Castle Aching

[Hroth]

Woke from an amazingly detailed and rather odd dream and couldn't get back to sleep so came here to exercise the brain a little... 

 

Ignoring the "Sun" link, I agree with sem34090 regarding the police having to deal with the protestors without the benefit of facemasks.  I suppose such masks would have been a physical target for protestors wanting to get arrested and if they had worn them they would also be accused of being a faceless police hit squad by the protestors and their political friends.  Did you see the photo on the BBC website of Corbyns brother being arrested at the protest?  The archetypal image of a wild socialist...

 

As for the basis of the protest, you'd think they'd have shied away from being linked to similar Trumpist protests in the US. 

 

On a lighter note.  "Waterloo" voted best ever Eurovision song? 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52615403

There's scary!

 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

45 minutes ago, Hroth said:

On a lighter note.  "Waterloo" voted best ever Eurovision song? 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52615403

There's scary!

 

 

 

Aaah yes but I believe the win was a ........... wait for it .......... wait for it ......... "the nearest run thing you ever saw in your life" *   

 

 

 

*Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington 

[sem34090]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

Woke from an amazingly detailed and rather odd dream and couldn't get back to sleep so came here to exercise the brain a little... 

Always a good shout... infinitely more sanity per square yard in Castle Aching than in the world at large.

Quote

Ignoring the "Sun" link,

I do apologise for that. I ought to look into substituting it for a better one showing the same or similar events. I think there are only a couple of rungs below The Sun...

Quote

I agree with sem34090 regarding the police having to deal with the protestors without the benefit of facemasks.  I suppose such masks would have been a physical target for protestors wanting to get arrested and if they had worn them they would also be accused of being a faceless police hit squad by the protestors and their political friends. 

On the flip side some of the mob are using it as 'proof' the virus isn't real.

Quote

Did you see the photo on the BBC website of Corbyns brother being arrested at the protest?  The archetypal image of a wild socialist...

Saw that.

Quote

As for the basis of the protest, you'd think they'd have shied away from being linked to similar Trumpist protests in the US. 

Ah, well that's where it gets complicated. Reading the comments on some of these videos, some are referring to the police/government/anyone-who-doesn't-serve-their-definition-of-freedom 'Fascist', others to the same establishment as 'Communist', and thus it would seem that both ugly ends of the political spectrum are involved in this.

 

Hopefully they'll disappear as a result, but that'll never happen.

Quote

On a lighter note.  "Waterloo" voted best ever Eurovision song? 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52615403

There's scary!

It was all engineered by the South Western Circle - It's a hoax! They also colluded to use 5G to forcefully promote holidays to Ilfracombe and Padstow, and once we're all there the government will kill us all because that's obviously what every government really wants.

It's true - I know it is because I say so, and because I say so you ought to believe it! And you won't be able to prove me wrong because A.) reasoned debate and logic are alien to me because I think freedom of speech means I can spread my brand of bull's excrement without challenge, B.) the government has so hushed-up the truth that only I and those who believe in my bull's excrement know it and C.) I cannot accept anything beyond my own belief.

 

(You can't tell I've spent too much time reading YouTube comments this morning, can you? )

 

1 hour ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by sem34090

[Nearholmer]

Bonkers, and dangerous (anti-vaxers and super-libertarians). If we were stuck on a ship, rather than a planet, with the virus, I'd put 'em off on the next uninhabited island, which suggests that we should send them all to the moon. Lord Sumption could rule over them.

 

More calming things:

 

As i said yesterday, I'm pretty sure the sticking-up pipe on 'Bodiam' is the exhaust pipe from the ejector(s). The other pipe close to it is probably the live steam connection to the ejector(s) with its stop-valve. Assuming that the loco has been fitted with a modern combined ejector(s) and brake valve, like the one Annie shows, in the cab, only pipes will be visible in the area concerned.

 

Usually, the exhaust from the ejector(s) goes to the smokebox to aid draft, but on a quick and dirty retrofit, that would be more trouble.

 

I don't think the upright pipe has anything to do with the condensing kit,or venting the tanks, given that it isn't present on any other Terrier with condensing kit.

 

I think that the tank vents are those thin dome-topped things at the forward end of the tanks, and that the thing extending from cab to smokebox is the blower control.

 

LBSCR.org has a picture of every single Terrier in one of its fairly-early conditions, so hours can be spent deciphering pipe-runs.

 

Waterloo: the real song is 'Waterloo Sunset' by The Kinks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Well, now, I had not heard anything about this protest,.  Those pictures are horrific.  My first reaction was how exposed the police were. As to the level of incalculable idiocy this represents ... I'm lost for words. 

 

7 hours ago, Dave John said:

Hmm, were these condensing engines ? If so why ? The pipe from  the smokebox to the tank would suggest so, why else would it be there? In which case the tanks would need to be vented explaining the vertical pipe indicated above. 

 

NeilHBs version is excellent, but I do think that the tanks would have to be vented somehow. Note also the handrail connects to a device on the smokebox. Not sure but CR condensing engines used a similar arrangement to control the valve that diverted steam from the blast pipe to the tanks. 

 

 

This is my 29 class , which although a bit crude as a model indicates what I mean. The "steam" exit from the tanks is that vertical pipe just in front of the spectacle plate. The loop of pipe is to reduce condensate runback to the firebox , the same function as that domed pipe in a pipe shown above. 

 

The bit of rod from the handrail to the smokebox operates the diverter, blast pipe or condensing. 

 

Just me thinking too late at night. 

 

 

 

That's fascinating (and a beautiful model).  I suspect, however, we're talking about two different things. 

 

The condensing pipes in the A1, of course, took exhaust steam from the smoke box into the tanks to heat the feed water. There were steam exhaust domes, and these are the slim domes mounted forward on the tank tops. 

 

Stroudley thought to cut fuel consumption by feeding hot water into the boiler. It was a circulatory system; the left hand took the exhaust steam into the left tank, then surplus steam went out via the right tank and the right condensing pipe back to the smoke box where it would be vented via the blast pipe. The valves were operated from the footplate, which is what I think the lines running through the boiler hand rails are about. They contain 'control wires' or pipes that terminate in brass fittings on the smoke box.  These are different each side, perhaps reflecting the fact that one is to do with letting steam into the tanks and the other expelling it via the chimney.

 

Now, fascinating as that all may be, I don't think that helps us with the brake ejectors.

 

When sold by the Brighton, this was an air-braked loco.  The RVR needed to adopt it to a vac braked engine.

 

When the Southern converted theirs, they fitted the cranked exhaust pipe running to the smoke box that we see on Neil's model. LSWR and SE&CR variants were seen on their Terriers.

 

The RVR seems to have done its own homemade conversion.  Rather than venting into the smokebox, as the SR did, which was generally the preferred option because, as I mentioned in my initial  post, it aided the draft, the RVR seems to have favoured a simpler solution, bordering on the crude, and I take the vertical pipe to be venting the vac exhaust skyward.

 

That much I know, or think I know, but I am not confident about the finer points of operation and how the pipes appear on top of the left hand tank.

 

 

6 hours ago, Annie said:

Please be aware that I know very little about how all this works.

(Click on image to increase size)

 

 

More than you might ever what to know on the subject.

 

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r143.html

 

Well that's interesting.  It shows a pipe to the smokebox, but also one to the dome. 

 

Are we taking steam from the dome to the ejector and then exhausting to the smoke box?

 

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Bonkers, and dangerous (anti-vaxers and super-libertarians). If we were stuck on a ship, rather than a planet, with the virus, I'd put 'em off on the next uninhabited island, which suggests that we should send them all to the moon. Lord Sumption could rule over them.

 

More calming things:

 

As i said yesterday, I'm pretty sure the sticking-up pipe on 'Bodiam' is the exhaust pipe from the ejector(s). The other pipe close to it is probably the live steam connection to the ejector(s) with its stop-valve. Assuming that the loco has been fitted with a modern combined ejector(s) and brake valve, like the one Annie shows, in the cab, only pipes will be visible in the area concerned.

 

Yes, I agree the upright pipe in the exhaust pipe. What is its relationship with the live steam ejector pipe?  In terms of how the system operates and where the pipes go to and from? 

 

Is it the case that the brass pipe with the stop valve takes steam from the boiler to the ejector?

 

If so, from where does it come?  It appears to come up from the tank.

 

The vertical exhaust pipe I, therefore, assume is (i) is not connected to the brass pope (save that they both meet in the ejector) and (ii) runs from the ejector in the cab.

 

Is that right?

 

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Usually, the exhaust from the ejector(s) goes to the smokebox to aid draft, but on a quick and dirty retrofit, that would be more trouble.

 

Agreed, that is surely what has happened here

 

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I don't think the upright pipe has anything to do with the condensing kit,or venting the tanks, given that it isn't present on any other Terrier with condensing kit.

 

Agreed

 

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think that the tank vents are those thin dome-topped things at the forward end of the tanks, and that the thing extending from cab to smokebox is the blower control.

 

Yes, 

 

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

LBSCR.org has a picture of every single Terrier in one of its fairly-early conditions, so hours can be spent deciphering pipe-runs.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

A vacuum ejector is what is known as an ‘eductor pump’, working on the Venturi principle.

 

Live steam (tapped from wherever there is a convenient source, and my guess would be that the RVR fitter made a connection to the feed to the boiler water injectors) is fed into the broad end of a cone, and shoots out of the narrow end. As it goes through the cone, it’s speed increases and it’s pressure drops, creating a vacuum that is used to entrain ‘whatever’, in this case air, which is shot out along with the fast-moving steam.

 

A boiler feed injector is effectively the same, but it entrains water, rather than air.

 

James Dyson knows all about this stuff, and many of his devices exploit the Venturi effect.

 

In the combined ejector/valve, there are two or three different-sized ejector comes to ‘blow off’ then maintain the brake vacuum, plus the driver’s valve, which admits air to the system to destro the vacuum.

 

Very compact and ingenious, really.

[Edwardian]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Live steam (tapped from wherever there is a convenient source, and my guess would be that the RVR fitter made a connection to the feed to the boiler water injectors) i

 

That makes sense, but I'd need to know where the water feed injectors are.

 

Does this help at all?

 

 

As for the exhaust, does that just come out of the cab front as an 'L' shaped pipe in order to exhaust upward?

[monkeysarefun]

8 hours ago, Annie said:

.

I was a keen modeller in paper and card when I was still doing model-making, - partly because it's stunningly cheap, - but also because excellent results can be obtained that can be almost as good as anything done with plastics or metal.

 

I remember an O gauge model of a Duchess that a guy was scratch building out of card, that was mind bendingly amazing.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97762-duchess-of-sutherland-of-cardboard/

[Nearholmer]

I'm afraid that I can't find injectors on that drawing, but I'm half-sure I can discern a crosshead-driven feed pump. did the Terriers have one of each originally? Can anyone else see an injector?

 

There aren't many places an injector could fit, so I'm going to guess that it is low down on the LHS, tucked below the boiler and behind the tank. Which sounds really awkward, given that they sometimes need attention.

 

Does it really matter for a 4mm/ft model? You have a pipe coming up from that general direction, which is all that you can see, in the same way that you have pipes descending from the boiler clack valves to "somewhere".

[Edwardian]

12 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm afraid that I can't find injectors on that drawing, but I'm half-sure I can discern a crosshead-driven feed pump. did the Terriers have one of each originally? Can anyone else see an injector?

 

There aren't many places an injector could fit, so I'm going to guess that it is low down on the LHS, tucked below the boiler and behind the tank. Which sounds really awkward, given that they sometimes need attention.

 

Does it really matter for a 4mm/ft model? You have a pipe coming up from that general direction, which is all that you can see, in the same way that you have pipes descending from the boiler clack valves to "somewhere".

 

So, do you think it would be acceptable to terminate the brass pipe on the tank top and likewise have the vertical exhaust pipe just mounted on the tank-top?

[Nearholmer]

To me, they both emerge through the cab front sheet, one going up to atmosphere, the other going down between tank and boiler to “wherever”. Presumably, they’d have some brackets to secure them, but I do wonder whether they might just ‘free float’.

 

All conjecture on my part, based on how I’d do it if I was the fitter.

[RodneyS]

The Terriers as built had feed water heating and water pumps as injectors at that time would not work with hot water.

I have read stories of locos of locos uncoupling from their trains and prowling up and down the platforms just to get some water in the boiler.

Later on injectors were fitted inside the fame, presumably where the pumps were, with the overflow projecting out between the leading and centre wheels.

The vertical pipe is the vacuum ejector exhaust and mention has been made of this in the magazine of The Colonel Stephens Society.  I think there was a photo showing a jet of steam going upwards from it.  Later on it was re-routed to the smoke box in the conventional manner.

I would guess the pipe came through the cab front from the ejector and was just bent upwards.  I don't suppose we will ever know all the exact details.

Rodney

[Edwardian]

19 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

To me, they both emerge through the cab front sheet, one going up to atmosphere, the other going down between tank and boiler to “wherever”. Presumably, they’d have some brackets to secure them, but I do wonder whether they might just ‘free float’.

 

All conjecture on my part, based on how I’d do it if I was the fitter.

 

That makes sense, hence I posited that the vertical exhaust pipe was in fact an L-shape, leading through the cab front sheet from the ejector. 

 

The brass pipe appears to go into the tank, but, if so, must be on it's way to the boiler?  

 

Alternatively, I can kink it into the boiler.

 

14 minutes ago, RodneyS said:

 

The vertical pipe is the vacuum ejector exhaust and mention has been made of this in the magazine of The Colonel Stephens Society.  I think there was a photo showing a jet of steam going upwards from it.  Later on it was re-routed to the smoke box in the conventional manner.

 

Good, we all seem to agree on this.

 

14 minutes ago, RodneyS said:

I would guess the pipe came through the cab front from the ejector and was just bent upwards.  I don't suppose we will ever know all the exact details.

Rodney

 

Again, that would be my guess, as it has to come from the cab ejector and it seem unlikely that it would come via the tank.

 

Still, as you can tell, I'm really not comfortable in this area, so I am very grateful to both you and Nearholmer, as it gives me comfort that I should fit an L-shaped exhaust pipe leading from the cab.

 

Now, I'm still uncertain as to where the brass pipe goes; it's point of disappearance from view.

 

I suppose I should make some effort to represent the ejector in the cab. 

[Compound2632]

I will bow to the superior engineering knowledge of almost anyone, especially @Nearholmer, but as the usual arrangement seems to be to take the ejector exhaust pipe to the smokebox, I suspect that advantage is being taken of the partial vacuum created there by the exhaust blast to increase the efficiency of the ejector by increasing the pressure difference across it. 

 

The Rother Valley's fitter may have judged that the engine wasn't going to be asked either to work so hard as to create significant vacuum in the smokebox or to haul such a load at such a speed as to make the increase in efficiency worth the cost and effort of the extra pipework.

 

EDIT: Or he may not have bothered to read the installation manual.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I will bow to the superior engineering knowledge of almost anyone, especially @Nearholmer, but as the usual arrangement seems to be to take the ejector exhaust pipe to the smokebox, I suspect that advantage is being taken of the partial vacuum created there by the exhaust blast to increase the efficiency of the ejector by increasing the pressure difference across it. 

 

Too much of a thicky Arts graduate to have understood that bit. 

 

Quote

The Rother Valley's fitter may have judged that the engine wasn't going to be asked either to work so hard as to create significant vacuum in the smokebox or to haul such a load at such a speed as to make the increase in efficiency worth the cost and effort of the extra pipework.

 

This bit is logical to me; IIRC the RVR had a 25mph speed limit under its LRA Order.  

 

I think the only steep gradient was that up to Tenterden Town, built after Bodiam was acquired, if memory serves.

 

I doubt the Colonel would ever need to flog Bodiam to work the line

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Edwardian
spelling!

[Nearholmer]

My gut feel is that the guy didn’t want to go putting a hole into the smoke box, or worse still adding another flanged outlet from the boiler, given limited tools and limited time.

 

The early preservation set-up at Rolvenden was probably very similar to things in RVR days, which is to say pretty basic. I did a few turns there as an inept apprentice, and although the guy in charge was a qualified boiler-smith what could be done with the facilities available was very limited. From what I recall, a disused loco in basically sound condition, with a fit boiler, could be got into working order, but not much more. The locos used were austerities and Yankee tanks that had arrived in semi-usable condition, ditto the Norwegian, but locos needing deeper work had to wait.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Too much of a thicky Arts graduate to have understood that bit. 

 

There will be things you know that are clear as daylight to you but opaque to a science graduate.

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There will be things you know that are clear as daylight to you but opaque to a science graduate.

 

Perhaps, but probably not very useful things!

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Perhaps, but probably not very useful things!

 

A thing need not be useful to be worth knowing. Isn't that the premise of this thread?

[St Enodoc]

11 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

My gut feel is that the guy didn’t want to go putting a hole into the smoke box, or worse still adding another flanged outlet from the boiler, given limited tools and limited time.

 

The early preservation set-up at Rolvenden was probably very similar to things in RVR days, which is to say pretty basic. I did a few turns there as an inept apprentice, and although the guy in charge was a qualified boiler-smith what could be done with the facilities available was very limited. From what I recall, a disused loco in basically sound condition, with a fit boiler, could be got into working order, but not much more. The locos used were austerities and Yankee tanks that had arrived in semi-usable condition, ditto the Norwegian, but locos needing deeper work had to wait.

Many preservation outfits started off that way. Some have not progressed much further (no names, no pack drill).

[Tom Burnham]

22 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Modification of the Rails loco should be reasonably straight forward. The back-dating is largely a matter of removing the coal rails and modifying the livery. Rails has captured all of the basic A1 features, leaving little to do, but, in order to bring her in line with the RVR/K&ESR she will need vac fittings.  This will mean vac stand pipes (I don't see any steam heating pipes at the period in question), which is straight forward.

The Kent & East Sussex decided to introduce steam heating in 1910, which was the motive for some of the changes in carriage stock around that period - https://www.colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/kent and east sussex/locos and rolling stock.html

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

 

Ye gods! What are those children up to?

 

I thought that in those olden days, we were supposed to be burdened with far greater Common Sense!

 

 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Ye gods! What are those children up to?

 

I thought that in those olden days, we were supposed to be burdened with far greater Common Sense!

 

 

Common sense says that as there's no visible danger, they're OK.

[Edwardian]

54 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

The Kent & East Sussex decided to introduce steam heating in 1910, which was the motive for some of the changes in carriage stock around that period - https://www.colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/kent and east sussex/locos and rolling stock.html

 

Yes, I think a dual period might be a nice idea:

 

(1) RVR 1901-1904.  This would involve the back-dated Bodiam and one of the Hawthorns. Stock would be one of the 2 Hurst Nelson sets and the early GER set.

 

(2) KE&SR c.1910.  That way I can sneak in the Ilfracombe Goods (Branchlines kit).  Bodiam would be as per the Rails one with the vac additions already discussed and steam heating pipes. I'd avoid the rebuilt Hurst Nelson stock, as they didn't seem to be active for that long.  So, perhaps some of the first ex-LSWR stock?

 

If I chose the Hawthorn that retained its small wheels, I could perhaps get away with using my "Era 1" loco in both periods; I've not really considered these locos closely enough as yet, and I only need 2 trains/engines to run the line.  No need for both Hawthorns or both Terriers.  

 

A model of Robertsbridge would be good, because I could effectively achieve much of what I wanted to do with the Dunton Green scheme; SE&CR mainline traffic including the Hastings Car Train, with a branchline junction.

 

However, sanity suggests one of the wayside stations on the original Rother Valley section.  Bodiam had a siding added in 1910, but I think Northiam would have shown few changes during the Edwardian period. What also commends this station is that it had a loop and two platforms, allowing both trains to come onstage at once and pass if wished.  Whether the RVR was often that busy is another matter, but with shunting lag due to mixed trains, I would guess anything is possible!

[RodneyS]

Having looked at the photos on the previous page again I think I might change my opinion.

The vertical pipe looks to be too far from the cab front to go along horizontally and then bend upwards.

There will be a gap between the tanks and the boiler which, on Brighton locos, is sheeted over.

Perhaps the ejector is in this space under the sheeting ?  If so, then the vertical pipe will come out of a hole between the tank and boiler.  The curved pipe could be the steam supply and that would go through a similar hole.

That is the way I might do it.  Neat, even if it's wrong !

 

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I suppose I should make some effort to represent the ejector in the cab. 

 

The brake valve which Hornby have modelled is quite large and obvious in the cab.  Did the K&ESR locos have something similar?  I can't see one looking at your photos.  Perhaps there is a smaller brake valve which is not so obvious?

 

To try and make sense of this I consulted my old copy of  'Handbook for Railway Stem Locomotive Enginemen'.

It didn't help !  There are many variations of brake valves and ejectors.

Looking through, I think (but I could be wrong) that the later Terriers have a Dreadnought ejector and brake valve combined in a substantial lump. 

There are other arrangements with the ejector and brake valve separate.   Perhaps this is what the K&ESR had ?

The later re-routing could have been the result of replacing the ejector and brake valve.

 

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Perhaps, but probably not very useful things!

 

I'm not too sure that deciding where to put little bits of wire on a plastic model could be classified as 'useful'.

It is great fun though !

Rodney