More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, kitpw said:

"More than 120 archive photographs from what was Britain’s oldest shipping company [Stephenson Clarke] have been saved from ending up in a skip."  Headline in Newcastle Chronicle,  June 2015. Doesn't sound encouraging does it?

 

Where's the 'heartbroken' emoji when you need it. That is the sort of thing that happens all too frequently where family, or even business, records are concerned. Maybe there could be a law about offering such things to a local archive before they are chucked – would probably have to wade through a lot of rubbish to save the good stuff though.

[Crimson Rambler]

Plaistow (LT&S) had a conventional coaling stage with a water tank on top - the LMS introduced a conveyor belt as seen here.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

[kitpw]

Stepping back a page or two, the question of coal capacity and consumption was mentioned, in which context, these quotes are interesting:

 

"In 1909 Bowen Cooke in association with Marsh on the LBSCR tested the Precursor type against the superheated I3 4-4-2T on the through working bewteen Brighton and Rugby on the Sunny South Express. Nock computed the coal consumption on the tank engine at 27lb per mile" [Nock, O.S. The L.N.W.R. Precursor family: the Precursors, Experiments, Georges, Princes of the London & North Western Railway. 1966]

 

Talking about the B4s: "As for coal consumption, that would depend, of course, on the weight of the train; but I would reckon on a maximum of about 70 lb per mile or (say) a ton and a half from Brighton to London – plus the amount required for building up a fire to begin with." [Rich, Fred. Yesterday once more: a story of Brighton steam. 1996].

 

Both quoted here: https://www.steamindex.com/locotype/lbscrloc.htm

 

Note the difference - 27lbs per mile against 70lbs per mile.

 

[wagonman]

That is a noticeable difference! I assume we're talking roughly the same same train weight so is it the effect of superheating? Or were the B4s also superheated at that time.

 

Confused of Cley

Edited July 26, 2022 by wagonman
spilling

[Compound2632]

The excessive coal consumption of the Whale 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s was a cause of considerable unrest on the part of the footplatemen, at a time when industrial relations were shaky anyway. So Bowen Cooke's interest in superheating was motivated by more than just fuel economy; it was also to stave off revolution.

[Compound2632]

Woo-hoo! The 6-wheelers are back: https://www.slatersplastikard.com/carriages/4mmCarriages.php

[Nearholmer]

Calm down; it’s only a carriage.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Calm down; it’s only a carriage.

 

True, I needed sedating when the wagon kits came out.

[Grahams]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Woo-hoo! The 6-wheelers are back: https://www.slatersplastikard.com/carriages/4mmCarriages.php

Whatever would we do without Slater's?

By the way, I'm planning to design and build a Midland clerestory carriage in 5 inch gauge. Someone has requested a 12 wheel Dining Carriage. First I will build a 6-wheeler to prove the concept. 

Really looking forward to it. 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Grahams said:

By the way, I'm planning to design and build a Midland clerestory carriage in 5 inch gauge. Someone has requested a 12 wheel Dining Carriage.

 

A 65 ft diner would be 6 ft long over the buffers...

 

As I'm sure you are aware, the Midland Railway Study Centre has a considerable collection of Midland crockery and cutlery, that you could use as references. I think it may mostly come from hotels rather than dining carriages but they were run by the same department, under the superintendancy of Mr Towell - nominative determinism at its best.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Compound2632

[Jol Wilkinson]

48 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Whatever would we do without Slater's?

By the way, I'm planning to design and build a Midland clerestory carriage in 5 inch gauge. Someone has requested a 12 wheel Dining Carriage. First I will build a 6-wheeler to prove the concept. 

Really looking forward to it. 

The same can be said for many of the "Small Suppliers"  of kits. Several spring immediately to mind (depending on which railway/period you model).

 

Despite the frothing that appears when a RTR manufacturer/commissioner announces a pre-group locomotive in 4mm, they have actually done very little to enable the  people to model pre 1923 or early grouping era.

 

[Krusty]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Calm down; it’s only a carriage.

 

Self-loading wagons we used to call them at work.

[Grahams]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The same can be said for many of the "Small Suppliers"  of kits. Several spring immediately to mind (depending on which railway/period you model).

 

Despite the frothing that appears when a RTR manufacturer/commissioner announces a pre-group locomotive in 4mm, they have actually done very little to enable the  people to model pre 1923 or early grouping era.

 

Yes, agreed. I am even becoming a small supplier myself although no pretentions to the size of Slater's. 

I have recently sold wagon kits in 22.225 mm scale (7/8th scale) and when I ask myself if I want to make them for what people are prepared to pay, the simple answer is 'No, it's not worth it'. The margin on materials and energy is fine (maybe 80%) but if I include my time, it's ridiculously low. I can improve my processes to reduce the time but I prefer to be researching new models. 

Slater's are in a different league from most of the small suppliers though. They have a real factory with injection moulding, CNC machines and investment casting. The issue will be that nobody will want to carry it on if David White and his family decide enough is enough. 

[Grahams]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A 65 ft diner would be 6 ft long over the buffers...

He already has a train of 9 Pullman coaches. It's quite long and heavy. It needs its own special Transit van to travel 

[corneliuslundie]

And strong individuals (I nearly said men) to list them.

I agree about RTR locomotives pre-1922, in general (there have been a few such as the Hornby GWR 28xx and a couple of Prairie tanks) but there are quite a few suppliers of kits. For the companies I am interested in, CamKits, Taff Vale Models and what used to be Furness Models (now Pre-Grouping Railways as his range has grown and to distinguish him from a model shop in Ulverston).

But if everyone was modelling the pre-grouping period, would we still want to model that period?

Jonathan

 

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Despite the frothing that appears when a RTR manufacturer/commissioner announces a pre-group locomotive in 4mm, they have actually done very little to enable the  people to model pre 1923 or early grouping era.

 

What they have done, if only to a small degree, is to shift the centre of gravity a tiny bit in the direction of pre-grouping, which must help.

[Regularity]

And Slaters have provided various sizes of plastikard and MEK for decades, so support if there for those who want to have a go and acquire the skills…

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Regularity said:

And Slaters have provided various sizes of plastikard and MEK for decades, so support if there for those who want to have a go and acquire the skills…

 

This packet of Slater's Microstrip was bought about forty years ago (the price, 95p, doesn't show up):

 

 

I'm not sure what that proves other than that I'm a slow worker.

[Crimson Rambler]

@Compound2632 - you are not alone in being a slow worker.

 

Two Slater's wagon kits taken from the pile waiting to be built:-

 

The D299 is somewhat younger as that cost £6 something (£6 - 22?)

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

What they have done, if only to a small degree, is to shift the centre of gravity a tiny bit in the direction of pre-grouping, which must help.

From close association with one Smaller Supplier over many years, it is clear that the introduction of a RTR model for which a kit is already available, has a considerable negative impact on sales of that kit. 

 

At the same time, that impact on sales of associated rolling stock and other items is negligible.

 

So while the centre of gravity does shift, it isn't necessarily a positive thing.

[Nearholmer]

Hmmmm ........ I find it hard to believe that the introduction of r-t-r items causes absolutely no increase in the number of people who take-up modelling of the relevant railway/period. For instance, there are several examples on RMWeb of people who have entered modelling earlier times by way of use or adaptation of r-t-r items. The connection might not be obvious and direct, and it may not immediately result in individuals buying kits, but r-t-r models plant seeds in peoples minds.

[chris p bacon]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Hmmmm ........ I find it hard to believe that the introduction of r-t-r items causes absolutely no increase in the number of people who take-up modelling of the relevant railway/period. For instance, there are several examples on RMWeb of people who have entered modelling earlier times by way of use or adaptation of r-t-r items. The connection might not be obvious and direct, and it may not immediately result in individuals buying kits, but r-t-r models plant seeds in peoples minds.

 

Unfortunately if it does make a difference then it's so minor that it barely registers.  The Bachmann Atlantic followed by the Stirling Single has seen no difference to those that model the GN. The most I've seen is the Stirling Single pulling Mk1's as it did in the 80's.

[Nearholmer]

So, in the round, pre-grouping modellers would either prefer that no r-t-r pre-grouping models were made, or really don't care whether they are or aren't made, is that the position? I'm genuinely curious.

[chris p bacon]

For me, although I own some RTR I much prefer building my own. In conversation with some club members I was asked why I model the GN, their reasoning was that without anything being manufactured it was too difficult. My response was that as it was difficult I felt it was more worthwhile and certainly more enjoyable.

[Regularity]

When I first decided to go to S, local club members asked why, and I blithely (and glibly) answered, “Because 00 is too easy.” Oh, how they laughed at the folly of gauche youth.

A few years later, at different times, I was asked by friends to help out with, respectively, a 4mm and a 7mm scale kit.

After this experience, of working with someone else’s idea of how to build something, I realised that other scales (at least, these two) were actually more difficult!