a friend sent me a scan of his advert which allowed me to produce this, along with more info from the Roberts books.

Delaneys had quarries at Horton and at Threshfield near Grassington.  There were a lot of details in the PO registers at TNA and with the Roberts books and a photo in, IIRC one of Bill Hudson's books this emerged.  A Slaters underframe with a scratchbuilt body by Dave Charlesworth.

Spencers had several quarries including Giggleswick and Swinden, both of which are still open. Details in IIRC a Kings cross models book produced this to tie in with info from the PO registers.

 I really must replace that missing axle box.

Jamie

 

[Rail-Online]

Hi Again,

 

The attached is nothing to do with MR D299 opens but I cannot think of anywhere else it would be appreciated and it deserves to be shared. It was taken in Perth about 1925 and shown two former LNWR vehicles in LMS livery.  The interesting one is to the right and is a LNWR Dia 45 Meat van in LMS livery which is not a livery varient shown in the LNWR wagon book.  As can just be made out the LMS is in medium size script high up on the left side with Meat Van above it and presumably the wagon number and tare in a corresponding position to the right. The X on the lower right hand side designates it is a fitted vehicle (- did through piped vehicles also have this?) Anyway as an early LMS modeller I found it interesting.........

 

Tony

Edited August 15, 2022 by Rail-Online
additional info &typo

[Rowsley17D]

The rack in front of the vans looks interesting too. Anybody knows what it is? Might make a feature for a goods yard/sidings.

[Siberian Snooper]

A bit difficult to tell on my tablet, but they look a bit like tie bars, used to stop track spreading when the chair fixings are shot, usually oversized holes caused by the chair screws moving under load. Also a spanner to do up/ undo the bottle screw and lock nuts.

 

 

[Graham456]

Interrupting things  about box van and the bars I bought a couple of wagons at Exeter toy fair for £2.50 and have just built the slaters d299  wagons and am awaiting the paint to dry before putting the M  R  livery on them , but I also picked up three also I guess Slaters midland liveried wagons which also have the hallmarks of being slaters kit builds but are of a longer wheelbase than the currant kit available haveing a 12" foot wheelbase one is easily identifiable as its branded as.  Stores, Sleepers  so is a dig 307 with its foldable drop side, but the other two with the same wheelbase have a plane side with maybe a central door? Paint is a bit thick until I attack them!

 Can't find the in my midland wagon book but that might because I only have volume two so theirbound to be in vol one ! Can anyone tell me what digram wagon thy are please so I can refinish them once the tar brush effect is off !

cheers mates

Edited August 17, 2022 by Graham456

[Rowsley17D]

18 hours ago, Graham456 said:

Interrupting things  about box van and the bars I bought a couple of wagons at Exeter toy fair for £2.50 and have just built the slaters d299  wagons and am awaiting the paint to dry before putting the M  R  livery on them , but I also picked up three also I guess Slaters midland liveried wagons which also have the hallmarks of being slaters kit builds but are of a longer wheelbase than the currant kit available haveing a 12" foot wheelbase one is easily identifiable as its branded as.  Stores, Sleepers  so is a dig 307 with its foldable drop side, but the other two with the same wheelbase have a plane side with maybe a central door? Paint is a bit thick until I attack them!

 Can't find the in my midland wagon book but that might because I only have volume two so theirbound to be in vol one ! Can anyone tell me what digram wagon thy are please so I can refinish them once the tar brush effect is off !

cheers mates

 

Graham, Dia 306 is a sleeper wagon, 8tons, 11ft wheel base with fixed sides. Dia 307 is the same but only the top 3 planks drop down there's no door.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Rowsley17D
Amended from erroneous "drop-down sides".

[Graham456]

27 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

 

Graham, Dia 306 is a sleeper wagon, 8tons, 11ft wheel base with full drop-down sides. Dia 307 is the same but only the top 3 planks drop down there's no door.

Right !

so on the wagon I have only the top three planks drop down making it a dia 307. Even though it's Branded store ,sleepers ? I can just about make out that only the top part might fold through the paint as the bottom three planks have corner plates,more reason to get the paint stripper out ! To get rid of. The lettering Thanks for correcting me that's  one question solved before I incorrectly redo them 

but what about the other two six plankers with no doors in the sides what diagram are they please

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

Dia 306 is a sleeper wagon, 8tons, 11ft wheel base with full drop-down sides

This is incorrect according to Essery, "D306 having fixed sides...", and the photo and diagram clearly show no door(s).

 

FYI The 11ft wheelbase is the same as the Slaters MR Large Cattle Wagon if you fancy making some more.

[Rail-Online]

3 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

 

Graham, Dia 306 is a sleeper wagon, 8tons, 11ft wheel base with full drop-down sides. Dia 307 is the same but only the top 3 planks drop down there's no door.

These are both Colin Ashby plastic body kits which he supplied with slaters underframes.  Quite scarce and difficult to get hold of nowadays.

 

Cheers Tony

[Rowsley17D]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

This is incorrect according to Essery, "D306 having fixed sides...", and the photo and diagram clearly show no door(s).

 

FYI The 11ft wheelbase is the same as the Slaters MR Large Cattle Wagon if you fancy making some more.

 

Of course, @MR Chuffer is quite right dia 306 has fixed sides. I didn't read Essery properly, apologies.

 

Dia 307 only has only the top 3 planks as dropping down to make loading and unload sleepers easier. Both are Sleeper Wagons and photos in Essery show a D306 labelled " STORES SLEEPERS" and a D 307 labelled "MR" with "STORES SLEEPERS" over their tops.

[Compound2632]

Glad to see you've been keeping yourselves occupied while I've been on holiday!

 

Thanks for the lime photos, @jamie92208. In one I spy dumb buffers...

 

I can't contribute much to the sleeper wagon discussion apart from regret that I never came across the Colin Ashby kits when they were in production. All I can offer is photographic disambiguation (these are of course simply the photos in Midland Wagons):

 

D306, a member of lot 70, built in 1882, according to the Index of Photographs of Wagon Stock (Midland Wagons Plate 14):

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 64649.]

 

D307, a member of lot 273, built in 1892, according to the aforementioned Index:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 64648.]

 

According to the Lot List (and hence Midland Wagons), there were three lots built to Drg. 535 (lot 70 of 1881, 50 wagons; lot 137 of 1885, 20 wagons; and lot 273 of 1891, 175 wagons) and one lot, lot 495 of 1900, 50 wagons, to Drg. 1456, described as "similar to lot 273 on standard underframe" - which is where things get complicated. Both photos show the early style of support for the brake-shaft, with a vee-hanger attached to the outside face of the solebar and a vertical support, which I suspect is a bracket attached to the underside of a central transverse timber. This implies non-continuous draw-gear, with the buffing springs placed behind the middle bearers rather than behind the headstocks. This was the arrangement used on the first 16' 6" covered goods wagons - D362 - to Drg. 981, being changed to continuous draw-gear in 1894, Drg. 1032, so was current when lot 273 was built. The "standard underframe" referred to re. lot 273 is presumably an underframe with continuous draw-gear, as by then in use for cattle wagons, the tell-tale being the brake-shaft being supported by a pair of vee-hangers, one either side of the solebar. 

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has copies of both drawings, items 88-D1740 and 88-D1878. It would be interesting to see whether the copy of Drg. 535 is marked up to show the change to drop-side, and if so, when - my guess would be for lot 273, in which case we have:

• lots 70 & 137, 70 wagons - fixed sides, non-continuous draw-gear, 8A axleboxes
• lot 273, 175 wagons - drop sides, non-continuous draw-gear, Ellis 10A axleboxes
• lot 495, 50 wagons - drop sides, continuous draw-gear, Ellis 10A axleboxes

... which goes to show that the diagrams don't tell the whole story.

 

The lot 70 sleeper wagons were by no means the first. I haven't yet tracked down the origin of the type but in the four-year period 1867 to 1870, 59 high-side sleeper wagons were built as renewals, and 20 as additions to stock in 1873. These wagons would presumably have been of similar dimensions to the later sleeper wagons, since to carry efficiently 9 ft sleepers, a wagon with an internal length of a bit over 18 ft is required. In the absence of other information, one could guess at the differences to later wagons by looking at the photos of Kirtley-era cattle wagons in Midland Wagons: the design of the body-work was clearly established in that period and scarcely changed in Clayton's time, but the running-gear and brakes were more primitive.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

On the question of lettering for the sleeper wagons, the photo of the fixed-side lot 70 wagon shows the style in use at the time it was built (or photographed) in the 1880s, before the large MR lettering became ubiquitous, whereas the photo of the drop-side lot 273 wagon shows the style that was in vogue from the early '90s to the end of Midland days, to the best of my knowledge. In the absence of photographic evidence, I think it's reasonable to assume that fixed-side wagons ended up with the same layout of lettering, STORES SLEEPERS moving up one plank. I've got an inkling I have seen a photo of the drop-side type in LMS livery, with LMS replacing MR but other lettering unchanged. 

[Compound2632]

On 06/08/2022 at 16:36, 41516 said:

Update on the glue damaged D54 seen previously in the thread and some further observations now the replacement chassis has arrived (in fact, both sets. the original and a second set I impatiently ordered came through the letterbox the same day).  The internals are beyond salvage, so a plasticard panel is now located one plank deep ready for a coal load.

 

Something seems a bit 'off' with the supplied grease axleboxes and springs - those made available by @Quarryscapes now suffer the outrageous postage costs from Shapeways and for a rebuild of a scrap wagon were definately off the table. Splitting off one of the salvaged axleboxes from the ruined bendy chassis (2 grease, 2 oil, naturally...) and a root through the spares box - MJT/Ratio/Parkside lined up on the left side below.

 

I concluded that the shoes on the Ratio springs were a bit lumpen and using shoes from Parksides would keep the beefier springs suitable for a coal wagon, within what I had to hand in the spares box.

 

Next thing was the relationship between the bottom of the axleboxes and w-irons as there seemed to be far too much space under the axleboxes. Reviewing the drawing on the LNWR.org.uk site I noticed the kit w-irons were wrongly shaped for the D54 and therefore looking too long. The quick solution was that the bottom keepers were cut off, the reshaping done and replacement spare etched keepers glued back in place.  I don't think this has been commented on before - any suggestions from those more informed on LNWR matters than I?

 

Attention to detail...

 

... I shall have to raise my game!

[Compound2632]

  

On 07/08/2022 at 14:20, jamie92208 said:

Back to Stanforth and  crane is loading a Craven lime Co Wagon. 

 

Isn't it typical that No. 104, the one wagon of which you have a good clear photo, should be one that does not appear in the Midland PO registers? No. 48 does, being listed as a Chas Roberts product registered in Nov 1901.

  

On 07/08/2022 at 14:20, jamie92208 said:

Here is another view of the quarry and kiln. Some interesting wagons in the foreground.

 

This is the one I mentioned with the dumb buffer wagons. They seem to have three planks, possibly 9", giving 2' 3" sides, and raised ends. One has a single wooden brake block with a long lever but the lever faces the left-hand end of the wagon, so I'm wondering if the photo has been reversed?

 

 

[41516]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Attention to detail...

 

... I shall have to raise my game!

 

What comes with modelling something I have almost no prior knowledge of - and no LNWR books on the shelf either!

 

A near final update from the scrap D54, done bar final paint and decals.  You can just see some distortion of the 2nd plank up at the brake end and a little bit of general bowing of the sides. There are a few bolt heads missing on the ends, they may or may not get replaced with Archer decals.   I think it'll get finished in early 1920s condition (i.e. scruffy!) and hope no-one notices.

 

I'm out of split spoke wheels, so will need to order some as well as transfers.  Any suggestions as the recent HMRS sheets seem to be getting bad feedback from the print quality?   Do the current Ratio boxings still have LNWR options on the sheet?

 

 

The D9 joined it after going through the other three Ratio LNWR rescue wagons I had, to see what parts could be swapped around to produce accurate outcomes.   The Ratio instructions must have befuddled modellers for years as nothing I have acquired has been built with a correct brake/axlebox combination!

 

The D64 needs the single brake on the other side swapping for a set of doubles and a strip/repaint.  The badly built (and also slightly curved) D1 surrendered either sides brakes and oil axleboxes to the D9 which also gained MJT springs.  The D1 is also missing a side, so unless anyone has one lurking in a spares box, that's a scratchbuild job for another day.

 

 

If I was doing the D9 again, I think I'd file down the front of the oil axleboxes and reverse them to give a reasonable starting point for the first type of LNWR AB as mocked up below... Maybe on the D64.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by 41516
spelling

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, 41516 said:

o will need to order some as well as transfers.  Any suggestions as the recent HMRS sheets seem to be getting bad feedback from the print quality?   Do the current Ratio boxings still have LNWR options on the sheet?

 

The Ratio kits (now under the Parkside by Peco banner) do come with a set of waterslide transfers; these are subtly not quite the same as the original ones - I have a suspicion someone went for the "nearest font" (with the issue that implies - horizontals slightly narrower than verticals) rather than the original artwork. Nevertheless I have used the TONS COAL WAGON lettering. 

 

I had a couple of HMRS LNWR wagon sheets about four years ago, after a period when they had been unavailable. Those are of perfectly good quality. I gather there may have been further problems finding a firm able and willing to manufacture them since. 

 

I don't myself use the LNWR lettering, so if you're interested...

 

But diamonds are a LNWR modeller's best friend and hence hoarded. 

[41516]

 

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't myself use the LNWR lettering, so if you're interested...

 

I'm sure we can come to some arrangement!  The reported issues with recent HRMS sheets seems to be mostly around image registration with multiple colour layers, so plain white print could be fine, providing there is only one pass at the printing stage.

 

[Compound2632]

I have been informed that the HMRS are now using a new printer* and these issues have been resolved. 

 

*By which I understand a firm, rather than a piece of equipment.

[41516]

I also had the message about the new printer.  To put my money where my mouth is, I've ordered the Pre-Group goods sheet directly from the HMRS. It won't help with with this group of wagons (I just have no need for a LNWR sheet that size), but I have L&Y and NSR somewhere in the queue and a near finished MR D351 that can be used as a guinea pig to hopefully start spreading some good news.

Edited August 21, 2022 by 41516

[jamie92208]

On 21/08/2022 at 13:42, Compound2632 said:

  

 

Isn't it typical that No. 104, the one wagon of which you have a good clear photo, should be one that does not appear in the Midland PO registers? No. 48 does, being listed as a Chas Roberts product registered in Nov 1901.

  

 

This is the one I mentioned with the dumb buffer wagons. They seem to have three planks, possibly 9", giving 2' 3" sides, and raised ends. One has a single wooden brake block with a long lever but the lever faces the left-hand end of the wagon, so I'm wondering if the photo has been reversed?

 

 

Looking at it I think that it has been reversed. The Hoffman kiln is at the northern end of the site with the main line to it's west.  This is obviously not right.  I'll reverse it and repost in due course.

 

Jamie

Edited August 22, 2022 by jamie92208

[jamie92208]

22 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Looking at it I think that it has been reversed. The Hoffman kiln is at the northern end of tge site with the main line to it's west.  This is obviously not right.  I'll reverse it and repost in due course.

 

Jamie

I've managed to get into my graphics editor and have now flipped the picture.  I should have realised it was reversed when I posted it. It's not very good quality as it's a copy of a copy that I scanned.

That is looking north with the quarry face on the east side and the kiln chimney in the centre.  You can see the lift at the south end of the kiln where tubs of coal were taken up to the kiln top and the coal poured down little chutes.  You can walk round the interior of the kiln and see where the loading platforms were either side of it.  The height of those platforms dictated the use of 5 plank wagons.

 

As to wagon 104 perhaps it was built during LMS times so wouldn't appear in the MR registers.  The crane looks relatively modern so it could well be well after 1922 and before the mid 30's when Settle Limes was formed.

 

I've reloaded the picture in the original post.

 

Jamie 

Edited August 22, 2022 by jamie92208

[swampy]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

On the question of lettering for the sleeper wagons, the photo of the fixed-side lot 70 wagon shows the style in use at the time it was built (or photographed) in the 1880s, before the large MR lettering became ubiquitous, whereas the photo of the drop-side lot 273 wagon shows the style that was in vogue from the early '90s to the end of Midland days, to the best of my knowledge. In the absence of photographic evidence, I think it's reasonable to assume that fixed-side wagons ended up with the same layout of lettering, STORES SLEEPERS moving up one plank. I've got an inkling I have seen a photo of the drop-side type in LMS livery, with LMS replacing MR but other lettering unchanged. 

I think there is a photo of a train of these sleeper wagons in Bill Hudson's " Through limestone hills", but as I don't own a copy, I could well be mistaken.

Pete

[Rowsley17D]

11 hours ago, swampy said:

I think there is a photo of a train of these sleeper wagons in Bill Hudson's " Through limestone hills", but as I don't own a copy, I could well be mistaken.

Pete

 

A quick flick through doesn't find anything.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

A quick flick through doesn't find anything.

 

You're not the only one to have reached that conclusion this morning. I'm sure we've been round this before upthread but a search doesn't find the discussion - I think that it doesn't work back far enough (yet) since the great Dediserve debacle. 

 

There is a photo of two of the drop-side type together in Midland Wagons, plate 72a. This is dated c. 1892-3, so the wagons are presumably nearly new, from lot 273. Unfortunately they're at an angle at which the lettering is invisible. One is loaded flat to the just above the rave but the other is carrying point timbers leaning up over one end.

 

I do recall doing a load / capacity calculation. The internal width was 7' 2¼" - enough for 19 9" x 4½" sleepers on their sides across the width - and depth was 3' 4⅞" - enough for 5 layers of sleepers with the top layer projecting a few inches above the rave. The internal length was 18' 7¼" - enough for two lots of sleepers, so that gives a capacity of 390 sleepers. That's about 480 cu ft - the diagram gives a capacity based on the internal dimensions alone of 452 cu ft. Taking a density of Baltic pine of 510 kg/m^3 (uppermost of range found online) = 32 lb/cu ft gives a load of just under 7 tons, well withing the weight carrying capacity of the wagon - 8 tons.

 

There was also some discussion about loading and handling - how were the sleepers got out of the fixed-side wagons? No conclusion was reached but there's no sign of any roping round the flat-loaded sleepers in the above-mentioned photo.

 

 

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You're not the only one to have reached that conclusion this morning. I'm sure we've been round this before upthread but a search doesn't find the discussion - I think that it doesn't work back far enough (yet) since the great Dediserve debacle. 

 

There is a photo of two of the drop-side type together in Midland Wagons, plate 72a. This is dated c. 1892-3, so the wagons are presumably nearly new, from lot 273. Unfortunately they're at an angle at which the lettering is invisible. One is loaded flat to the just above the rave but the other is carrying point timbers leaning up over one end.

 

I do recall doing a load / capacity calculation. The internal width was 7' 2¼" - enough for 19 9" x 4½" sleepers on their sides across the width - and depth was 3' 4⅞" - enough for 5 layers of sleepers with the top layer projecting a few inches above the rave. The internal length was 18' 7¼" - enough for two lots of sleepers, so that gives a capacity of 390 sleepers. That's about 480 cu ft - the diagram gives a capacity based on the internal dimensions alone of 452 cu ft. Taking a density of Baltic pine of 510 kg/m^3 (uppermost of range found online) = 32 lb/cu ft gives a load of just under 7 tons, well withing the weight carrying capacity of the wagon - 8 tons.

 

There was also some discussion about loading and handling - how were the sleepers got out of the fixed-side wagons? No conclusion was reached but there's no sign of any roping round the flat-loaded sleepers in the above-mentioned photo.

 

 

Just a thought would there be a man at each end with some kind of sharpened hook on a handle then they could be thrown out sideways.

 

Jamie

Edited August 22, 2022 by jamie92208