Birmingham New Street in Steam days.

[alcazar]

I'm getting all nostalgic again, after reading blogs about Barrow Road and others, and wondered about loco workings into and out of New Street in steam days.

Can anyone shed any light?

[Rugd1022]

Hi Alcazar,

 

I was just about to type a simple reply saying 'yes they did work into Brum' but thought I should qualify it more and might as well dig out a few books and join you in a bit of nostalgia!

 

There are quite a few published photos of Coronations at New St but so far I haven't found any of the Lizzies there. Although the Coronations were mostly booked to the Anglo-Scottish services that ran via the Trent Valley, Sunday engineering works meant that many were diverted via the West Mids lines, and from what I've read and heard first hand the delays were quite severe.... I should imagine that with a Corrie up front the crews 'went for it' once clear of Brum and it's numerous speed restrictions on these occasions.

 

Anyway, to the books....

 

Bradford Barton's 'London Midland Steam In The Midlands' has plenty of Stanier, Fowler, Fairburn and BR Standards working in and around New St, such as Black 5s, Royal Scots, 4Fs, 2Ps, Jinties, various 2-6-2 and 2-6-4 Tanks, Ivatt Moguls of 464xx and 43xxx types, plus there are shots of Jubilees, Patriots, 8F's and Super D's on other West Mids lines. Alas there is no shot of a Lizzie or Corrie in New St itself.

 

Atlantic's 'Colour Of Steam - The LMS Pacifics' has a nice shot of 46248 'City Of Leeds' at New St working a Wolves-Euston express in 1961. The caption adds "prior to August 1959, LMS Pacifics were barred from regular service into New St due to the limited clearences in the tunnel between the station and Proof House Junction".

 

A good book you should get if you get the chance is W.D. Wharton's 'Steaming Into Birmingham & The West Midlands', which is an add on to the series of Northamptonshire books by Richard Coleman and Joe Rajczonek. This book is sheer quality from front to back, there are some very atmospheric shots of New St in the 50s and 60s, with a good coverage of LMS types and a few foreigners thrown in. There's good coverage too of the lines radiating out from the station....well worth the £20 asking price.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Nidge

 

 

[alcazar]

Excellent, thanks for that.

Anyone else?

[DavidBelcher]

Atlantic's 'Colour Of Steam - The LMS Pacifics' has a nice shot of 46248 'City Of Leeds' at New St working a Wolves-Euston express in 1961. The caption adds "prior to August 1959, LMS Pacifics were barred from regular service into New St due to the limited clearences in the tunnel between the station and Proof House Junction".

 

Indeed - quite ironic that engineering work [1] in connection with the electrification plan that would play a big part in ousting the Pacifics should end up broadening their route availability! There was at least one W'ton-London morning turn in the early 60s that was a regular Pacific job; I think it's J. B. Bucknall's "Heyday of Steam - West Midlands" (Ian Allan) that features a colour pic of "City of London" bringing the empty stock into High Level station ready for its run to Euston.

 

David

 

[1] The tunnel was opened out by adding new lining outside of the existing masonry and removing the latter by controlled explosion.

[Bernard Lamb]

I believe that Coronations got at least as far as Shrewsbury.

Presumably that was via Birmingham.

Bernard

[Andy Y]

I believe that Coronations got at least as far as Shrewsbury.

Presumably that was via Birmingham.

Bernard

 

Not necessarily, Shrewsbury turns were used for running in out of Crewe works and have certainly seen pics of those workings involving Coronations.

[alcazar]

Ah, more info. Now I had it on good authority from a Crewe local that running in turns were always up the Holyhead route, Chester? Do you know that Shrewsbury was also used as a fact, Ian?

[Guest jim s-w]

Hiya

 

Have you seen here? http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/

 

Seems brum was much the same in steam days as D&E as in anything goes.

 

A1

 

9F

 

10800

 

10200

 

princess coronation

 

Loads there to while away a half hour or so

 

HTH

 

Jim

[DavidBelcher]

Hiya

 

Have you seen here? http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/

 

Seems brum was much the same in steam days as D&E as in anything goes.

 

9F

 

 

And a B1 into the bargain in that photo too! Mind you, apparently New St. was a case of "anything goes" during the summer holiday season; at least one Clan is on camera as having made it at least as far south as Gloucester Eastgate, and unless sent via Camp Hill would no doubt have called in at BNS on the way. As for the A1s, Saint Mungo was also a visitor - but on the other side of town - in the 60s, passing through Snow Hill on a railtour (again, this photo is in the J.B. Bucknall album).

Due to WCML electrification work, all sorts of diversionary routes were used through Brum and the Black Country in the early to mid 60s. At least one Duchess was routed via the Princes End branch, with a hefty (either 15 or 25mph) speed restriction placed on it!

 

David

[alcazar]

Thanks to all those who have responded. This site is a mine of info, isn't it?

[Bernard Lamb]

Not necessarily, Shrewsbury turns were used for running in out of Crewe works and have certainly seen pics of those workings involving Coronations.

 

 

Just found a photo of City of Nottingham on a stopper from Crewe to Shrewsbury in the Irwell Press book on the Coronations which backs up your comment.

Bernard

[pH]

Not necessarily, Shrewsbury turns were used for running in out of Crewe works and have certainly seen pics of those workings involving Coronations.

Just found a photo of City of Nottingham on a stopper from Crewe to Shrewsbury in the Irwell Press book on the Coronations which backs up your comment.

Bernard

BRILL for August 2001 has an article which (the author admits) is partly an advert for the then newly-reprinted 'Book of the Coronation Pacifics', but which contains a lot of interesting information. Running-in turns for Duchesses coming out of Crewe Works included both trips along the North Wales coast and to Shrewsbury. The article also says that Duchesses could work to Shrewsbury in regular service. Sometimes, engines being taken off London trains from Scotland would be serviced, but not turned, at Crewe North. They would then work a train to Shrewsbury, turn on the triangle there and work back to Crewe, facing the correct way to work back north after being serviced again on Crewe North shed. There's three pictures of Duchesses at Shrewsbury, including one of two Camden engines (46229/54) ex-works together at Shrewsbury in 1958.

[buckdancer]

Interesting about the Princesses.

I can't recall ever seeing one at New St or even seeing a picture of one there.

 

The "semis" were reasonably regular including usually one on the lunchtime B'ham to Glasgow.

This had probably come in on a train from the north earlier.

I believe they were also used on the odd Euston train but I never actually saw one used in this way.

The WCML Sunday diversions normally meant that trains went along the old Grand Junction and went direct from Aston to Stetchford thus bypassing New St.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi All

 

Some more pics of the old New Street

 

http://www.photobydjnorton.com/NewStAtWork1.html

http://www.photobydjnorton.com/NewStAtWork2.html

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[edcayton]

Jogged my memory. In British Railways in Colour-A Period of Transition by Colin Boocock (Ian Allan 1988) there is a photo of 46209 Princess Beatrice(tbh too dirty to tell the colour) at New Street; unfortunately no further info. of date, working etc.

 

Ed

[Guest Phil]

I really can't let a thread on New St go by without a comment !

I wandered into my modest library of books and selected "steaming into Birmingham and the West Midlands"

 

April 1962 and displaced by diesels from WCML expresses some Coronations were reassigned to Euston-Wolverhampton jobs apparently. 46246 "City of Manchester" was captured in April 1962 by Ray Reed working a Wolves-Euston service.

 

There are two other interesting shots in the same section of the book - these representing the "prototype for everything" department .

February 1958 in horrendous weather on an up Euston service were Black five 45071 piloting 70033 "Charles Dickens".

 

Saturday 8th August 1964 and A1 Pacific 60114 "WP Allen" was observed in New St working back to the Eastern Region.

[Guest jim s-w]

Link to the A1 pic on post 8 Phil

 

HTH

 

Jim

[SEVERN VALLEY]

One of my earliest memories was seeing red liveried princess Arthur Of Connaught bursting out of the London tunnel - happy days - this is an ideal thread on a cold winter's day.

 

Regards, John.

[Guest Phil]

Link to the A1 pic on post 8 Phil

 

HTH

 

Jim

 

Oops - not providng value to the thread !!!

[TheSignalEngineer]

From my own pictures I have at least 46209, 46220, 46233, 46241 & 46255 at New St. I also remember seeing 46221 & 46243, there were more besides but I don't have any logs to hand, and travelled behind 46240 from New St to Euston calling at Stechford and running via Northampton, the booked route for most Birmingham trains in about 1961-65 period. For a time the morning train from Euston ran on to Wolverhampton via the Soho Road line and calling at Bescot. Later on that train terminated at Birmingham, and Coronations may have taken the ECS to Kings Norton via the West Suburban line, returning late in the afternoon. The train had to run via the Midland side at New St and gauging for it was done using 46227 IIRC  46228.

[buckdancer]

From my own pictures I have at least 46209, 46220, 46233, 46241 & 46255 at New St. I also remember seeing 46221 & 46243, there were more besides but I don't have any logs to hand, and travelled behind 46240 from New St to Euston calling at Stechford and running via Northampton, the booked route for most Birmingham trains in about 1961-65 period. For a time the morning train from Euston ran on to Wolverhampton via the Soho Road line and calling at Bescot. Later on that train terminated at Birmingham, and Coronations regularly took the ECS to Kings Norton via the West Suburban line, returning late in the afternoon. The train had to run via the Midland side at New St and gauging for it was done using 46227 IIRC.

The ECS arrangements around Birmingham would be worth a book in their own right (that's if anyone has a handle on them all!).

I can only talk about seeing the ECS which came through Bescot and onto the Carriage sidings at Pleck, just before Walsall station.

There were regular Jubilees, Royal Scots and particularly Britannias which came in from New St with a train then went back to Aston light engine.

Then or course there would be the balancing working of a loco facing the right way to bring a train of freshly cleaned stock to New Street.

I think these locos did their own shunting too as I can't recall a pilot engine being based at the Carriage sidings.

So while the people of Walsall complained for many years of having no mainline services, many were pulling up a few hundred yards from their station right under their noses!

Never saw a Princess or Princess Coronation on one of these ECS trains though!

[TheSignalEngineer]

I have a 1964 Arrivals and Departures book for New St Station giving all platforming and calling stations of departing trains. Lots of wierd and wonderful, not only the ECS, but the dated trains.

There was Birmingham to Glasgow St Enoch via the S&C and GSW, Nottingham to Bournemouth W via Bath, Westbury and Southampton, Kings Norton to Scarborough, Walsall to Kingswear (in via Sutton Park), Walsall to Eastbourne, to name but a few. No wonder we got a lot of foreign engines at that time when you read the trains and routes worked.

[bike2steam]

The ECS arrangements around Birmingham would be worth a book in their own right (that's if anyone has a handle on them all!).

I can only talk about seeing the ECS which came through Bescot and onto the Carriage sidings at Pleck, just before Walsall station.

There were regular Jubilees, Royal Scots and particularly Britannias which came in from New St with a train then went back to Aston light engine.

Then or course there would be the balancing working of a loco facing the right way to bring a train of freshly cleaned stock to New Street.

I think these locos did their own shunting too as I can't recall a pilot engine being based at the Carriage sidings.

So while the people of Walsall complained for many years of having no mainline services, many were pulling up a few hundred yards from their station right under their noses!

Never saw a Princess or Princess Coronation on one of these ECS trains though!

 

Yep, I'd go along with that, many happy memories when staying with my aunty who lived in Pleck.

From my own observations the most regular locos on those ECS workings were Jubilee 'Howard Of Effingham', and Brit 'William Shakespeare'.

The use of Stanier pacifics on Wolv to Euston increased for a couple of years following the introduction of the EE type 4's, as they were initially used mainly on the Trent Valley route.

[trisonic]

Funny this thread should crop up.

I used the Royal Scot service from Euston to Glasgow a lot in the late fifties early sixties as a kid, often by myself. Did this train bypass Birmingham i.e. Rugby to Crewe? I was looking on Wiki and it suggested that the first stop was Carlisle but I seem to remember stopping at Crewe everytime.

 

Is my memory at fault?

 

Best, Pete.

[bike2steam]

Most traffic from London to places north of Crewe (where most trains stopped), on the exLNWR, went via the Trent Valley route unless there were engineering diversions, as at most times the Coventry to Wolverhampton section was used to full capacity.