Are we at a crossroads?

[jjb1970]

Perhaps, but don't forget the hobby survived and found new entrants back when there was far less trade support than, I think, you are suggesting.

That's a fair point, but in days of old people could find a model shop in most towns of any size and see models on the shelves. If we do move increasingly towards a pre-order model where you order up front in advance on trust or miss out then that makes it a lot less attractive to newcomers. Of course they could buy second hand and I hope that Hornby and Bachmann thrive in the future but it is a concern to me, just what would happen if easy routes into the hobby for newcomers were to fade away. Peoples expectations also change in response to the market and product on offer. As a boy when Hornby catalogues contained very little new tooling, the life cycle of tooling was measured in decades and you were offered a generic model that provided a decent impression of the prototype I was very happy. Now the market demands prototype specific details and a constant stream of newly tooled releases. Which I'm not saying is a bad thing, just that things change constantly. Some changes are for the better, others not, but the hobby will continue to evolve and survive.

[johnarcher]

That's a fair point, but in days of old people could find a model shop in most towns of any size and see models on the shelves. If we do move increasingly towards a pre-order model where you order up front in advance on trust or miss out then that makes it a lot less attractive to newcomers. Of course they could buy second hand and I hope that Hornby and Bachmann thrive in the future but it is a concern to me, just what would happen if easy routes into the hobby for newcomers were to fade away. Peoples expectations also change in response to the market and product on offer. As a boy when Hornby catalogues contained very little new tooling, the life cycle of tooling was measured in decades and you were offered a generic model that provided a decent impression of the prototype I was very happy. Now the market demands prototype specific details and a constant stream of newly tooled releases. Which I'm not saying is a bad thing, just that things change constantly. Some changes are for the better, others not, but the hobby will continue to evolve and survive.

I wonder if the reduced, pre-ordered, more expensive RTR you foresee, and a smaller hobby with smaller suppliers would mean a shift towards an updated (new technologies) form of the more kit-based hobby of the past - I thought that's what you meant in your previous post by a shift towards 'serious modellers'. As I said people managed to start in the hobby when the route in was via kits much cruder and harder to build decently than what is done now (and could be more so).

[jjb1970]

Unfortunately there are so many possibilities it is all conjecture. I do see an increasing move towards low run, high end models from smaller suppliers and commissioners. I really do not see price as an issue for that market, yes some will not be happy and some will move into other parts of the hobby but there will be enough willing to pay to sustain a specialist market. Most serious modellers start out somewhere and develop and hone their skills. Few start by jumping straight into fine scale, and whilst people do start with kits sometimes (there is a whole hobby of plastic kits indeed) I think most probably start with simpler RTR and with initial efforts that look crude and basic in hindsight yet which are hugely satisfying and which draw people in to achieve more. Which is why I tend to see ranges like Hornby Railroad as important in providing an affordable entry point and also lower cost models which less experienced modellers will be prepared to repaint, super detail etc and so develop skills.

[BG John]

Does railway modelling have to continue in the way it is now? I haven't taken much interest in other branches of modelling, but don't people like military modellers do more in the way of dioramas rather than large scale scenes? There are loads of railway scenes where trains aren't moving, spread over 200 years of history, from navvies building early lines, to abandoned and rotting stations, and for most of the time on most railways, nothing moves. So there's loads of scope for modelling static railway scenes. To add some movement, simple micro layouts with scenery to a high standard, only need one loco and a few wagons. Rather than build one big layout, maybe some people could build lots of small scenes from different times and places.

 

Railway modelling is fairly unique in it being practical to have a lot of movement of the main feature in a relatively small space, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to go. It wouldn't be great for the big manufacturers for people to move towards smaller scenes with less action, but it would be more affordable, maybe attract new modellers, and allow those who struggle to cope with the very wide range of skills needed for layout building to concentrate on developing their skills in fewer areas.

 

It might be where I'm heading, as I'm building a number of small layouts on different themes, each requiring a relatively small amount of locos and rolling stock. I do wonder if I'll actually operate them much, and whether having finished them I might have a go at a few small scenes rather than a big layout.

[Kelly]

Unfortunately there are so many possibilities it is all conjecture. I do see an increasing move towards low run, high end models from smaller suppliers and commissioners. I really do not see price as an issue for that market, yes some will not be happy and some will move into other parts of the hobby but there will be enough willing to pay to sustain a specialist market. Most serious modellers start out somewhere and develop and hone their skills. Few start by jumping straight into fine scale, and whilst people do start with kits sometimes (there is a whole hobby of plastic kits indeed) I think most probably start with simpler RTR and with initial efforts that look crude and basic in hindsight yet which are hugely satisfying and which draw people in to achieve more. Which is why I tend to see ranges like Hornby Railroad as important in providing an affordable entry point and also lower cost models which less experienced modellers will be prepared to repaint, super detail etc and so develop skills.

 

Plastic kit building as a hobby is much bigger and joined up in a sense, as all countries use the same scales (1:144, 1:72, 1:48:, 1:32,1:35, 1:24 etc) for the various sub-sets of it (planes 1:444-1:24, boats 1:1200-1:72, military 1:76-135 (of course many more exist!). So from that perspective a manufacturer has a much easier task of making money back on a run of kits as a P-51 or a Spitfire in various scales will be suitable in most countries on a shelf with other similar era planes etc (a lot of people tend to focus on one era/nation/service etc). The IPMS is a rather large organisation that holds annual shows worldwide as well as competitions, some of the modelling on show at these events is breathtaking, especially in the larger scales. Before I started down the route of model railways, model planes was my primary interest (as military aviation is a primary interest (particularly cold war/ww2)), but trains are a bit easier to store (at least in 4mm) than say a Avro Vulcan in 1:72 in a small flat. That said, diecast planes are very popular too and I have a fair few planes on shelves around the flat (mostly in 1;144 or 1:100 scale).

 

Does railway modelling have to continue in the way it is now? I haven't taken much interest in other branches of modelling, but don't people like military modellers do more in the way of dioramas rather than large scale scenes? There are loads of railway scenes where trains aren't moving, spread over 200 years of history, from navvies building early lines, to abandoned and rotting stations, and for most of the time on most railways, nothing moves. So there's loads of scope for modelling static railway scenes. To add some movement, simple micro layouts with scenery to a high standard, only need one loco and a few wagons. Rather than build one big layout, maybe some people could build lots of small scenes from different times and places.

 

Railway modelling is fairly unique in it being practical to have a lot of movement of the main feature in a relatively small space, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to go. It wouldn't be great for the big manufacturers for people to move towards smaller scenes with less action, but it would be more affordable, maybe attract new modellers, and allow those who struggle to cope with the very wide range of skills needed for layout building to concentrate on developing their skills is fewer areas.

 

It might be where I'm heading, as I'm building a number of small layouts on different themes, each requiring a relatively small amount of locos and rolling stock. I do wonder if I'll actually operate them much, and whether having finished them I might have a go at a few small scenes rather than a big layout.

 

Yes, military modellers focus on a single tank or vehicle usually and go all out for the dioramas. Very rare to find such items motorised, though in the larger scales they do sometimes add lights, sounds and movement (moving props on aircraft), but for 1:48 and below scales it is traditionally too awkward to fit such things in easily (especially something like a Spitfire with narrow fuselage and no room in the windows (true of the real thing too, hence short range but high speed)). I've considered a german V-1 or V-2 launch site with a model train as part of the diorama (primarily as the germans used trains to transport fuel and ammo to bases, but the RAF and USAAF didn't for fuel generally to the same location as the fighters/bombers, but to central fuel/ammo depots.

 

It would be good to see more dioramas for model railways I think, something Model Rail touched on in the recent issue.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Something to recognise in all of this is that there is a difference between evolutionary change and doom. I do think the hobby is evolving and that we will see profound changes in the years ahead,...For example if you are going to be much more selective and buy less but maximise the satisfaction from those models that you do still buy then why not consider a move to a small O Gauge layout? Or high end HO? Or try building kits? Rather than confine yourself to an artificial horizon offered by OO RTR suppliers ...

 Sixteen years ago there was a very distinct 'evolution' in that quite abruptly two, and then shortly after three, RTR manufacturers began introducing OO models to a standard that had previously always required kit or scratchbuilding. Exactly as described in the quote that led me to re-evaluate my plans; and instead of HO, probably North American, a BR(ER) germ was sown.

 

I saw nothing but good news in this, but be it noted that there were some crying 'Doom is upon us' over that event. Consequently, I have bought over the past sixteen years quite a quantity of smaller UK supplier's 'kits and bits', which would not have got a penny from me without the RTR...

[coachmann]

Gloom & Doom merchants have been around for decades even in the days when model railway magazine pages were filled with articles on railway modelling. The only mention of proprietary RTR at one time was on 'Junior Modeller' pages and the like seeing a it was still a kiddies toy. Today's doom & gloom inevitably involves RTR, such is the change that has taken place in recent years. In fact since railway modellers can see the benefits of today's RTR, yay, even the old school, it is a vastly larger market and is maybe why Hornby and Bachmann have produced locos outside big, green & named range. Ergo, vastly bigger gloom & doom haha.... 

[Talltim]

We would like the Jag but can afford the Skoda situation!

What's wrong with class 90s?

[47137]

A few years from now, we might be looking at a secondhand market of models with broken details and misguided weathering, and a 3-D printing technology to run off new body shells in the right colour with embedded lining. There will be a new service of "chassis cleansing" and small suppliers of kits to embed neodymium magnets into our favourite body shells and chassis.

 

Probably a bit fanciful at the moment, but it would add a new stream of modelling, make a brass kit as retro as a whitemetal one, and leave us as free as we are now to choose to model in balsa instead of styrene.

 

While the hobby "as a whole" will continue to evolve, this will still be by expansion of techniques and approaches. Pre-existing approaches will remain valid for the individual wishing to follow to them. So more of a network of roundabouts than a single cross roads.

 

- Richard.

[Gwiwer]

A thought-provoking and astute post from Andy Y to kick off a very pertinent discussion and a subject which is likely to affect the future of our hobby in the immediate short term as well as the more distant future.

 

I don't have the access to board-room figures nor to those whose hind quarters might polish the chairs in such board rooms but one or two of us here do have such contacts.  From those down to the retailer's shop floor and the modeller's collections there is change sweeping through whether we like it or not.  It is not driven by one factor alone but by the overall and ongoing organic changes to our society.

 

Yes Chinese labour costs have increased; no it isn't yet financially viable to return production to British shores nor might it ever be so for larger manufacturers.  We have come through a period of generally increasing affluence and of slowly rising disposable incomes in many cases but have found this is hitting the buffers.  We also live in an age when a toy train set will no longer keep Tommy amused from one birthday to the next - he wants the latest computer games (which might involve a railway simulation) and he wants them now.  When the upgrade is released next week he wants that now as well.  Everything is becoming use-once-and-throw-away.  Except that our models are built to last far longer than that.

 

We are witnessing the emergence of the "one-man" business (which requires far more than one man, of course) into the hobby such as Rapido, DJModels and Oxford Rail.  All lean businesses without huge overheads to carry and all managing to offer quality products pitched into perhaps niche markets or where the majors have been wary of treading.  True we have some duplication but that was not necessarily intended at any point.  With the huge range of RtR models which has been offered over the past 15 - 20 years or so there are not many well-known types which haven't been "bagged" and the real railway sees far less variety than it did in steam days.  There are many steam types not yet produced and I hear the LNER fans in particular wailing and gnashing their teeth every time another SR  loco is announced.  I suspect the reality is that many of the LNER types represent eras which are not widely modelled by the "box-openers" though I'm prepared to be corrected on that of course.  Then again is that cause, effect or a bit of both?  If all the early 20th Century types were on offer in blue, red or purple boxes would we see an explosion in staithe-based planks and a need to endless rakes of coal / iron ore wagons?

 

In my own case the collection for the current layout is effectively complete though I had several years of purchasing significant amounts of rolling stock.  I now only buy a few carefully-chosen items many of which are for personal enjoyment rather than operation until such time as I build a Southern-themed layout.  So while I am buying much less than a couple of years ago I am spending about the same in dollar terms because the prices are higher.  Translated across the hobby that has a potential to mean negative growth or at best stagnation.  Fewer net sales will mean less investment in new models and smaller production quantities.  That in turn drives up retail prices further in order to maintain profitability throughout the supply chain.  Which in turn forces the customer - the modeller - to consider whether they really do need that new loco, or even whether it's worth adding another wagon to the goods rake at the price asked.

 

We have had it good for a generation.  I'm afraid we have left that time behind and must now accept that RtR will become a shrinking market though not necessarily at the cost of detail and quality.  Fewer but well-built and reliable items should produce fewer complaints and engender greater trust and repeat business.  It is the lean and the fit who will survive.  Maybe also the majors who have assets sufficiently spread to weather a long hard road ahead.  

 

Those of us who want something not in the catalogues are likely to have to build it ourselves rather than wait with fingers crossed.  3D printing and the resources of the internet will certainly benefit some here.  Who knows what further advances lie ahead in the technological field?  We can already order books from a self-published source which are printed on demand.  How long until we see someone offering perhaps a class 88 loco produced not as a limited edition of 512 nor a commercial release of thousands but done singly to order?  At what price would be another story but possibly without overheads to carry and stock to sell through it could be done within today's ball-park.

 

After all they said there was no future in micro-pubs because they would be too small to be self-sustaining.  Those I know are very far from that and are very much thriving enterprises.

[47137]

A thought-provoking and astute post from Andy Y to kick off a very pertinent discussion and a subject which is likely to affect the future of our hobby in the immediate short term as well as the more distant future.

 

. . .

 

Fewer net sales will mean less investment in new models and smaller production quantities.  That in turn drives up retail prices further in order to maintain profitability throughout the supply chain.  Which in turn forces the customer - the modeller - to consider whether they really do need that new loco, or even whether it's worth adding another wagon to the goods rake at the price asked.

 

We have had it good for a generation.  I'm afraid we have left that time behind and must now accept that RtR will become a shrinking market though not necessarily at the cost of detail and quality.  Fewer but well-built and reliable items should produce fewer complaints and engender greater trust and repeat business.  It is the lean and the fit who will survive.  Maybe also the majors who have assets sufficiently spread to weather a long hard road ahead.  

 

 . . . 

I like and agree with all of this post so quoted here to try to follow on to a small part of it.

 

I have a rather gloomy list of RTR models I have bought new and then sold on within a year or two. Part of the turnaround is from my changing interests but a chunk is from being unhappy with mechanical designs, build standards and running qualities. Whereas, over the last six months almost all of my purchases have been secondhand models and almost all come with a metal chassis and screws not plastic clips to hold them together and let you dismantle them. I've dismantled them, fettled them, rebuilt them and enjoy them.

 

If the RTR manufacturers continue to need to cut costs, I'd prefer to see metal chassis, daylight under the boiler and a pack of detail items for me to add. This would be closer to the Continental models I have rather than a return to moulded handrails and major errors in dimensions. I'm happy with solid buffers and fixed cab doors, I can't see the benefit of operable ones.

 

It this approach means fewer different models, but production runs every year, I could look forward to buying them rather than feeling the need to buy now before they sell out, and I'd regard this as progress.

 

- Richard.

[Tony Wright]

Gloom & Doom merchants have been around for decades even in the days when model railway magazine pages were filled with articles on railway modelling. The only mention of proprietary RTR at one time was on 'Junior Modeller' pages and the like seeing a it was still a kiddies toy. Today's doom & gloom inevitably involves RTR, such is the change that has taken place in recent years. In fact since railway modellers can see the benefits of today's RTR, yay, even the old school, it is a vastly larger market and is maybe why Hornby and Bachmann have produced locos outside big, green & named range. Ergo, vastly bigger gloom & doom haha.... 

I have similar thoughts, Larry, though I still think that the the older-age profile in the hobby today is a more serious concern for its future than at any other time. 

 

Was it the Railway Modeller who had a section called 'Proprietary Modeller'? It was different from the 'Junior Modeller' section, in that it featured systems built by adults but using RTR equipment. The contemporary 'Railways of the Month' all featured what I call 'proper modelling', especially with regard to locos and rolling stock, where just about everything had been built. How different from today. A glance at the contemporary press reveals the complete opposite of those 'formative' years. That's why it was such a delight for me to take pictures of the Irish layout in the latest issue of BRM.

 

On a purely personal level, I've now decided to use RTR stuff (particularly locos) as little as possible. Once one has rummaged through the impossible packaging to find all the bits which have dropped off and either re-fixed them or given up, or struggled with trying to straighten bendy bits, why bother? The only RTR loco I've had recently which will pull the same as a kit-built alternative is Heljan's O2 (I'm bound to say that), and that was even better after the fallen-off bits were put back on!

[coachmann]

The crossroads is probably one of those 5-lane traffic light systems where we wait to see which display green for the route we are hoping to take and which one directs us into a dead end DIY unit which is facing closure...

[rue_d_etropal]

Had a quick scan through this, but for me the comparison with model kits9non railway) is most relevant.

Most plastic kit manufacturers target their products at those who like building kits. It is the building of those kits which is the fun part. Not dissimilar to those who do jigsaws for fun.

Many, possibly most in our hobby are more interested in final product, hence the massive rise in improved r2r models, but not forgetting r2p  models. This has had a massive effect on the hobby, some positive some negative, but new technology(laser cutting and 3D printing) will add a whole new element to the hobby. I don't think many actually fully appreciate what this technology can do.

I think that the big changes in the hobby have their origins in the late 70s and early 80s, when the forerunner of todays Bachmann, namely Palitoy, introduced good quality models, which were let down by poor motors. Many of those bodies are still being produced by Bachmann, and upgrades are normally only to the chassis and motor(eg V1/V3 and Collett Goods). Even the Airfix models have stood the test of time, but again let down by poor motor design. Personally I would rather see the quality for body design set at what was being done then, with fewer small bits to get lost or broken, and also easier to put together so maybe cheaper.

Many r2r models probably don't get used as much these days, simply because people are scared to use them. The semi permanent coupling system is a nightmare, so once set up, putting back in box is not an option, and display cabinets might become more popular than working layouts.

Having said that, there is still plenty for railway modellers to do, what ever they choose to use, from ready assembled bases , some with scenery, to scratchbuilding everything.   Most will probably opt for something in-between.

[johnarcher]

Had a quick scan through this, but for me the comparison with model kits9non railway) is most relevant.

Most plastic kit manufacturers target their products at those who like building kits. It is the building of those kits which is the fun part. Not dissimilar to those who do jigsaws for fun.

Many, possibly most in our hobby are more interested in final product,

I think you're right, in fact the comparison is the same with most other modelling hobbies, not just plastic kits - military modellers, wooden ship kits etc. - in most case people are making models, as you say, for fun - that is the heart of the hobby.

No doubt that's why we keep having making vs RTR debates here, as people in our hobby are divided between those who, as you say want the final product, and those whose approach is more like that in other modelling hobbies.

Maybe future changes, new technologies, declining numbers etc. will alter that balance, I don't know.

[coachmann]

Was it the Railway Modeller who had a section called 'Proprietary Modeller'? It was different from the 'Junior Modeller' section, in that it featured systems built by adults but using RTR equipment. The contemporary 'Railways of the Month' all featured what I call 'proper modelling', especially with regard to locos and rolling stock, where just about everything had been built. How different from today. A glance at the contemporary press reveals the complete opposite of those 'formative' years. 

You are probably right about it being 'Proprietary Modeller'.  During those years of extensive kit activity I bought Railway Modeller for its advertising and Model Railway Constructor with Steve Stratten at the tiller. We were both into road vehicles and I did the first supplement with a Crossley DD42 bus. Model Railway News was bought for it's scale carriage drawings, so each had a niche.

[Arthur]

 

There is a significant difference in our hobby than say ship, aircraft and military modelling. By and large the latter build the vehicle (or whatever) and that's it, they may build a small, static diorama to display it on.

 

We, on the other hand, take on the building of a slice of countryside, buildings, infrastructure, permenant way. It has electrics. We have rolling stock to build let alone the locomotives.

 

Quality RTR gives us the option to allocate our time differently IF we choose so to do. Why struggle with a loco kit if you prefer landscaping or building construction? Hopefully, somewhere in that mix there is some actual modelling.

 

Collecting RTR models to display is an entirely different hobby.

[PaulRhB]

The very fact we have so much very good rtr these days has brought in many for whom the building of locos and stock may have been the barrier to publishing or exhibiting their layout.

There are loads of kits out there if building is what you enjoy. Equally pure operation with minimal scenics is a very old part of the hobby. These days there's a lot of crossover between the two extremes and many points along that scale that suit individuals.

Do you have trouble finding a model of the loco and stock you need for your preferred idea or is it just currently out of production?

If the models are truly popular then they will come out again, if the model isn't good enough then use it as a starting point to detail and improve.

If it's 'just wrong' then can you do better, and rather than demand a new version get on and do it another way.

The hobby is changing, more models than ever before are available and for many of us less time to devote to it.

Have we seen the golden age of quantity because of the huge post war generation who remember steam? Probably.

But have we seen the golden age of quality? Exquisite models suitable for a showcase were once down to personal skill or bank balance but now we can get them out of the box. I grew up in Hornby in the 70's and 80's and chose to build kits and learn model making because it was fun learning with friends made at a club. Exhibitions attracting younger people in and getting them started is key not scaring them off with only the cream of models. I suspect many now regarded as the best modellers started with Hornby O clockwork or Dublo and still achieved 'ultimate' models. How many kids today have had proper opportunity to use lathes and pillar drills at school? We did and we made parts to repair a local play park, were entered into events such as building pedal powered cars.

How many shows now feature a stand with lathes etc?

Drones and helicopters selling like mad prove kids will play with mechanical toys, but frequently they crash and break leading to parents not being able to repair it, or afford parts,and it getting put aside. Model trains aren't subjected to those extremes and last much better but take up space that's often hard to find in modern shoe box homes. Micro layouts amuse some but others want trains at speed.

So think about promoting the hobby, show the wide variety of themes don't just focus on ultimate realisim.

There are a few good start sets in oo and N but how often do we see them laid out to see what you get and what you can add?

Doom and gloom and giving up will inevitably be self fulfilling, remembering what enthused you and adapting that to be relevant to the modern day is the future. Sell someone the trains they see but show off a TTS steam engine and see where it leads.

 

A friends lad had model trains dumped in a box that didn't work, his parents had split and dad used to sort them out. I helped him by getting him to take them apart and see what was wrong so he could do it himself with the knowledge I'd help if he got stuck. He wasn't afraid of it any more and now volunteers on the local 7 1/4 railway and drives steam locos. It was that simple, now he's out with friends from the railway going to shows and to see full size stuff like Scotsman.

So do the future a favour, don't take the neighbours kids trains to sell them ask if they'd like to fix them up and help build a layout. Share the knowledge and there's no reason another crop of modellers won't result.

[jjb1970]

One part of the hobby which has declined since I got interested in the hobby is the operators layout by which I mean those large, complex layouts which were operated in strict accordance with prototypical signalling and train control procedures and time tabling and precision. Some of those layouts could be quite basic in terms of scenery and use RTR rolling stock yet in their own way they represented passion, skills and attention to realism which was as impressive as fine scale and kit building IMO.

 

I think Arthur makes a very valid point that modelling and collecting are very different hobbies. The idea of modelling encompasses a huge spectrum from building a 6x4 train set based on set track, the old Railroad type scenic accessories and all RTR stock through to scratch built fine scale with a huge gulf in between. The collectors often get a bad rap on forums yet collectors provide a significant source of sales for the manufacturers which helps make investment in new tooling attractive and as such they are an important part of a healthy customer base for manufacturers. And that benefits modellers as much as collectors.

[47137]

I think in the near future we will be at a crossroads within the RTR aspects of the hobby; it doesn't take any mystical divination of runes, just observation of trends and reactions.

 

There has been some adverse reaction to rising prices, prices have generally risen over the last two years but the impact and implications of any rises ranges from conspiracy theorist claptrap (the funniest one I've heard recently was that prices are rising to fund the Chinese military) through to acceptance.

 

. . . 

 

So what do want? More choice? Lower prices? Better quality? Better value? Or all of it? If you listen to the conspiracy theorists then there seems to be some perception of entitlement to the latter. I couldn't quite catch my breath when it looked like someone was hopeful of currency value collapses post-referendum if it meant they could get cheaper models overseas.

. . . 

I would like to see models which can serve four different kinds of buyers:

1. Collectors (put in a cabinet) 

2. RTR buyers (put it on the track)

3. Improvers (add some details)

4. Specialists (change the wheels)

 

I haven't included toys for the train set market here because I think they can be produced by a company which can copy old models (a bit like the Hatchett Mk1 coach) and sold alongside other toys, in supermarkets or Argos or wherever.

 

For my four groups of buyers, I think everyone would like these attributes:

a. accuracy in major dimensions

b. protypical liveries

c. packaging you can use

 

and then, working down my list of buyers, add

d. a design which lets you dismantle for servicing

e. robustness for normal use

f. running qualities

g. detail pack and holes to fit the parts

h. keeper plate design on chassis or bogies

j. additional set of brake gear for EM and P4

 

I'm sure this isn't exhaustive, but if a set of attributes along these lines became the norm then it would be easier to judge the good answers to Andys questions. In particular, if a detail pack with holes to fit the items became standard, the buyer could choose the balance of robustness and detail to suit them and models like the Hornby Tornado might appear in only one form commercially, reducing future development costs and letting retailers stock a smaller range.

 

- Richard.

[Ozexpatriate]

My theory is that those in the hobby will split into 4 groups:

Collectors

Aquisitors

Perfectionists

Impressionists

I would like to see models which can serve four different kinds of buyers:

1. Collectors (put in a cabinet) 

2. RTR buyers (put it on the track)

3. Improvers (add some details)

4. Specialists (change the wheels)

I absolutely agree that there are different buying patterns for different model railway enthusiasts.

 

At the end of the day I'm still in the 'broad church' camp and rather than trying to taxonomically subdivide the mythical Fanaticus sculputra-ferriviaria-anglica* into smaller groups, I see multiple buying tendencies at work in many of us.

 

* I throw down the gauntlet to someone to come up with an adequate (and amusing) Linnaean binomial pair.

 

Surely it is possible (and even likely) to have individuals who will:

• purchase a less expensive model to add details
• purchase a detailed RTR model to run on the layout
• purchase an 'iconic' model to put on a shelf

quite possibly all on the same shopping trip. (And yes, online shopping counts.)

 

Using Phil's taxonomy, an 'acquistor' could, when the last of wee bairns crawls out of the burrow, find him or herself with a room to build the dream layout and, after trips to the local DIY and model railway emporia for adequate supplies of wood and Peco streamline, quite overnight become an 'impressionist'.

 

The advent of detailed, inexpensive RTR has introduced new buying preferences, but the commercial model railway suppliers' industry is in just as much flux as ever - more to do with how they manage their companies in the constantly varying economy, than a 'crossroads' brought on by consumer behaviours.

 

Were I a British outline model railway supplier, I might think that the single most volatile contribution that consumers inflict on suppliers is the intensity of price sensitivity expressed, when (observing the Fanaticus sculputra-ferriviaria-anglica in it's natural habitat) I think there is actually a lot of price elasticity in the 'market'.

[PaulRhB]

Years ago I'd just had delivered the etches to build a mallet when Lifelike announced a model of the same loco. The chassis etches eventually ended up under O16.5 locos as the cost of all the parts was only slightly cheaper than the rtr one and they'd done all the complex work on shapes and rivets etc. So I still buy loco kits and scratchbuilt for subjects where there is no rtr, 7mm scale Darjeeling and 7/8ths NG currently, but to be honest the fun for me lies in building layouts and operating. I fancy a Q6 which I'd never get round to building a kit for but would look good running on my fathers north eastern layout to keep sharing the hobby, so I'll probably buy him one for his birthday

I don't see why modem rtr is viewed by some as a problem when it could be an opportunity to say ok now you can get your layout up and running quick but how about building that oddball kit to go with it? I learnt to build O gauge track so I could have a small layout at home after building industrial locos for the club layout. Twenty years later and there still isn't an rtr option on the small radius track, though it's close. The only difference is I had a friend who was happy to help teach me the techniques. I still find building track tedious and would much rather buy it but if I need a custom piece I can do it.

We are very lucky that there are some excellent books on such higher end skills and although they aren't common they will last and allow those who want to to understand even if there's no one directly to teach. There are loads of archaeologists who would love that sort of resource

Snobbery about what 'proper' modelling is, is more likely to scare people off learning the 'black arts' and self fulfill the hobby's demise.

I've seen demos of etch kits at shows that kids avoid as of no interest but the same modeller engaging kids by letting them operate a 2mm fine scale layout and that could then lead to a less intimidating introduction to the fun of building as the conversation has started with showing the fun result. Jerry and Highbury take a bow

The only secret is he embraces both approaches to catch both ends of the spectrum.

[The Stationmaster]

Revised signage erected at the crossroads this morning as r-t-r prices will be likely to rise for a new reason (although it might not be a permanent one) and some 'manufacturers' will be looking carefully at their balance sheets and cash positions.  Long term effect is indeterminate of course so could go either way.

[bike2steam]

I don't see why modem rtr is viewed by some as a problem when it could be an opportunity to say ok now you can get your layout up and running quick -.

-er !

So right Paul, to some of us rtr is a godsend, especially when spare-time is in short supply, it's all right for those with little else to do in life to get on their high horse, but some of us have to compromise.

[jjb1970]

Revised signage erected at the crossroads this morning as r-t-r prices will be likely to rise for a new reason (although it might not be a permanent one) and some 'manufacturers' will be looking carefully at their balance sheets and cash positions.  Long term effect is indeterminate of course so could go either way.

Without wanting to make this political I'll be cutting right back on discretionary spending until I get a better idea of what will happen as I just see too many risks ahead and if hard times are approaching there are more important things to worry about than model trains etc.