Jazz 7mm Workbench

[M51625]

Jazz,

 

You've made a very good job of what i knew was a difficult kit, and i have memories of john Berry stating just as is mentioned above, taking the line its the builder and not the kit thats at fault was the wrong attitude, certainly didnt make for a long living brand of kits...

 

I too am very interested in what you are to be building next, i'm still fighting with an Ace products V1, and cant wait to move on to something 'better' but i'm undecided as to what so this could be interesting.

 

Keep them coming along, do you actually have a favourite manufacturer of kits, not because of the prototypes available but because of the kit design, instructions, quality of castings, aftersales sevice etc?

[jazz]

Do I have a favourite manufacturer. Well, not exactly a particular single favourite. (I do have some that I avoid but sometimes do build their product for Goeff)

 

The ones I do like, in no particular order and bearing in mind not all kits from a given manufacturer are equal.

 

Are: Gladiator, David Andrews, Connoisseur,

Agenoria, Scorpio (this manufacturer as well designed kits but the castings can be very hit & miss). JLTRT, Martin Finney, Roxey mouldings. All the aformentioned I am happy when given one to build.

[jazz]

Here go with the 28xx build. As usual, I'm starting with the tender. This is no different that all the Scorpio tender kits, so should be a straight forward build.

 

There is a choice of three frames in the kit and for a first for me I'm using the deep frames as that is on the particular protype loco Geoff wants.

 

The first thing I notice is it's impossible to fold on the etched fold lines until the necessary etched lines have been opened out. Easily done with a Stanley knife as the first image shows. (The tabs have to remain upright when the rest is folded at 90 degrees it is these tabs that need to be released with the Stanley knife).

 

 

 

After doing all the folds all fitted perfectly in the slots. I would not like to do some of the folds without using the folding bars. But it is possible if you do not own any, just a bit difficult.

 

The steps are added to the sold bars at this stage. (It's the sole bar that are best done in the folding bars)

 

 

 

Now for the folding over of the tabs when fitting the frames to the running plate. I find it easiest to sit it on plat bar and tap them over with a small hammer. (take care not to damage the cross bars at the base of the axle box supports.

 

 

The first stage od the build is now complete. All fitted well with the exception of the front step brackets. When the brackets are fitted behind the step plate, the small fold back tab is best removed or the steps will not sit correctly against the frames.

 

You will have noticed the chassis in the background. This was so straight forward no comments are needed. The centre axle hole is already oval and just needed the piano wire soldered there for the preferred springing. (The hole being oval is a really nice touch as far as I'.m concerned.)

 

Edited December 16, 2012 by jazz

[Miss Prism]

I can't recall seeing tender frames of that shape behind a 28xx, Ken.

[buffalo]

I can't recall seeing tender frames of that shape behind a 28xx, Ken.

I thought they looked a bit odd, too, but see the official drawing fig 193 in Russell vol 2. It is apparently the official Diagram I for 2856-83.

 

Nick

[Miss Prism]

Aha! Haven't got Russell vol 2 to hand. Is that with a longitudinal or transverse vacuum cylinder? (And didn't those tenders migrate to Moguls or something like that?)

[buffalo]

Looks like a transverse one to me, but I'll have to pass on the rest

 

No doubt Ken will be able to tell us more.

 

Nick

Edited December 16, 2012 by buffalo

[3 link]

I agree it's a good rendition of the official drawing and the vacuum cylinder is transverse, looking good so far Ken and I'm with you with regards the centre axle hole already oval.

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.

[jazz]

Ha Ha. I thought this would raise some comments. I was looking at this loco.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2012 by jazz

[jazz]

Hi. A change of plan is afoot for the 28xx. Geoff & I had a conflab yesterday regarding the tender. Yes, it's correct for 3850. BUT Geoff requires 3803 and as such that is now the wrong tender. The actual tender 3803 is carring now in preservation is a one off having been a much altered one.

so no kits are available for that one.

 

So after much research by Geoff he has decided to go with the closest one available and that comes from Warren Shephards stable. so the tender I have almost completed will go behind another suitable loco later. Now it's on the loco itself until the tender arrives.

 

This is what we are now looking at building.

 

[jazz]

Well now, after getting the tender issue resolved I am now awaiting the delivery of the tender kit for 3803. So it's onwards with the locomotive build.

 

This is new kit introduced in June this year. So far I'm very impressed with it.

 

Unlike in majority of my builds, I'm following the instructions. This is due to the design of the build being a bit off the normal chassis design.

 

Making a start with the chassis, this is what you are looking at.

 

After a very straight forward start on the basis chassis, absolutely no problems arose. It all went exactly as the instruction said. So the first difficulty for the builder is the bending of the cylinder wrappers. This can be done fairly easily using suitable steel rods and your fingers. BUT if you have them, this is by far the quickest and best way. You should aim the wrapper to conform snugly to the cylinder fronts/rears and stay in place without solder. Then very carefully solder all round the outer edges of the wrapper. DO NOT use too much solder as you do not want it to run onto the rivet detail.

 

This is my bending tool from Metal Smith.

 

 

This is the cylinder unit made up. You have the choice of sodering the unit now to the chassis, or as I am doing, leaving it removable.

 

Todays work completed. It will be seen that you have four compensation plates. You reall have to be very careful solding the turned pivot pins in place. I used tissue paper between the plate and the chassis. If any tissue paper was stuck behind the plate I pushed it ou with stiff paper. It is worth noting NOT to squeese the plate against the frames as this would make free movement impossible..

Edited December 18, 2012 by jazz

[ozzyo]

Hello Ken,

 

interesting idea for the loco frames with the four outside compensation beams. But if you want all eight axle box's sprung, do you have to fit the four compensation beams to the frames on the out side and sweat them on? Then cut out the horn guide slots cut outs through both sets (compensation beams and inner frames).

 

How do the compensation beams look with the drivers in place? It also doesn't look like there is any provision for plunger pick-ups to be fitted to them.

 

The idea of fitting the brake shoes to the compensation beam is a good one, but when you fit all the pull rod this could hinder the movement of the compensation beams.

 

Cylinders, nice looking job on the wrappers. Teaching granny now, I like to fit the front and rear covers including the slide bars and the drain taps, before fitting the wrappers. Then zap the wrappers on last.

 

OzzyO.

PS. sorry for all the questions.

[jazz]

Paul. I would agree the beams would have to be sweated on then sort out the axle holes. Again, the brake rods are going to be a n issue I am currently thinking about. I am about to start the installation of the brake gear having spent the day making up the coupling & connecting rods plus assembling and fitting the inside valve gear.

 

I have, in this instance, fitted the wrappers first with high melt solder and will solder the slide bar units on with soft solder as the will have multi point fixings. The slide bar units are high melt solder too.

[ozzyo]

Hello Ken,

 

I hoped that you would take my questions the right way and I think that you have.

 

So it looks like the kit has not been designed with springing built into it?

 

I've been thinking about the brake rods. Could you fit some short sections of square section of brass so that one length of the pull rods could slide inside it to help when the compensation moves the brake rods? Hiding the extra sections could be a bit of a problem though. I'm thinking that this brake gear will have two rods per cross beam?

 

OzzyO.

[Mike Boucher]

 

Todays work completed. It will be seen that you have four compensation plates. You reall have to be very careful solding the turned pivot pins in place. I used tissue paper between the plate and the chassis. If any tissue paper was stuck behind the plate I pushed it ou with stiff paper. It is worth noting NOT to squeese the plate against the frames as this would make free movement impossible..

 

I'm confused by this photo. Why are there two pins on each compensating plate? (I see one in the middle, and one at the front end. How do these compensating plates pivot if they're fixed in 2 places?

[buffalo]

I'm confused by this photo. Why are there two pins on each compensating plate? (I see one in the middle, and one at the front end. How do these compensating plates pivot if they're fixed in 2 places?

Isn't one for a brake hanger? I took the large brass rods to be the pivots and the thin sticking out ones to be for the brakes.

 

Nick

[jazz]

The two 'pins' sticking out are the brake pivots (two to each 'beam'). they are not connected to the main frames. There is a turned brass 'pin' in the centre of each beam, just below the brake pivot, to allow the beams to rock.

 

Paul, I'm thinking along similar lines (excuse the pun), the brake tie rods ar the usual meaty GWR style with two pods per tie. I will drill a deep holes and insert the pull rods in a loose fit that will allow movement

 

As noted, there is no provision for pickups, the wheels just cover the beams and with the valve gear and motor, that leaves' not a lot room'.

 

My simple solution is six wheel pickup from the tender via a plug in connection.

Edited December 19, 2012 by jazz

[jazz]

Ok, just time to post the photos before settling down to some TV.

 

The valve gear is installed. Not a comrehensive as in othe offering from this stable but just enough to fill between the frame. Very careful soldering is the order of the day here. The castings will melt very quickly. I use the 25w Antex for this to get in out out very quick with the solder.

 

 

 

This shows the arrangement a little better, I think.

 

 

 

From underneath, the springs soldered in place. Some small mods are required but the instructions tell you what they are. I fitted the springs after installing the valve gear and elected to solder parts of the valve gear to the springs for added strenght. They would be very vunerable with the axle bouncing around.

You have to make sure the axle is dead centre in the valve gear holes as ther is only just enough room for the axle to float.

 

Also the brake operating crank is nowhere near long enough to fit between the support brakets. My solution was brass tube inserted in the support brackets and slipped over the small pins on the actual casting. You can just make out the brass tube.

 

 

Tomorrow I tackle the brakes. That will be a bit of fun.

Edited December 20, 2012 by jazz

[Mike Boucher]

The two 'pins' sticking out are the brake pivots (two to each 'beam'). they are not connected to the main frames. There is a turned brass 'pin' in the centre of each beam, just below the brake pivot, to allow the beams to rock.

 

Ah. Thanks for that explanation. I was confused because there appear to be holes directly behind those brake hanger pins, so I assumed the pins went thru and into those holes.

 

I'm really liking the looks of that frame with all the whitemetal details added, especially the hornblock castings, even though there are no axleboxes...

[jazz]

Hi Mike. The holes in the frames are there because it is intended to pass the 'pins' through them for a short distance. Personally, I could not see the need to do that and risk them restricting the movement. So I filed the pins flush with the beams after making sure solder had run through to the front on the beams.

[N15class]

Well now, after getting the tender issue resolved I am now awaiting the delivery of the tender kit for 3803. So it's onwards with the locomotive build.

 

This is new kit introduced in June this year. So far I'm very impressed with it.

 

Unlike in majority of my builds, I'm following the instructions. This is due to the design of the build being a bit off the normal chassis design.

 

Making a start with the chassis, this is what you are looking at.

 

After a very straight forward start on the basis chassis, absolutely no problems arose. It all went exactly as the instruction said. So the first difficulty for the builder is the bending of the cylinder wrappers. This can be done fairly easily using suitable steel rods and your fingers. BUT if you have them, this is by far the quickest and best way. You should aim the wrapper to conform snugly to the cylinder fronts/rears and stay in place without solder. Then very carefully solder all round the outer edges of the wrapper. DO NOT use too much solder as you do not want it to run onto the rivet detail.

 

This is my bending tool from Metal Smith.

 

 

This is the cylinder unit made up. You have the choice of sodering the unit now to the chassis, or as I am doing, leaving it removable.

 

Todays work completed. It will be seen that you have four compensation plates. You reall have to be very careful solding the turned pivot pins in place. I used tissue paper between the plate and the chassis. If any tissue paper was stuck behind the plate I pushed it ou with stiff paper. It is worth noting NOT to squeese the plate against the frames as this would make free movement impossible..

I like your Metelsmiths forming tool. Was it a special for you as I cant see it on their website.

I am enjoying this build. The chassis is an interesting concept. I will be interested to see how it performs.

[jazz]

Hi Peter. The forming tool is under 'Drilling Tool'. They then sell the forming attachments for the 12" model. You need Drilling Table DT12 plus

Radius Forming Attachments RFA12. The forming attachments are a set of seven various diameter bars and various length bolts.

 

 

Note. The very small radius bars naturally, will tend to bend under pressure. I keep the holding clamps very close to the work and that solved the problem. (Apologies that is stating the obvious)

Edited December 20, 2012 by jazz

[N15class]

Hi Peter. The forming tool is under 'Drilling Tool'. They then sell the forming attachments for the 12" model. You need Drilling Table DT12 plus

Radious Forming Attachments RFA12. The forming attachments are a set of seven various diameter bars and various length bolts.

 

 

Note. The very small radious bars naturally, will tend to bend under pressure. I keep the holding clamps very close to the work and that solved the problem. (Apologies that is stating the obvious)

Thanks Ken

It looks more use to me than the bend and fold thingy.

[jazz]

Right, spent the best part of this moring preping the brakes. The pivoted areas (shown othe photo) are (a) between the brake cylinder and tie bar. The cast white metal adjusting rods were very flimsey, so they were dicarded and brass rod and tube useed to make new ones. The end at the tie bar was left to float between the forks. Very sturdy and works well.

 

The second area, ( B) both ends are left to float in the tie bars. Again works very well. All other rods enda were soldered to the tie bars.

 

Edited December 20, 2012 by jazz

[3 link]

Hi Ken,

 

To be honest I am not really sold on this " outside compensation beams " idea, and also surely the beams will restrict the amount of side play and being a 2-8-0 most of us need as much side play as we can get. It's a pity they did not offer the option of some thin overlays with rivet detail so you had the choice of fitting hornblocks and inside beams like the Finney kits, this is only my opinion. Apart from that it looks quite a good kit so far.

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.