IoW light rail conversion proposed

[Joseph_Pestell]

Various tube projects coming down the line. I think 2023 is reckoned to be the next date for Piccadilly replacement.

 

I agree with your basic idea but I don't think tube stock is the right answer. There is plenty of "off-the-peg" European narrow-gauge stock which would do the job very well.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Various tube projects coming down the line. I think 2023 is reckoned to be the next date for Piccadilly replacement.

 

I agree with your basic idea but I don't think tube stock is the right answer. There is plenty of "off-the-peg" European narrow-gauge stock which would do the job very well.

 

I complete agree, but then I am very biased towards Swiss meter gauge too. I think standard gauge bogies would fit under some of the Stock without too much work if re-gauging the island line is not an option, but that sounds a bit too much like common sense so i'll believe it when I see it!

[PhilJ W]

Various tube projects coming down the line. I think 2023 is reckoned to be the next date for Piccadilly replacement.

 

I agree with your basic idea but I don't think tube stock is the right answer. There is plenty of "off-the-peg" European narrow-gauge stock which would do the job very well.

The same could be applied to light rail stock. Also if such stock was leased it could save a lot of the costs of replacement stock.

[009 micro modeller]

If using more tube stock why not just use the LU 4 rail system on Island line? I thought the reason for conversion originally was to allow them to be tested on the mainland first.

[Titan]

If using more tube stock why not just use the LU 4 rail system on Island line? I thought the reason for conversion originally was to allow them to be tested on the mainland first.

 

I suspect that with the small number of trains required, it is cheaper to convert them to third rail rather than lay a fourth rail over the whole length of the line.

[Mark Saunders]

If using more tube stock why not just use the LU 4 rail system on Island line? I thought the reason for conversion originally was to allow them to be tested on the mainland first.

 

There is very little difference between 3rd and 4th rail as the main one is the return current is via the running rail and this requires the rail joints to be bonded whereas the 4th rail does this on the LT lines!

 

Mark Saunders

[lmsforever]

From the comments previously made the first thing to do is the track and signalling and then look at suitable rolling stock but will the TOC be willing to spend the money?

[Gwiwer]

There is very little difference between 3rd and 4th rail as the main one is the return current is via the running rail and this requires the rail joints to be bonded whereas the 4th rail does this on the LT lines!

 

Mark Saunders

 

Indeed it is possible to convert 4th rail stock to run on the SR 3rd rail system fairly readily as has happened when Met electric No.12 "Sarah Siddons" has been used on railtours.

 

The cost to equip the Island Line with 4th rail and rewire the power supply system accordingly will far outstrip that to convert existing tube stock to 3rd rail.  The conversion is also once and for all whereas installing a fourth current-return rail will require than to be renewed periodically as well.

[Titan]

I find it a bit sad the situation the IoW railway is in. Every part of it is knackered. Track, rolling stock, power supply etc. All of it needs replacement, although perhaps the track needs just some heavy maintenance.  Revenue covers about 1/4 of operating cost. It really needs a complete route modernisation, or it will close simply when it has all fallen to bits and the remaining trains are unserviceable. 

[Mike Storey]

I find it a bit sad the situation the IoW railway is in. Every part of it is knackered. Track, rolling stock, power supply etc. All of it needs replacement, although perhaps the track needs just some heavy maintenance.  Revenue covers about 1/4 of operating cost. It really needs a complete route modernisation, or it will close simply when it has all fallen to bits and the remaining trains are unserviceable. 

 

That's what everyone was saying in 1966, yet it is still with us (and a bit more with the Havenstreet railway). The climate against railway closures is a lot stronger now than it was then, and the government has not (yet) even tried to suggest closure is an option. Road improvements are just as unaffordable and anyway almost impossible without completely damaging the Island in a way that would be unacceptable to most people.

 

So chins up. A way will be found. Just not perhaps the one we would each like? (List opens at this point for the ones we would each like.......) 

[009 micro modeller]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DULiZFNX0AAxlcS.jpg

 

Can I suggest a replica of this as my favoured solution? It is a Kerr Stuart Tattoo, standard rail gauge, tube loading gauge, used while constructing the City & South London Railway. Central London Railway had a couple of tube sized Hunslets for the same purpose.

 

Edit: Could be a Brazil actually.

Edited May 31, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[Mike Storey]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DULiZFNX0AAxlcS.jpg

 

Can I suggest a replica of this as my favoured solution? It is a Kerr Stuart Tattoo, standard rail gauge, tube loading gauge, used while constructing the City & South London Railway. Central London Railway had a couple of tube sized Hunslets for the same purpose.

 

Edit: Could be a Brazil actually.

 

Now you're talking. It's a Brazil, but no matter. The Corris have had Alan Keef build a new Tattoo about ten years ago, and they are now building a new Brazil " Falcon" for the Corris (donations needed - go on) because the Tallyllyn won't give back the ones they stole (Mod - paid a fair price for at the time of closure).

 

I am sure, for a reasonable discount, Alan Keef Ltd would build a follow-on batch. The Corris can supply newly built carriages (so long as you are not in too much of a hurry) but they only open on one side. They will certainly fit through the tunnel. No-one in North-West Wales has complained about pollution, and they won't let Marks & Spencer anywhere near them either.

 

So, they just need to reduce the IOW gauge to 2ft3ins, close all the Down platforms, and keep going for a few more years, and it's sorted!

Edited May 31, 2018 by Mike Storey

[mdvle]

I don't know much about the island line, but this thread is an interesting read and good for a bit of 'what if' speculation. I may have missed the point somewhere, but all the replacement stock talk is on finding something 2nd hand as a replacement. A stand alone brand new build would obviously be a very expensive proposition to replace the stock, but are any of the tube lines are due to receive brand new stock?

 

2 problems.

 

One the next appropriate tube stock is 5 years away - and maybe further given rumors that TfL may not have the money for the next round of replacements though 5 years is a long time particularly in politics.

 

Related to one, the earliest new stock would arrive is 5 years and indications are that the existing Island Line stock won't last that long.  Thus something needs to be done near term and given the likely costs involved the government isn't going to want to purchase new stock say 3 years after funding a replacement.

[009 micro modeller]

Weren't there also problems with the more high tech direction of tube stock development for LU which would make new stock less suited to Island line? I seem to remember this being mentioned before. On a different note, is any of the current stock likely to be preserved as was done with some of the Standard stock?

[Zomboid]

Doesn't the LT museum have a set of 38 stock? If so, they might want a unit as spares for it, but I can't see the 483s surviving otherwise - who'd want them? Being such oddities they're not useful for most heritage lines, and the only places I can think of that they'd fit would be the IOWSR or Epping & Ongar, though neither presently have any suitable solution AFAIK for making them move.

[Titan]

.The climate against railway closures is a lot stronger now than it was then, and the government has not (yet) even tried to suggest closure is an option. Road improvements are just as unaffordable and anyway almost impossible without completely damaging the Island in a way that would be unacceptable to most people.

 

 

 

Closure in this scenario would not be a political decision, AIUI the IoW railway is already one unit short of what is required for the full timetabled service. When the last one breaks down and can't be repaired, what will happen? Rail replacement Bus service until further notice and pretend the railway is still open?  I guess the reason why they can't wait for LU stock to become available is that they think this scenario may happen before then...

[Wickham Green]

.......... though neither presently have any suitable solution AFAIK for making them move.

Unfortunately that's the problem with all currently preserved electric stock and everything that anyone might want to preserve in the foreseeable future ..... a dedicated preserved electric railway would be the ideal solution but would be damned expensive and, no doubt, frowned upon by Elf 'n' Saffy .................. otherwise, the only option would be to take out a few seat ( or use van space where available ) and fit a compact diesel genny or modern battery pack : possibly less damned expensive !

[PhilJ W]

I wonder if TfL have any battery locomotives going spare?

[rodent279]

There is very little difference between 3rd and 4th rail as the main one is the return current is via the running rail and this requires the rail joints to be bonded whereas the 4th rail does this on the LT lines!

 

Mark Saunders

Would fitting a 4th rail ease or eliminate secondary corrosion issues on the pier?

[Zomboid]

Yes, if the 4th rail sits on pots and is the entirety of the return circuit, it will eliminate any current from the metallic structure of the pier, so electrolytic corrosion will not be an issue.

[rodent279]

Ta.

 

Is it secondary corrosion, or electrolytic, or Galvanic corrosion? Can't remember the correct terminology from college days!

[rodent279]

A4s and pendolinos aren't that dissimilar in shape, so the Virgin colours suit them pretty well IMO.

 

But then I also quite like the VoR locos in blue (though the carriages also being all over blue didn't make sure a particularly pleasing whole train). A blue 2MT could probably look quite good if it were applied with a bit of thought. Fundamentally it's not that really different from BR green.

Totally OT, and not IoW I know, but another one that would suit a cast BR lion & wheel crest like the AC electrics would be a blue A4. Electric blue A4 anyone? :-)

[lmsforever]

TFL evidently have a big problem coming up soon with cash flow as the grant they receive from government is being withdrawn so cash will be a problem and new stock will be hard to access .Bus ridership is declining but rail is rising rapidly.A shortage of new stock will probably occur meaning current units will have to keep running for longer so the Island Line could be in serious trouble.All this shows how the original plans were done on the cheap with no thought for the future probably they thought it would all be gone in ten years.It is typical of how the UK operates do it cheap someone else will sort out the problem in the future but we wont be around to take the blame.The Island Line must be sorted as traffic levels along its route are growing wether its heavy or light rail lets hope someone gets off their bum and does something soon.

[Christopher125]

A stand alone brand new build would obviously be a very expensive proposition to replace the stock, but are any of the tube lines are due to receive brand new stock? If so, could island line not just tack their stock order onto the end of that production run for up to date units? Yes it would be a little more expensive than 2nd hand still but not as bad as a standalone bespoke order, and spares for maintenance/faults would also be easier to source if shared with a much larger fleet.

The next LU design is likely to be an articulated, walkthrough design - an Island Line version would be so different as to be essentially bespoke, it's hard to see that being justified if there's anything secondhand and easier/simpler/cheaper to maintain with the limited facilities available at Ryde.

 

Closure in this scenario would not be a political decision, AIUI the IoW railway is already one unit short of what is required for the full timetabled service.

 

I've not heard of a shortage, they've only been running two units in recent years so a third spare should be sufficient. With 006 emerging from a lengthy overhaul last year, and 007 having taken her place (see below), I don't see any immediate cause for concern.

 

007 Ryde St Johns Road DSCF8949 by d33206hg, on Flickr

Edited June 1, 2018 by Christopher125

[009 micro modeller]

I wonder if TfL have any battery locomotives going spare?

This is sort of what I had in mind earlier when I suggested retaining the 483s as hauled stock and using a loco with them (do TfL still have some diesel tube locos or have they been converted to electric?). Re the idea of 'we won't bother because it'll close in 10 years anyway' - in a 'bookazine' I got a few years ago called Britain's Weirdest Railways there is an article about the use of tube stock on Island line. While there are a couple of errors in other parts of the book the IoW bit intriguingly mentions a possible plan by BR in the 1960s to close everything, except for the pier shuttle which would feed the island's bus network. It was suggested that this was simply a worst case scenario so that they could be seen to give concessions when the whole of the current line remained open, but perhaps it was also an attempt to avoid the tunnel issues (since presumably conventional if lightweight stock could run on the pier).