Horsetan Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Dead right about cash flow, I've said it before here many times. I get about one pay cheque a year (although it tends to be a biggie) and the art of this job is planning your expenditure around what you've got so as not to borrow. I must admit I'm not a fan of partnerships, that's based on my experiences and those I've seen working. Those where there is a clearly defined role so one is a 'sleeping partner' that stumps up cash for a defined return seem to work the best. Others where the parties are responsible for different roles tend to get into trouble. The best business model for me is Dictator......well that's what they say I am.... Those in the know might want to study how the P4 Track Company was originally established..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2017 Somebody needs to provide that finance and not expect to see it back for a long time. Roy Or at all TBH. Only invest what you can afford to write off is always best. If it isn't, then don't. There must have been good reasons why the ranges being discussed got sold off by the original owners, and throughout this thread I keep thinking that the reality that a few folks are trying to inject is mostly being ignored and it's just basically wish-listing on a different level to normal. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2017 Or at all TBH. Only invest what you can afford to write off is always best. If it isn't, then don't. There must have been good reasons why the ranges being discussed got sold off by the original owners, and throughout this thread I keep thinking that the reality that a few folks are trying to inject is mostly being ignored and it's just basically wish-listing on a different level to normal. Izzy Retirement is the usual reason which is understandable, This doesn't mean a range isn't viable anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Ah, but don't let facts get in the way of plans based on assumption! I note that one of those leading discussion about grouping to save these toolings has stated in another thread that they can't afford a £50 deposit on a model. That did make my eyebrows raise. Roy Not quite what I said thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Or at all TBH. Only invest what you can afford to write off is always best. If it isn't, then don't. There must have been good reasons why the ranges being discussed got sold off by the original owners, and throughout this thread I keep thinking that the reality that a few folks are trying to inject is mostly being ignored and it's just basically wish-listing on a different level to normal. Izzy We know the reasons why they were sold off in the first place. The answer is earlier in this thread why Ian Kirk let his range go. Slaters wished to concentrate on other scales mainly their O gauge range. They went to other homes and ended up a few years later in the present owner's possession. Neither were sold directly to the present owner. None of it is wishlisting. Most of us just want model kits which were readily available a couple of years ago. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) i agree with the comments above, particularly re cash flow. From my perspective, the issue is the initial cost and what does that buy? Is the tens of thousands of investment for a full coopercraft style range or is it for a single item? I assume the former. Investors, particularly passive ones, need business plans and need exits. Hence the comments Edwardian and I have made elsewhere about the need for shareholder agreements that set out the basis for how these things work. Business plan. is critical. I personally think a large Big Bang range new to market with no track record will struggle to succeed. However, I'm sure a well designed, well thought through kit that is properly marketed could succeed. That can then be built on into a larger range over time. Returns? Any investor is thinking of this relative to other investments. Bank accounts, investment funds, stock market shares etc. Anyone who does invest has to be prepared to lose that investment. This is risky stuff. Edit: I should have added. Plus a few typos cleared up. Also a key element is the experience and track record of the people involved. If I was investing in someone's business, I'd want to see what they've done before, their experience in running such outfits and their technical skills. However, technical skill can be a drawback - it has to be grounded with some commerciality to ensure what is produced balances "perfection"and a commercial proposition. David Edited February 3, 2017 by Clearwater Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2017 So Coppercraft are going to be at the Nottingham show. Who is going to ask him "Can our mate Ian can have his money back for the coaches with his name on that you have not sent him?" 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 So Coppercraft are going to be at the Nottingham show. Who is going to ask him "Can our mate Ian can have his money back for the coaches with his name on that you have not sent him?" Need someone to video that too.....with sound , obviously! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 CooperCraft wagon kits, though only GWR, seem to be available on Ebay at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2017 Not quite what I said thank you. Oh dear - now you are playing words. In the now locked thread you asked for people to join you, financially and otherwise. How do you then think it looks when you state "Any provisional closing date as I am a tad short of funds for deposits atm"? If you want to create a business that has to be your sole focus otherwise it will not get off the ground in any manner that offers a long life. If you are financially well enough off to do this alone (and buy crowdfunded locos) why ask for financial support? Ok, I may be making assumptions, but where have you ever said "I don't need additional financial backing", or "I need financial backing for x and y"? Indeed, where have you given any indication that you do know the costs involved? All I and others can only see a person coming with a begging bowl in one hand and wanting to purchase locos in the other. Many of us have been trying to assist by offering advice and more, but anybody who doesn't say it will be easy or "well done" is a doom and gloom merchant apparently. Well, I am sorry, but the image you are sending is of somebody that is not serious at this. If you are, I apologise, but you need to be more upfront with what you are doing. You commented "there is a lot I know that I cannot share/ would prefer not to share at this point in time partially as I don't want to give people false hopes that I WILL rescue their favourite brand". Again do you want people to support you or not? If you do, shouting I WILL at us in not helping - there is the old business motivational poster of there being "no I in TEAM". Cringe-worthy I know, but the message is an important one. Listen to those of us that run businesses and give out a professional image for I do hope you succeed. If you want to find partners then you need to be more upfront, we have to be able to trust you and you need to show us that we should trust you. From a business perspective you do not start with trust and lose it, you have to earn it first. If I were to wish to partner with you, mismanagement of this business could do damage to me that also damages my current business - see where I am coming from? So, in closing, in the other thread you stated "Who said there was no premises? Who said there was no business knowledge? Who said there was no knowledge or operating / creation etc?". Perhaps it is time for you to show us clearly that there is? Roy 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2017 Retirement is the usual reason which is understandable, This doesn't mean a range isn't viable anymore. I agree that is the main reason but we also need to be very mindful of what those "in the know" have said regarding sales tailing off and 75% of sales being when new. If a new venture launches then significant start-up costs will be incurred, that is offset by a likely initial influx of orders (good for cash-flow) but where is the business plan that shows this being viable going forward afterwards? Is there a plan to recoup start-up costs or not? New tooling was discussed, how soon is it planned that this could be achieved as it may be that which makes retaining old tooling viable? I am working on some 3D modelling now. Would I partner to provide that to help with new tooling? Quite possibly, but I am a long way from being certain that it is the right thing to do. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 The thing I keep thinking, through all this, is thank goodness it is not important. At the end of days, as steam locos have been phased out, this method of constructing models will be phased out, and I believe it will evolve more towards virtual modelling - but not quite yet . Why spend time physically cutting and gluing, the result occupying real estate, when you will be spending that time developing holograms, which will look and behave in the same way? The other aspect, is that hopefully, for the more important things, there is stronger legislation in place to safeguard folk. For example, I think brain surgery is too expensive, so I'm buying some scalpels and a trepanning tool, and I'm going to be looking for a brain. This was meant to be a 'bit tongue in cheek', but my scalpel slipped... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I'm astonished by those who think that raising money is the difficult bit - that's easy by comparison with having the skills required to grow (or even maintain) the business. From easy to hard (in my opinion) An etched brass kit business where you have the phototools but nothing else - should be pretty simple to keep going forever - the etching is contracted out, and the phototools don't really wear, but could be damaged terminally - with a little investment you could probably get a 'backup' of the phototool made, but it might wipe out your potential profit (forever). An etched brass kit business where you have the phototools and the original 'on paper' artwork but nothing else - again pretty straightforward, and as long as your phototool and artwork are kept separately so a disastrous fire didn't take both out, should be possible to run at a low level for ever. An etched brass kit business where you have the phototools and the original 'on CAD' artwork but nothing else. What CAD? can you use CAD? if it came to re-making the tools could the etcher use version x.x files? can you continue to up version them with each CAD package upgrade - arguably this is more difficult than an 'on paper' artwork. Even if you can drive CAD well, your time would probably be better spent creating new kit artwork than playing around with some from a kit that has already sold 80% of its potential. Any of the above with a whitemetal casting I doubt most people want to do whitemetal casting these days so I'd assume you would contract it out like the etchings - where you have the moulds but no masters - OK until the mould wears out but then what? Do you have the skills to make a new master in a material that the caster can handle - either in traditional model making or 3D CAD/print? Any of the above with a whitemetal casting - where you have the moulds but and most masters (I'd be very surprised that ALL the masters were still available and good to use on a lot of ranges, these things do unfortunately go walkies. Is the potential sales from a remade mould going to actually cover its costs, and over how long? - would your investment be better spent on a new kit? Plastic kits where you buy the moulds - you could of course contract out production of these out as well, but doing that in the UK would be expensive, and abroad isn't without its problems as the big boys have discovered, but again - what happens when the moulds wear out? I could go on, but in my opinion, the significant take away is that in most cases the range you might but has already had 80% of its lifetime sales, and that its NEW (as in first 18months) products that are where the profit comes from - yes adding a bit more volume will help divide the fixed costs across more items, but only if it doesn't cost very much in initial investment, or in your time maintaining it. I don't know very much about injection moulded plastic kits, but feel on fairly safe ground talking about etch, resin and whitemetal, and I think most people would be surprised how few kits are sold in those mediums - often most sensibly counted in tens, the lucky ones who have chosen their prototypes well, and who continue to make it available for decades might run into hundreds. Jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I seem to recall reading a comment on a forum from the chap behind Genesis kits, he had achived truly astonishing sales of his FNA nuclear flask kit (IIRC something like 1500) and was rather disapointed that the little balast hopper he did (Herring? ) had struggled to sell the first 25 - unfortunately the later number is much more typical for sales of whitemetal kits than the former! jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 ...there is the old business motivational poster of there being "no I in TEAM". ... ...but there is a "ME" in it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 In many instances, you will not own the moulds, or the photo tooling. There are advantages, and disadvantages in ownership. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Roy Langridge, on 03 Feb 2017 - 17:47, said: ...there is the old business motivational poster of there being "no I in TEAM". ... ...but there is a "ME" in it. but more important, a mate, and tea. (and eat) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I liked the Kevin Pietersen parody quote saying "there's no i in team but four in "individual brilliance" 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Can we leave this thread to be about Coopercraft and keep all the expert comments about businesses elsewhere please. You had another thread and got it locked with petty arguing. Getting a bit pi$$ed off now that every time someone starts talking about alternatives, CAD, 3D printing, machines, other ranges, resin moulds, their own range, new tooling, cash flow, etc, None of it is relevant. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 4, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) I liked the Kevin Pietersen parody quote saying "there's no i in team but four in "individual brilliance" five :locomotive: :locomotive: Edited February 4, 2017 by Clive Mortimore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) I think it timely to temper both the over-optimism and the relative defeatism that's been building up in this thread. 1. Whatever happens in the way of a new producer who may or may not emerge, no new range of kits will ever reach the accumulated breadth of coverage that is currently languishing in the Coopercraft stable. 2. That being the case, it must be assumed that any demand for new kits of the same prototypes will be blunted by the existence of finished models still running on layouts and unbuilt examples remaining in peoples' stashes. Reviving production of the existing items, either under the current proprietor or following some sort of takeover if he can be persuaded to sell, seems to be the most practical option. 3. All-new kits need to tap completely untouched demand to cover their cost, and that means prototypes that haven't been "done" before. 4. However this affair eventually pans out, it has provided a demonstration of the vulnerability of this kind of product over the longer term. It is therefore wise to consider how we treat current items that we assume will be available whenever we want them. It's not true in any other field of business, so why should it be so in model railways? 5. Even active ranges develop gaps as moulds wear out - check old ads for Ratio and you soon realise there were quite a few kits that have gone. The precautions are pretty obvious: Buy what you want, or think you might want one day, while you can. Nothing lasts forever and you'll get better results from newly tooled kits than decades old ones anyway.. If you regularly change the eras and/or prototypes you model and don't/can't plan ahead like that; accept that you may have no alternative to trawling auction sites, swapmeets and exhibitions to obtain what you belatedly decide you need, quite possibly at "collectible" prices.. If you are a newcomer to the hobby, ditto. If you became a car enthusiast, you wouldn't expect to be able to go to your local Ford dealer and buy a new 105E Anglia, would you? John Edited February 4, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted February 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2017 Can we leave this thread to be about Coopercraft and keep all the expert comments about businesses elsewhere please. You had another thread and got it locked with petty arguing. Jason Given the current non-availability of Cooper Craft kits, are the two not inextricably linked? Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 4, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2017 ... and alternative technologies are highly relevant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 I confess, though I have not lost interest in any possible positive developments or news, my attention is wandering from the "debate". It was disappointing that the inability to reign in the Community's opinionated tendencies killed the topic about taking on/creating such a business. I hope that does not happen here, because, one way or another, there will eventually be some dénouement to report. In the meantime, I might take a bit of a breather .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted February 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2017 If I am reading things correctly the problem with Coopercraft is more about customer service. Unanswered e mails; inadequate website; hanging on to customers' money etc etc. I may be wrong but all of these service issues are completely independent of the quality or range of the kits, supply and technical problems etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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