Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Jol Wilkinson]

This was the original concept of the Slater's kits.Then suddenly an all plastic kit was not enough.

 

The challenge is the 'one size fits all' issue and in an attempt to pacify the superscsale modellers,the spec was raised with compensated bogies, rather than plastic etc had to be included. Although 'everyone' wants them now, it was not the case when they came out. The compensated bogies were only popular with those who insist compensation is a must, which put off the rest of use who have no interest, or like me, believe compensation is pointless on such a short wheelbase. One of mine is running on Mailcoach/Kirk American plastic bogies - they are fine and no one has noticed. The other reason for lack of sales is the duplication with the Blacksmith/Mallard diagrams. There are various tales around as to how this happened, but sales were not as high as the could have been and the idea of producing further diagrams using the same standard base underframe was not extended.

 

Mine were bought at well under half price as my local model shop tried to clear stocks, because 'everyone' did not want them.

 

The separate handrails will always be an area for disagreement. Not everyone wants separate door and grab handles. I do not see many Bachmann Mark 1 coaches with replacement parts.

 

Metal buffers - again I do not see plastic buffers hindering the sales of Kirk Gresley's when you can find them.

 

Transfers - include but which livery/era etc. Do you cover all increasing the costs etc.There was a time when POWsides produced bespoke decals for Parkside kits and that worked for may of us. You had to buy them separately, put the cost up somewhat, but it did not matter - convenience over cost!

 

In my opinion, produce an all plastic kit (metal wheels not an issue as parkside)  and if the modeller wants to replace parts with metal fittings, let them, but is it work risking putting off the, as Raliway Modeller puts it, the 'average' modeller? The concept has worked for Kirk and Ratio. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Again does 'one size fits all'?

 

Mike Wiltshire

Mike,

 

I very much agree, but it would be good if the designer made allowance for those who wish to modify the kit for the "common" variants e.g. fitting compensated bogies.

 

All the plastic or cast W/M bogies I have had as part of a kit needed considerable and sometimes difficult hacking to fit the etched bogies available, usually losing some of the detail  (such as the cross spring bearers) in the process. I'd leave out wheels as moulded plastic ones are invariably poor. Perhaps proprietary ones such as AGs or Markits (OO only) could be offered as an option although that creates complication and adds cost for the manufacturer.

 

I would also opt for separate handrails, door handles, etc. But it depends if the manufacturer wants to produce a "Premium" kit or one that is priced to suit the lower end of the market.

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

I'm an 'Old Ale' in winter and 'Ghost Ship' otherwise man myself. If you can find me in the 'Lord Nelson' in Southwold I'd be happy to oblige

 

I haven't been up to Southwold for a little while as we usually take any visitors we have there during the summer months to show a them a nice seaside Suffolk seaside town. Much preferred to the trendy and over hyped Aldeburgh, although that does have the Cross Keys. The Lord Nelson is good whatever the state of the weather.

 

I'll have to take a trip the MGB when the weather is warmer.

[Clearwater]

@khris

 

I suspect there is an assymetry: someone who wants to detail a kit, is not going to be put off purchasing a kit if it 'only' has plastic buffers whereas an "average" modeller may be put off if (s)he has to source their own. For the fraction of a penny that the bit of plastic for a buffer costs, it's a no brainer to include plastic buffers (and other details). No doubt MRJ, BRM, RM etc will all publish articles from accomplished craftsman turning an ordinary kit into something extraordinary. The point is to get the basic stuff back to market in a form that sells sufficiently to be economic to the producer.

 

David

[Dunsignalling]

@khris

 

I suspect there is an assymetry: someone who wants to detail a kit, is not going to be put off purchasing a kit if it 'only' has plastic buffers whereas an "average" modeller may be put off if (s)he has to source their own. For the fraction of a penny that the bit of plastic for a buffer costs, it's a no brainer to include plastic buffers (and other details). No doubt MRJ, BRM, RM etc will all publish articles from accomplished craftsman turning an ordinary kit into something extraordinary. The point is to get the basic stuff back to market in a form that sells sufficiently to be economic to the producer.

 

David

I agree.

 

IMHO, such a kit should include everything necessary to produce a functional model without glaring omissions.

 

It should be all-plastic (unless wheels / bearings are included) and if some purchasers want to replace/upgrade components or super-detail the model, that's up to them. 

 

John

[Edwardian]

I agree.

 

IMHO, such a kit should include everything necessary to produce a functional model without glaring omissions.

 

It should be all-plastic (unless wheels / bearings are included) and if some purchasers want to replace/upgrade components or super-detail the model, that's up to them. 

 

John

 

Crikey, a rare outbreak of consensus, but I think the above formula is the sensible choice.  It could result in an accessible, yet high quality, model that, nevertheless, allows for alterations and refinements for those want to adapt, further detail, change gauge, compensate the bogies etc.

[billbedford]

It my mind any kit designer worth his salt will make components out of the most appropriate material for each component. That would include, for instance, making bogies from a resilient plastic/resin, which avoids the need for compensation and the usual over width problems and making buffer heads from turned metal to give an appearance close to proptotypical.

[jwealleans]

I know someone who has ordered about 4 months ago and received nothing,

Don't give up... I placed an order last June, nothing for several months despite emails and phone calls then roughly mid-November a package arrived with my order in its entirety.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't think that necessarily has to be the case.

 

If one follows the example of Parkside Dundas wagon and npccs kits, they include almost everything needed to construct a vehicle that will prove acceptable (to most) as a "layout" model.

 

Things such as metal buffer heads and more complete/detailed brake-gear are easily substituted by those who consider them important and the real perfectionists just use the body mouldings in conjunction with etched underframe components.

 

Starting from the principles embodied in the Kirk products, future coach kits could match that standard by including prototype-specific, more comprehensive underframe parts in place of the very basic and generic mouldings provided in the past. Yes, an extra sprue or two will increase costs/prices but there should be no need involve outside suppliers.

 

John

I don't think Parkside make their own wheels. That said, they have a large enough range of kits to be able to afford an appropriate stock of wheelsets. Not so easy for a smaller/new business.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think the point of the "everything in the box " is two fold.

1) you build it as the designer intended

2) you are not reliant on then needing to call Joe at "Obscure parts for the discerning modeller" to ask for a vacuum cylinder but the problem is he isn't on email, and certainly not an Internet ready shop, and only answers the phone in the U.K. Between 4pm and 6pm. Unless the racing's on etc (I exaggerate to make the point). And even when you've found Joe, you also need to get hold of Fred for his shell vents, Bob who does the best in carriage mirrors etc. If you want the absolute best, then you'll do that. If you're "average", you'll probably not bother.

 

When I order, I like the convenience of web shopping and to get everything I need from one source. It's also more efficient from a postal perspective.

 

David

 

Once again, we might be better discussing this on the other thread (Safeguarding kit manufacturers).

 

I agree with the principle of what you are saying. The modeller wants a "one-stop shop" where he can get all that he needs to complete the kit. One advantage of bringing several producers under one umbrella is that one could provide such a facility without having to put everything in one box (so avoiding duplicate parts, double profit margins, etc).

[railroadbill]

I don't think Parkside make their own wheels. That said, they have a large enough range of kits to be able to afford an appropriate stock of wheelsets. Not so easy for a smaller/new business.

Just making a Parkside Dundas 16 ton coal wagon, the kit comes with Romford metal wheels and pinpoint brass bearings. No transfers. Also a Dapol ex-Airfix 16 ton wagon, (which has plastic wheels on metal axles but will have Hornby metal 3-hole wagon wheels fitted). But has transfers.

 

The 3 Coopercraft GWR vans I've been making have Alan Gibson wheels (and transfers).

 

I've no idea how long these have all been in "the stash"  though, so could be quite old issues.

 

They all have plastic buffers...  

[Dunsignalling]

I don't think Parkside make their own wheels. That said, they have a large enough range of kits to be able to afford an appropriate stock of wheelsets. Not so easy for a smaller/new business.

"Requires Wheels, bearings and couplers" should be acceptable, it's not universal practice to include them.

 

Bogies incorporating NEM pockets allow for adding easily available r-t-r couplers and those of us who don't use them have already worked out our own solutions. 

 

John   

Edited January 30, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Pint of Adnams]

Once again, we might be better discussing this on the other thread (Safeguarding kit manufacturers).

Is there a possibility that a Mod can extract post 543 onwards - referring to 'potential new kits/bits' - into a non-manufacturer-specific thread - please???

 

[i don't want to 'report' it as the posts are the opposite of objectionable content...]

[Fat Controller]

Just making a Parkside Dundas 16 ton coal wagon, the kit comes with Romford metal wheels and pinpoint brass bearings. No transfers. Also a Dapol ex-Airfix 16 ton wagon, (which has plastic wheels on metal axles but will have Hornby metal 3-hole wagon wheels fitted). But has transfers.

 

The 3 Coopercraft GWR vans I've been making have Alan Gibson wheels (and transfers).

 

I've no idea how long these have all been in "the stash"  though, so could be quite old issues.

 

They all have plastic buffers...  

Parkside used Romfords for many years (with the option of other types if modelling other gauges), but seem to have gone over to Gibson of late. If using Bachmann or Hornby wheels on kits, be ready to take a file to the brake-shoes, as both types are slightly larger in diameter to Romford or Gibson.

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

Bogies incorporating NEM pockets allow for adding easily available r-t-r couplers and those of us who don't use them have already worked out our own solutions. 

 

John   

I would have thought that in this day and age a form of close coupling cam device would be the standard in any new kit.

But of course this thread is about UK mainsteam models where any idea that might bear an extra cost is anathema.

Bernard.

[Horsetan]

... this thread is about UK mainsteam models where any idea that might bear an extra cost is anathema.

 

...or indeed any cost?

[Steamport Southport]

I would have thought that in this day and age a form of close coupling cam device would be the standard in any new kit.

But of course this thread is about UK mainsteam models where any idea that might bear an extra cost is anathema.

Bernard.

 

If it was a new kit then maybe that's something which could be designed in so that people could choose which type of couplings they want to use without needing to cut away parts of the model.

 

I'm thinking NEM pockets being able to be fitted to the bogie and space behind the buffer beam so that you can easily fit "scale" couplings or a system such as the Keen one. Other close coupling systems are available, just using them as an example.

 

 

Jason

[Paul Cram]

I can confirm that the bogies Jol refers to come with bearings whether they will include wheels I don't know however I do understand that the rest of a coach will follow and I expect with a high level of detail.

[J C Fenton]

Injection moulded coach kits are the only way that many of us will get prototypical variety in stock, and the best way to make kits that are reasonably priced and reasonably easy to construct, though I appreciate the investment necessary is significant.

 

We need more, not less (as present) in this field.

[jonhall]

Injection moulded coach kits are the only way that many of us will get prototypical variety in stock, and the best way to make kits that are reasonably priced and reasonably easy to construct, though I appreciate the investment necessary is significant.

 

We need more, not less (as present) in this field.

 

I think there are several things against this. Part of the problem is that we as punters have become more choosy, thirty or more years ago when some of these kits were designed, it was enough to be 'NER' for people to buy them, now 'we' want a diagram 321 in the condition it ran from late 1918 to early 1919 on the Much Snoring branch, and won't buy anything else because they don't want just a generic 'filler' so the volume of sales doesn't justify the investment.

 

The other big one is that the RTR boys have completely upped their game, a nicely built Kirk kit would compare favourably with a Margate era Gresley, but you have to be very skilled to beat a China era Gresley, at much the same price, possibly less. I've just sold a 4 car set of nicely built Kirk Maunsells with etched Roxey chassis for less than the cost of 2 equivalent Hornby Maunsells - about what 2 of the chassis kits would have cost on their own.

 

Jon

 

Jon

[cctransuk]

Injection moulded coach kits are the only way that many of us will get prototypical variety in stock, and the best way to make kits that are reasonably priced and reasonably easy to construct, though I appreciate the investment necessary is significant.

 

We need more, not less (as present) in this field.

 

I'm just waiting for the sharp intakes of breath when the price is announced - Airfix 'two bob' it won't be !!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Edwardian]

I'm just waiting for the sharp intakes of breath when the price is announced - Airfix 'two bob' it won't be !!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Well, provided it is under the £55 that an etched brass kit costs, or the £80 asked for a resin one, people should be able to breath quite normally, I would have thought.

 

Of course, they'll always be some low noises of negativity and gloom, whatever anyone does or proposes, but that is a fact of life on RMWeb.  The rest of us will take a deep breath and carry on.

 

Good luck to anyone prepared to invest in future products.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm just waiting for the sharp intakes of breath when the price is announced - Airfix 'two bob' it won't be !!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

As I recall, Kitmaster Mk1 were 6/6d.

[Edwardian]

I think there are several things against this. Part of the problem is that we as punters have become more choosy, thirty or more years ago when some of these kits were designed, it was enough to be 'NER' for people to buy them, now 'we' want a diagram 321 in the condition it ran from late 1918 to early 1919 on the Much Snoring branch, and won't buy anything else because they don't want just a generic 'filler' so the volume of sales doesn't justify the investment.

 

The other big one is that the RTR boys have completely upped their game, a nicely built Kirk kit would compare favourably with a Margate era Gresley, but you have to be very skilled to beat a China era Gresley, at much the same price, possibly less. I've just sold a 4 car set of nicely built Kirk Maunsells with etched Roxey chassis for less than the cost of 2 equivalent Hornby Maunsells - about what 2 of the chassis kits would have cost on their own.

 

Jon

 

Jon

 

But, of course, Jon Jon, that argument, even assuming it is correct, can only apply in the case of the relatively limited number of prototypes that exist RTR.  I assume that anyone contemplating producing plastic coach kits would pick prototypes not catered for by RTR or presently available as kits. RTR will always leave gaps, particularly in coaching stock.  

 

There are plenty of high-spec RTR locos for which appropriate coaching stock is limited or non-existent RTR.  The sort of plastic kit being discussed here should be accessible as a solution for many owners of RTR locos, as well as those who kit-build locos. 

 

There are all sorts of difficulties and obstacles in the face of the would-be plastic kit manufacturer, not least of which is raising a considerable amount of cash.  I'm afraid I don't see your concern as one of them.

[cctransuk]

 

Of course, they'll always be some low noises of negativity and gloom, whatever anyone does or proposes, but that is a fact of life on RMWeb.

 

No negativity and / or gloom - just a healthy dose of realism; (and perhaps just a touch of Ozzie cynicism, as I'm here in Melbourne at present)!

 

When I read 'reasonably priced', I interpret this as 'less that an etched kit or RTR' - let's hope that I'm mistaken.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

By-the-bye - can they do trams here !!! Nose-to-tail trams of every conceiveable type, including the classic pre-war ones. (That's one passing the hotel now).

Edited January 31, 2017 by cctransuk

[Dunsignalling]

As I recall, Kitmaster Mk1 were 6/6d.

Which was probably the bargain of the century! It has to be said, though, that Kitmaster went bust and, when Airfix took over, they never revived the coaches.

 

Adjusting for inflation, it comes to just under the current price of Ratio bogie coach kits. However, the tooling for those must have paid for itself many times over by now so that doesn't offer any real guide to where the commercially viable retail price of a brand new kit would come out nowadays, either.

 

My own guess (for models of bogie stock) is around the £40 to £55 mark depending on the complexity of the prototype. Probably not far off what Slater's originally wanted for their 4mm coach kits after updating the prices in the same way. 

 

John

Edited January 31, 2017 by Dunsignalling