More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

My copy is nearly falling apart it's had so much use.

 

I have to admit to having two copies - one for use, falling apart, and one for best!

 

16 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Some years ago Bob Essery and I floated the idea of an updated version of Midland Style using George Dow's work as the basis. We had several others on board for the project and approached Andrew Dow for permission to use his father's material but he refused so the project died.

 

Does it actually need updating? There are a few places where the information given could be expanded upon but that information is usually already published elsewhere.

 

Anyway, I note that there are plenty of reasonably-priced second-hand copies about.

 

Andrew Dow's attitude seems odd but should perhaps not be discussed further.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks both of you. The HMRS gets asked about a new edition every so often but it is obviously not a viable project.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

A bit of modelling to keep us going:

 

 

This is chiefly to show off the corrected brake on the 15 ft D53 (left). Compare:

 

 

[Embedded link to LNWR Society website D53 page.]

 

The long brake lever is two Ratio long levers welded together at the joggle over the axlebox.

 

The POWSides / Slaters Swansea Vale wagons had been languishing, thanks to my uncertainty about the interiors. I'll coal them up... Assembly involved a bit of fiddling around, diagrams to follow. I had made up sets of brake-gear with the solid safety-loops replaced with microstrip in my usual way but could I find them? The advantage of modelling single-sided break gear is proven once again:

 

 

Doing the conversion while the part is still attached to the sprue makes spray-painting much simpler! Unfortunately I'd alread used on of the spares so had to find an alternative spare, which I think came off the Chas Roberts tank wagon also now going through the paint-shop. While the black rattle-can was to hand, the Cambrian Hurst Nelson wagon got its nondescript black:

 

 

That'll be let down a bit, once I've added some suitably nondescript lettering. 

 

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Andrew Dow's attitude seems odd but should perhaps not be discussed further.

But that wasn’t a proposal for an update, but a new book.

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The HMRS gets asked about a new edition every so often but it is obviously not a viable project.

Based on the audience here, maybe not, but it isn’t representative of the whole potential market.

[Regularity]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A bit of modelling to keep us going:

 

Are you attempting to recreate one of those accident photos?

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Are you attempting to recreate one of those accident photos?

 

Great space saver! Cakebox challenge, anyone?

 

[corneliuslundie]

An excellent view of the brakegear too.

But you would have to get everything under the wagons exactly right.

Jonathan

[Ian Smith]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Great space saver! Cakebox challenge, anyone?

 

Glad to see that the roping down of the sheets has kept the loads intact 😆

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

23 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks both of you. The HMRS gets asked about a new edition every so often but it is obviously not a viable project.

Jonathan

Perhaps a separate supplement might answer the need, if the original is still fairly readily available s/h. The LNWRS did this with a supplement to the LNWR Wagons book to cover some less common wagons that weren't covered in the WSP books.

[Nearholmer]

Was it in this thread that we were talking about road-stone and tarmac, and whether there was much of them being shipped about pre-WW1?

 

Well, I’ve just acquired a book that gives a fascinating (to me, anyway!) insight to the state of road surface pre-WW1, inThe form of the Cyclists Tpuring Club route guide to SW England of 1913.

 

Road surfaces were a really big issue to cyclists, and each route (strip map and gradient profile) is accompanied by a sort of ‘weather forecast’ of surface condition of the “good, becoming poor later, very loose in places, two dangerous hills” kind. In the intro it talks about how they collated information from local members, and consulted with the various county surveyors to get the detail. The default road was a non-tarred, Macadam type, and anything different gets a special mention, wood-block being particularly hated, especially with tramway rails, and I can find very few sections that have been tarred.

 

So, graded road-stone probably was shipped into areas with no local source of anything robust enough, because a Macadam road uses three seized sizes of stone.

 

The other thing to note is that by 1913 motor cars were becoming enough of a danger and annoyance (throwing up dust and grit) that the intro says that they are beginning to drive cyclists off of the main roads and onto byways.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Was it in this thread that we were talking about road-stone and tarmac, and whether there was much of them being shipped about pre-WW1?

 

Yes, I think so, re. Mendip granite to Cranleigh. See Nick's post here:

The whole question of early 20th century road surfaces was gone into at greater depth (so to speak) in @Mikkel's workbench topic a while back. There I think the focus was more on urban roads, including the obligation of tramway companies to surface the road in the vicinity of their lines, leading to a greater variety of surfaces, including those wood blocks, I think. Given that the expansion of the electric tram network coincided with the mass withdrawal of D299s...

[Asterix2012]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think so, re. Mendip granite to Cranleigh. See Nick's post here:

The whole question of early 20th century road surfaces was gone into at greater depth (so to speak) in @Mikkel's workbench topic a while back. There I think the focus was more on urban roads, including the obligation of tramway companies to surface the road in the vicinity of their lines, leading to a greater variety of surfaces, including those wood blocks, I think. Given that the expansion of the electric tram network coincided with the mass withdrawal of D299s...

Wooden blocks or setts were also used where There was a danger of spark’s from metal tyres used on horse drawn wagons 

 

some were recently dug up on roadworks in Dundee city centre, it’s believed they were used due to the danger of sparks setting fire to the jute being transported 

 

Main reason why the pugs used in the docks here had spark arresters fitted, and also why when the LNER tried using a Sentinel shunter it was swiftly removed due to the sparks emitted.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Asterix2012 said:

Wooden blocks or setts were also used where There was a danger of spark’s from metal tyres used on horse drawn wagons 

 

I've not seen that explanation before. Noise reduction has been mentioned, I think.

[Asterix2012]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've not seen that explanation before. Noise reduction has been mentioned, I think.

It was mentioned at the time the setts were dug up, they may now be in the local museum.

 

Jute has some interesting combustion properties, once alight in quantity it’s very difficult to put out, and it can smoulder for some time 

 

The smell is also something else when it does go up.

[Compound2632]

I had a trip out to the Didcot Railway Centre doday. I managed to find a red engine, lurking at the back of the shed:

 

 

Of course the carriage shed was a draw. I was interested to note, getting my nose up close, that the brown line on the cream panels of the Dean carriages is clearly not the same as the chocolate colour of the lower panels. It's redder - closer to the mahogany colour of the bolections and droplights.

 

There's not much on the wagon side to appeal to my 19th-century predilection, other than mink and a fruit van - Y1? But not only did I get a good look at either-side right-handed Dean Churchward brake but also the Morton clutch - on both near side and off-side. 

 

I'd mentioned I had some parts left over from the Cambrian Hurst Nelson wagon kit:

 

 

No particular prototype reference here; the plan is to finish it as a Midland ex-PO wagon. The Derby photo posted by @Crimson Rambler shows that a good many of these wagons had four wide planks - 9" giving 3' 0" depth - rather than five, so the Cambrian Wheeler & Gregory kits are good candidates for these too.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Compound2632

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I had a trip out to the Didcot Railway Centre doday. I managed to find a red engine, lurking at the back of the shed:

 

 

What a beauty, took me 40 years to build a decent model of her!

[Nearholmer]

It is a wonderful loco, as is your model.

 

Is there a good book about the S&PT? I’ve got all interested in it since going on a bike ride round that way and realising that I’d crossed the route, and maybe even ridden along a bit of it.

[MikeOxon]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I was interested to note, getting my nose up close, that the brown line on the cream panels of the Dean carriages is clearly not the same as the chocolate colour of the lower panels. It's redder - closer to the mahogany colour of the bolections and droplights.

That sound like something on which @K14 might be able to comment. Could the difference be due to the underlying paint colour?

[Compound2632]

On 03/08/2022 at 19:37, Compound2632 said:

The Derby photo posted by @Crimson Rambler shows that a good many of these wagons had four wide planks - 9" giving 3' 0" depth - rather than five, so the Cambrian Wheeler & Gregory kits are good candidates for these too.

 

 

Cambrian kit C74, Wheeler & Gregory 4-plank wagon. Both wagons have axleguard wing washer plates from the MJT axleguard etch; the Hurst Nelson bitza has drawbar plates from the same source. The dumb buffers once hardened overnight will be sawn to length.

 

It's all very crude:

 

 

The solebar moldings are cut back and extensions from Evergreen 0.157" x 0.060" strip welded on. The dumb buffer is built up to full width - scale 11" or so - with two pieces of 0.157" x 0.040" strip. The first one just overlaps the join between solebar molding and extension, so strengthens the joint. The solebars are then fixed to the floor. The headstock molding is cut short to fit in the gap, all traces of the buffer guides being removed. The headstocks are fixed to the end and the ends to the floor. Only then is the tird layer of dumb buffer added, butting up tightly to the headstock.

 

 

[K14]

12 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

That sound like something on which @K14 might be able to comment. Could the difference be due to the underlying paint colour?

 

Guilty as charged. I lined out one side of each of 933 & 1941 & used the mortal remains of BG Third 250 as a reference. The lines on 250's cream panels are rather less than 100% clear, but I interpreted them as being more Indian Red than Windsor Brown (the numbers are definitely gilt with an Indian Red shadow).

The shade I used was mixed by eye using A.S.Handover's flat Red toned down with black.

 

Pete.

[MikeOxon]

11 hours ago, K14 said:

 

Guilty as charged. ....

.... and caught in the act 🙂

 

Mike

Edited August 5, 2022 by MikeOxon
typo

[Rail-Online]

More 'edge of neg' stuff but very unusually we have both sides of a MR brake van on the same day.  It is June 23 1958 at Sutton Bridge on the M&GN and van M927 is branded for restricted use.

 

Cheers Tony

[Compound2632]

A coat of Halfords grey plastic primer:

 

 

Ready for a round or three of Archer rivet transfers...

Edited August 6, 2022 by Compound2632

[41516]

Update on the glue damaged D54 seen previously in the thread and some further observations now the replacement chassis has arrived (in fact, both sets. the original and a second set I impatiently ordered came through the letterbox the same day).  The internals are beyond salvage, so a plasticard panel is now located one plank deep ready for a coal load.

 

Something seems a bit 'off' with the supplied grease axleboxes and springs - those made available by @Quarryscapes now suffer the outrageous postage costs from Shapeways and for a rebuild of a scrap wagon were definately off the table. Splitting off one of the salvaged axleboxes from the ruined bendy chassis (2 grease, 2 oil, naturally...) and a root through the spares box - MJT/Ratio/Parkside lined up on the left side below.

 

I concluded that the shoes on the Ratio springs were a bit lumpen and using shoes from Parksides would keep the beefier springs suitable for a coal wagon, within what I had to hand in the spares box.

 

 

Next thing was the relationship between the bottom of the axleboxes and w-irons as there seemed to be far too much space under the axleboxes. Reviewing the drawing on the LNWR.org.uk site I noticed the kit w-irons were wrongly shaped for the D54 and therefore looking too long. The quick solution was that the bottom keepers were cut off, the reshaping done and replacement spare etched keepers glued back in place.  I don't think this has been commented on before - any suggestions from those more informed on LNWR matters than I?

 

The Parkside spring shoes were then used with the kit springs and axleboxes- a reasonable compromise for a budget rebuilt I think. Amended on the left, kit parts on the right.

 

 

I'm going to go with the arrangement of offset door banger spring and door plate moved down as seen below, hopefully by careful use of a fresh blade onto the 2nd plank up and assume similar on both sides.  This also means the wagon plate needs moving too, I probably should have looked at that while the chassis was not glued in place....

 

(I must also remember to probably change the wheels over to a set of split spokes)

[jamie92208]

A few days ago I mentioned that I had some photos of PO wagons near settle at Stainforth Quarry part of the Craven lime Company.   By chance i found them yesterday whilst reloading photos to my UK railways thread. They are not brilliant quality but were given to me by a guy who wrote a book about the Limestone Quarries in the Dales.  I have no idea of the source and only a few ideas about dates.  However as they have PO wagons in them I hope that Stephen will not mind the diversion.  Here is a rather squat loco that worked in one of the quarries.  Not sure of which one.

The Ribblesdale Lime Company had two quarries at Helwith bridge that used the same main line connection.  This is one of their locos.  I have a works plate off another.

This shows the siding going into the limestone quarry known as Foredale.  The quarry was at the top of the hill up an incline which can be seen.  The kilns are on the right.  Coal was offloaded into narrow gauge wagons then taken a short way up the incline before going to the top of the kilns.  Lime was loaded directly from the kilns into the empty coal wagons.

This shows the whole complex.  Foredale is the large white are to the left.  Below it is Arcow Granite.  That still exists today as a source of roadstone and has a new private siding as the curves on the original were too sharp for modern wagons.

2 miles north at Horton in Ribblesdale was Beecroft limestone quarry owned by John Delaney. The Hansons and now IIRC Lafarge. No longer rail connected.

Back to Stanforth and  crane is loading a Craven lime Co Wagon. I used a Midland 5 plank as the basis for the POWSIDES transfers for this company. This is probably in the late 1920's as Settle Limes was a marketing name for all the local quarries. They actually merged in the 30's.

Aerial photo of Stainforth Quarry.  Now a historical site where you can walk round the old oval Hoffman kiln, the chimney of which can be seen.  It had it's own signal box till it was partially demolished one night by a derailed freight wagon.  The signalman was shaken and stirred but not injured.

Here is another view of the quarry and kiln. Some interesting wagons in the foreground.

And a view looking north.

I hope that these are of interest.

 

Jamie

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by jamie92208