Castle Aching

[Jamie Douglas]

Perhaps someone ordered a full size K Class but it shrank in the Wash.

 

Best wishes

Jamie

[mullie]

Indeed, it proved irresistible, in fact

 

 

 

Yes, well done, but there is a 'but'.

 

This was said to be a GoNSR 4-4-0, and, indeed, it resembles such.

 

It appears to resemble the 6 K Class locos of 1866.  As this is D47/2 in LNER-speak, I was able to look them up in the relevant RCTS volume. 

 

So, I can see that this model represents the class prior to the rebuilds of 1889-1891, because the open top brass safety valve cover is in its original position on the firebox.

 

The prototype had 5'6 1/2" drivers and, so, was that bracket of useful mixed traffic or intermediate 4-coupled tender engines that were once common. Off the top of my head I think of the LSWR 4-4-0 Steamrollers and the GER 2-4-0 T26.  The Great Western had many such.  

 

The model is scratch-built and would benefit from detailing generally, and this would be necessary if I wished better to reflect the prototype.  The smoke-box door, for example, should have the continuous 'U' ring door brackets and a handrail, and there are holes for the Roscoe lubricators, but these are not fitted, the brass dome lacks its Salter valves and the tender lacks much detail.

 

But - I said there would be a 'but' - this cannot be a GNoSR K Class clone on the West Norfolk, because it's in fact HO or 1/87 scale!

 

In 4mm scale, the coupled wheels would be 22mm in diameter. As the description stated, the model has 18mm Romfords, so that's only 4'6" in 4mm scale, more like a six-coupled goods of the period (e.g. the Ilfracombe Goods of 1872).  At HO, however, the coupled wheels would be 19.25mm, so I assume the builder used the nearest available.

 

Wheel base for the prototype is 6' (24mm in 1/76) + 6'6" (26mm) + 8' (32mm)

 

The wheelbase of the model is 22mm + 23mm + 29mm.

 

So, in OO we have a 4'6" 4-4-0 intermediate.  As such it will be interesting to see how she compares with the 4'7" 2-4-0 rebuilt from the ex-CMR tanks.

 

The handrail knobs are, I think, 4mm fittings.  If other 4mm accessories - engine crew, smokebox dart and lubricators, salter valves, lamps and brackets, couplings, vac pipes etc - are added, I think this will confirm her appearance as a small locomotive in 4mm.  The plastic tender wheels, which are only 11mm in diameter, need replacing, and I think Gibson 13mm tender wheels will do the trick.   

 

So, there we have it. The intention is to derive a suitable WN locomotive from this model.  Quite what backstory I'll need to concoct to explain this 7/8ths version of a Cowan design I really don't know!

 

All suggestions regarding improvements to the model and in relation to its history will be most welcome, and no doubt both interesting and entertaining!

That little 4-4-0 looks great. I wouldn't worry about any discrepancies.

[nick_bastable]

as we appear to have gone all Edwardian under garments for ladies may I suggest this

 

 

Nick

 

edit for typing after a very nice bottle of wine

Edited July 9, 2017 by nick_bastable

[runs as required]

I must admit I got the GNoSR mystery loco wrang

Probably because I skim read through recent posts including K's:

Which of the two has higher status as 'National Treasure', that's the question?
I'd probably vote for BC...
K

With such a heavy hint I thought I'd nailed it as Bishop's Castle Railway

but of course it was 4-4-0 - still at HO scale on an 00 train it could be some kind of Cambrian Oswestry rebuild .

...It's time for bed dh..

 

Ed Gosh I'd no idea I was posting after such a giant pin-up. Think I might stay up with the Adult RMwebbers for a bit longer...

Edited July 9, 2017 by runs as required

[Compound2632]

The prototype had 5'6 1/2" drivers and, so, was that bracket of useful mixed traffic or intermediate 4-coupled tender engines that were once common.

 

But - I said there would be a 'but' - this cannot be a GNoSR K Class clone on the West Norfolk, because it's in fact HO or 1/87 scale!

 

The GNoSR had barely anything other than 4-4-0s - a handful of 0-4-4Ts for Aberdeen suburban work and some 0-6-0Ts for shunting, again chiefly at Aberdeen. Possibly unique among main line railways in the British Isles in never having possessed any 0-6-0 tender engines.

 

I thought she looked a little small! (Still referring to this locomotive, not to any Edwardian undies that have since appeared.)  Although Cowan's engines were built by Scottish firms, she does have something of a M&GN Beyer Peacock engine about her.

[phil_sutters]

 

 

The prototype had 5'6 1/2" drivers and, so, was that bracket of useful mixed traffic or intermediate 4-coupled tender engines that were once common. Off the top of my head I think of the LSWR 4-4-0 Steamrollers and the GER 2-4-0 T26.  The Great Western had many such.  

 

The model is scratch-built and would benefit from detailing generally, and this would be necessary if I wished better to reflect the prototype.  The smoke-box door, for example, should have the continuous 'U' ring door brackets and a handrail, and there are holes for the Roscoe lubricators, but these are not fitted, the brass dome lacks its Salter valves and the tender lacks much detail.

 

But - I said there would be a 'but' - this cannot be a GNoSR K Class clone on the West Norfolk, because it's in fact HO or 1/87 scale!

 

In 4mm scale, the coupled wheels would be 22mm in diameter. As the description stated, the model has 18mm Romfords, so that's only 4'6" in 4mm scale, more like a six-coupled goods of the period (e.g. the Ilfracombe Goods of 1872).  At HO, however, the coupled wheels would be 19.25mm, so I assume the builder used the nearest available.

 

The bogie wheels remind me of the wheels on the clockwork Bing 2-4-0Ts (one in LMS colours and one in LNER) my father unwisely passed on to me when I was about ten.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

As long as it's not GN&SR, 'cos we all know who was pictured on the box top of this rare example of a r-t-r pre-grouping train set, don't we?

 

(It is a very nice 4-4-0)

Oh yes!

[Londontram]

Hmm nice 4-4-0 let down a bit by the low looking tender though as you say a new set of bigger wheels will cure that in fact new pony truck wheels will help the look as well, even though its HO other than the tender it doesn't look low or to small on the front of those coaches.

 

Now how did it get to Norfolk? easy it was roistered on one of the famous seasonal fish girl trains that brought all the Scottish fish girls down to Norfolk following the fishing fleet to process all the herrings and due to loco shortages she had to run all the way down with out changing. Simples

[Edwardian]

Hmm nice 4-4-0 let down a bit by the low looking tender though as you say a new set of bigger wheels will cure that in fact new pony truck wheels will help the look as well, even though its HO other than the tender it doesn't look low or to small on the front of those coaches.

 

 

 

Thanks, Steve.  I agree, the tender is too low, even for HO.  I tried it with 14mm Mansells to see how it looked, and 14mm tender wheels could work.  I have a feeling that 13mm wheels might look a shade better.  

 

Replacing the bogie wheels might be a good idea - the present ones scale out at only 2'6" - but I am concerned that larger wheels might conflict with the con rods on curves. 

 

In other news, Don W, one of the stalwarts of Alternative Norfolk, has produced a track plan that can be printed out full size.  This will allow me to finalise baseboard dimensions, build the front two boards and then, I suppose, lay track (or at least attempt to build points).

 

Many thanks indeed to Don W for all the time and trouble to allow me to reach what could be a breakthrough moment. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Edwardian

[Londontram]

I don't think you need to go larger with the pony truck wheels just a better more modern profile. As you say a little bit of sympathetic detailing will lift it immensely, simple things like a better set of springs on the tender and as you've noted the safety valves also a decent set of cab steps would be a good start.

 

Go on you know you want too.

[Edwardian]

I don't think you need to go larger with the pony truck wheels just a better more modern profile. As you say a little bit of sympathetic detailing will lift it immensely, simple things like a better set of springs on the tender and as you've noted the safety valves also a decent set of cab steps would be a good start.

 

Go on you know you want too.

 

Thanks, Steve.

 

Yes the tender needs the most detailing.  I have some RT Models leaf springs (from their Manning Wardle tank kits), and I thought these might do.

 

I note that Alan Gibson will now supply a set of Salter valves separately, so will endeavour to order these along with replacement tender wheels.

[uax6]

You might even be able to get a larger set of drivers in the splashers...

 

Is there a link rod visible in the hole above the tender axleboxes? If not I would add one, as that would at least visually connect the axleboxes with the springs...

 

Andy G

[Londontram]

Going off at a tangent here's a nice photo of Castle Acre that someone posted on the Norfolk country side forum on facebook that I thought you might like to see..

[uax6]

The daughter Uax's next year history topic is the Normans and the Norman Conquest. I'm tempted to drag her and Mrs Uax off to the above castle so she can have a run round, sorry, get a grasp of what it all meant....

 

Andy G

[£1.38]

Thanks, Steve.  I agree, the tender is too low, even for HO.  I tried it with 14mm Mansells to see how it looked, and 14mm tender wheels could work.  I have a feeling that 13mm wheels might look a shade better.  

 

Replacing the bogie wheels might be a good idea - the present ones scale out at only 2'6" - but I am concerned that larger wheels might conflict with the con rods on curves.

 

The GNoSR locos were built by Neilson I believe, so could easily have been built for other railways. A number of later GNoSR locos ended up on the SE&CR because the GNoSR ordered too many, so strange things can happen.

 

Larger bogie wheels with a smaller flange might help - like Gibson or Ultrascale.

[Edwardian]

The GNoSR locos were built by Neilson I believe, so could easily have been built for other railways. A number of later GNoSR locos ended up on the SE&CR because the GNoSR ordered too many, so strange things can happen.

 

Larger bogie wheels with a smaller flange might help - like Gibson or Ultrascale.

 

Yes, it was Neilson & Co, and I had thought that a reasonable approach was to posit an order to Neilsons resulting in them adapting and scaling down the GNoSR design.

 

I will see what Gibsons have to offer in terms of bogie wheels, as I need to order from them anyway.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

Going off at a tangent here's a nice photo of Castle Acre that someone posted on the Norfolk country side forum on facebook that I thought you might like to see..

Castle Acre.jpg

 

Rather, a timely remainder that the Castle now needs some walls and a gateway.

 

 

The daughter Uax's next year history topic is the Normans and the Norman Conquest. I'm tempted to drag her and Mrs Uax off to the above castle so she can have a run round, sorry, get a grasp of what it all meant....

 

Andy G

 

Well, you must. And Castle Rising.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Edwardian

[uax6]

Shes been to CR with school this term, so CA needs investigating. And if we choose a warm day, she can go paddling in one of the many fords, like I used to...

 

Andy G

[Donw]

Thank you.  Someone did a nice, neat, solid job on her and she is an elegant little body. I think she will fit the bill nicely. 

 

 

 

There is only one sensible response to that train set ....

 

When I read that first line I knew you were thinking of JA again before seeing the picture below.

Don

[Donw]

 

In other news, Don W, one of the stalwarts of Alternative Norfolk, has produced a track plan that can be printed out full size.  This will allow me to finalise baseboard dimensions, build the front two boards and then, I suppose, lay track (or at least attempt to build points).

 

Many thanks indeed to Don W for all the time and trouble to allow me to reach what could be a breakthrough moment. 

 

'Twas a pleasure

 

Don

[Edwardian]

You might even be able to get a larger set of drivers in the splashers...

 

 

 

Thinking on this, I realised that the footplate sits too high above the wheel-centres compared with the prototype, causing the locomotive footplate to be a little higher than the footplate on the tender, which was not the case with the prototype.

 

This is good news for me, because it means that the loco footplate and buffers are at an acceptable height for 4mm scale, whereas the tender footplate can be raised sufficiently by the simple expedient for fitting larger wheels.

 

It might be possible to fit 19mm, or even 20mm Romfords in substitution, but I am too inexpert to go mucking about with the working parts.  The loco is said to be a hesitant performer and may need some attention, e.g. to the pick-ups, but unless it needs a comprehensive stripping down, I am disinclined to interfere with the wheelsets. 

 

As I'm content to have a 4'6" Intermediate, I think I will hang fire on that possibility.

[runs as required]

Rather, a timely remainder that the Castle now needs some walls and a gateway.

And a reminder too that your fan club out across every corner of the world (nay, planet is the currently fashionable word) keep 'clamouring' for some antiquarians' maps to unearthed of mediaeval CA and posted here.

 

Presumably the gatehouse across the street leading into the market area was part of a wall system - of a large Bailey? Or of a wall encircling the mediaeval town?

dh

[Edwardian]

And a reminder too that your fan club out across every corner of the world (nay, planet is the currently fashionable word) keep 'clamouring' for some antiquarians' maps to unearthed of mediaeval CA and posted here.

 

Presumably the gatehouse across the street leading into the market area was part of a wall system - of a large Bailey? Or of a wall encircling the mediaeval town?

dh

 

Of a large Bailey, yes.  Perhaps the village grew up there and/or outside.

 

Something like this?

[£1.38]

After seeing that last sketch, I think you ought to rename your layout Disneyland Norfolk

 

 

 

 

 

Only joking.

[Poggy1165]

Fortified towns in England were relatively rare. Mainly found near the Welsh or Scottish borders. Or maybe the south coast where vulnerable to those Frenchies. (e.g Rye).  Unless very important (medieval) places, like York, Norwich. 

 

However, it is entirely possible that a town, or part thereof, could grow up within a fortified site after it had been abandoned. I can't think of example offhand, but that doesn't mean that none exists.