Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

22 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Well it is a 36 year old wagon...

 

It would be quite lovely to see that sort of Tare script on the WNR vehicles, it has a certain elegance that the block scripts just don't have. A small railway having more care for its fleet perhaps?

 

Andy G

 

I plan to use an assortment of superannuated, mainly dumb-buffer, opens for the coal trains from Wolfringham Staithe.  The train I have in mind will be quite the museum on wheels and hopefully will include just such little 1860s wagons, but with a Scotch brake.  I don't see why the WNR would not paint them (grey) and letter them as per the rest of the fleet:  Small W.N.R, 6 TONS and, e.g. Tare 3-17-0

 

I think I might also chuck some the Norfolk Minerals' way, in red lead and with no effort to write anything on them!

 

 

[Edwardian]

By the way, am I correct to assume that the highest value of the second figure (hundredweight) would be 19, and to the third figure (quarters) 3?

 

Hence  5-19-3 to 6.0.0?

[Chrisbr]

GWR 4 plank wagons built in Lot 254, all shipped out week of May 13 1899 -  2 @ 5.4.0, 1 @ 5.5.0, 2 @ 5.6.0 and 5 @ 5.7.0

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

By the way, am I correct to assume that the highest value of the second figure (hundredweight) would be 19, and to the third figure (quarters) 3?

 

Hence  5-19-3 to 6.0.0?

 20 cwt to the ton, four quarters to the hundredweight. 

[Edwardian]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 20 cwt to the ton, four quarters to the hundredweight. 

 

So that would be "yes" then?

 

EDIT: Oh, I see you rated "Agree", thanks.  Excellent. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Edwardian

[Donw]

In my ignorance I had assumed it was tons, cwt, and stones. I was used to things being sold by the stone. Fish and Potatoes were widely sold by the stone. I never came across the quarter in use. One never stops learning. 

Don

[brack]

For all the stupidity that went on in late 18th century france, the metric system is a work of genius. If only we'd listened to talleyrand's invitation to cooperate with its development. The principles behind it were probably first set out by John Wilkins anyway, so it's hardly foreign.

[Annie]

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Perhaps parishioners could help with this provisional table?

 

Short 5-plank1860s (wooden u/f)        6 TONS                               4-4-0, 4-4-1, 4-4-2, 4-4-3

1 plank (wooden u/f)                              8 TONS                               4-9-0, 4-9-1, 4-9-2, 4-9-3, 4-10-0, 4-10-1, 4-10-2, 4-10-3

3 plank (wooden u/f)                              8 TONS                               4-12-0, 4-12-1, 4-12-2, 4-12-3

4/5-plank (wooden u/f)                          8 TONS, 9 TONS                5-10-1, 5-10-2, 5-10-3, 5-11-0, 5-11-1, 5-11-2, 15-11-3

                                                                                                               5-14-0, 5-14-1, 5-14-2, 15-14-3, 15-15-0, 5-15-1, 5-15-2, 15-14-3

5-plank (steel u/f)                                   10 TONS                             5-5-0, 5-5-1, 5-5-2, 5-5-3, 5-6-0, 5-6-1, 5-6-2, 5-6-3

6-7-plank (steel u/f)                                10 TONS                             5-7-0, 5-7-1, 5-7-2, 5-7-3

Covered wagon (wooden u/f)                 8 TONS                             6-5-0, 6-5-1, 6-5-2, 6-5-3

I've 'borrowed' your list James since I can see it coming very much in handy with my own wagon building projects.

[Edwardian]

5 hours ago, brack said:

For all the stupidity that went on in late 18th century france, the metric system is a work of genius. If only we'd listened to talleyrand's invitation to cooperate with its development. The principles behind it were probably first set out by John Wilkins anyway, so it's hardly foreign.

 

Yes, especially as, unlike 12, 10 divides easily in so many ways ...  no, wait ....

 

For me, four great crimes were perpetrated against my world when I was a a small child; metrification, decimalisation of currency, the destruction of our old administrative counties. and a town planning campaign that outdid the best efforts of the Luftwaffe by a considerable margin.

 

These were some of the good intentions that paved the way to a soulless concrete 1970s Hell, which saw us brutally cut off from so much of what had evolved as the character of Britain. As a result, I have learnt to cherish the peculiar and the asymmetrical over the neat and ordered, the organic over the artificial and evolution over planning, and to view all modernisers reformers, do-gooders and rationalisers with a baleful eye.   

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Edwardian

[monkeysarefun]

And World Series Cricket!

[TheQ]

22 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Anyone see an item on the BBC news website about a teenager going out for his lockdown exercise dressed, very convincingly, as a C17th plague doctor, terrifying the locals (some of ‘em anyway).

 

Naturally enough, this is in a small village in Norfolk.

That small village in Norfolk is Hellesdon, where the Norwich MRC hold their show,  it's between Norwich airport and the City.  You'll not notice when you move between the two,  because the only difference is boundary road. Home to Norwich's main Asda, B&Q, B&M, it's an area of housing estates and some industrial estates.. 

[Compound2632]

Whatever one thinks of the SI or the metric system in general, surely all true Britons can take pride in the fact that the international prototype kilogram, a 43 mm diameter by 43 mm long cylinder of platinum iridium alloy that was until just under a year ago the defining artifact for mass in the SI, was made in 1879 by the firm of Johnson Matthey of Hatton Graden, and that the new definition of the kilogram, based on an assigned numerical value for the Planck constant, was made possible through the development of the Kibble Balance at the National Physical Laboratory, Teddington, by Bryan Kibble from 1975 onwards.

 

55 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

These were some of the good intentions that paved the way to a soulless concrete 1970s Hell,

 

For the epitome of that, see @wombatofludham's marvellous Wednesford, which in its way is as evocative of place as Castle Aching itself. It makes me almost (but not quite) nostalgic for blue diesels and electrics and the West Midlands of my youth.

[TheQ]

1 hour ago, Lantavian said:

 

Britain is metric? Really? Well I never.

Britain signed the metric convention in 1884, metric units have been lawful for most uses since 1897. Imperial measurements have been defined by metric measurements since 1959, so 1 foot is legally defined as 304.8 mm. Or a yard as 0.9144 Metre. Same applies to the USA.  

 

Oh we had a demonstration, of a Kibble balance at work last year on world Metrology day,  by my boss,  the head of calibration.. Who's doing my work at the moment 'cos I'm sat at home, shielding.. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by TheQ

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

For me, four great crimes were perpetrated against my world when I was a a small child; metrification, decimalisation of currency, the destruction of our old administrative counties. and a town planning campaign that outdid the best efforts of the Luftwaffe by a considerable margin.

 

These were some of the good intentions that paved the way to a soulless concrete 1970s Hell, which saw us brutally cut off from so much of what had evolved as the character of Britain. As a result, I have learnt to cherish the peculiar and the asymmetrical over the neat and ordered, the organic over the artificial and evolution over planning, and to view all modernisers reformers, do-gooders and rationalisers with a baleful eye.   

 

The same kind of thing happened here James, - though without the Luftwaffe, - with a good many wonderful old buildings being swept away and replaced with soulless concrete boxes.  And the same thing happened with metrification and the decimalisation of our currency.  In school as a child I can remember being taught the Imperial system and how to add and subtract pounds, shillings and pence almost right up to the day the changes were announced and then our teacher clones simply clicked over to teaching the new system as if new programming had been inserted into their heads.  It was the forerunner of the collapse of much that was good in our society and the rise of the evils of modernism.

[Donw]

6 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

Earlier you said Britain went metric when you were a young boy ... does that mean you're more than 120 years old :-)

 

 

Well he does go by the name Edwardian

 

Actually these decisions to enforce the use of the decimal system, change the money, the monstrous planning etc. were not made because there was a large public clamour for them. They were made for us by those who feel they know best. I have a strong dislike of descisions made on my behalf with out me be asked. It was one thing to choose in the victorian era to accept the use of the metric measurements for those who WISHED to. It is not the same as saying WE DONT want you to use the system you know.

 

Don

[Edwardian]

Following very helpful feedback, I have revised the sample Tare table thus:

 

Short 5-plank 1860s (wooden u/f)            6 TONS                               3-17-0, 3-17-1, 3-17-2, 3-17-3, 3-18-0

1 plank (wooden u/f)                                  8 TONS                                4-9-0, 4-9-1, 4-9-2, 4-9-3, 4-10-0, 4-10-1, 4-10-2, 4-10-3

Bolster (wooden u/f)                                  8 TONS                                 4-14-0, 4-14-1, 14-14-2, 4-14-3 

3 plank (wooden u/f) old round ended  8 TONS                                 14-16-1, 5-6-0, 5-8-3,

3 plank (wooden u/f) dropside                 8 TONS                                14-11-3, 5-7-0, 5-10-0

4/5-plank (wooden u/f)                              8 TONS, 9 TONS                 5-10-1, 5-10-2, 5-10-3, 5-11-0, 5-11-1, 5-11-2, 15-11-3, 5-12-0

                                                                                                                     5-14-0, 5-14-1, 5-14-2, 15-14-3, 15-15-0, 5-15-1, 5-15-2, 5-15-3, 5-16-0, 5-12-2

5-plank (steel u/f)                                      10 TONS                                5-5-0, 5-5-1, 5-5-2, 5-5-3, 5-6-0, 5-6-1, 5-6-2, 5-6-3

6-7-plank (steel u/f)                                  10 TONS                                 5-7-0, 5-7-1, 5-7-2, 5-7-3

Covered wagon (wooden u/f)                   8 TONS, 10 TONS              6-5-0, 6-5-1, 6-5-2, 6-5-3, 6-11-0, 6-15-3

Covered wagon  (steel u/f)                       10 TONS                               6-10-0, 6-10-3   

                                                                                            

Notes:

 

In general, prototype examples given suggest that the tare weights could be quite divergent, especially in the range of hundredweights, between wagons of the same diagram, even batch.  Thus, I think my ranges are quite conservative. 

 

I have amended the short 1860s wagon weights and added some bolster wagons.

 

Looking at small wooden covered wagons, I'm reasonably happy with the original weights, but van options are not settled, so I've allowed for them to be larger and heavier and I have included the option of a steel u/f version. 

 

Hope this is good enough to consider going to print.

[drmditch]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

For me, four great crimes were perpetrated against my world when I was a a small child; metrification, decimalisation of currency, the destruction of our old administrative counties. and a town planning campaign that outdid the best efforts of the Luftwaffe by a considerable margin.

 

Metrification (metricisation?)

Very useful, especially for buoyancy, ground-loading of fluid tanks, etc etc. Nearly forgot 4mm to 1' being convenient for what I need to do when I've stopped keying this. (Locking Room sills and lintels.)

 

Decimalisation

Have you ever written computer code to deal with £Sd ?

I have, and although it can be written in a little subroutine it's a pain.

 

Counties and town planning.

Agree entirely. 

[Edwardian]

It is naive in the extreme to suppose that decisions such as these are freely made, informed and democratic.  The political and administrative elite decide what is best and the public is manipulated through pre-determined options and selective and, sometimes, downright misleading, information.  Noted examples would include (i) Decimalisation, (ii) Entry of the Common Market, (iii) Leaving the EU (it cuts both ways!). 

 

It's a perfect system for Those Set Above Us, because the manipulated democratic sanction of the people is beyond legal challenge and also beyond political challenge (you cannot, in a democracy, ever say that the People didn't know what they wanted or got it wrong).  The democratic system is, nevertheless, vulnerable to manipulation when it comes to decisions on complex issues.   I am not sure there is a satisfactory answer to this problem, however.

 

The reason BREXIT was such a mess was because Those Set Above Us Who Know Best were irreconcilably divided, on non-party lines, on the issue of What was Best for Us, something that rarely happens to that extent in a 2-party state. You mustn't delude yourself that what you thought on the issue was of any relevance at all!

 

It's all rather Paternalist, and the attitude of the political, administrative and scientific elite during the Covid-19 crisis has been quite obviously to treat us like children, even while demonstrating that they did not necessarily know best. 

 

[Annie]

55 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Following very helpful feedback, I have revised the sample Tare table thus:

 

Short 5-plank 1860s (wooden u/f)            6 TONS                               3-17-0, 3-17-1, 3-17-2, 3-17-3, 3-18-0

1 plank (wooden u/f)                                  8 TONS                                4-9-0, 4-9-1, 4-9-2, 4-9-3, 4-10-0, 4-10-1, 4-10-2, 4-10-3

Bolster (wooden u/f)                                  8 TONS                                 4-14-0, 4-14-1, 14-14-2, 4-14-3 

3 plank (wooden u/f) old round ended  8 TONS                                 14-16-1, 5-6-0, 5-8-3,

3 plank (wooden u/f) dropside                 8 TONS                                14-11-3, 5-7-0, 5-10-0

4/5-plank (wooden u/f)                              8 TONS, 9 TONS                 5-10-1, 5-10-2, 5-10-3, 5-11-0, 5-11-1, 5-11-2, 15-11-3, 5-12-0

                                                                                                                     5-14-0, 5-14-1, 5-14-2, 15-14-3, 15-15-0, 5-15-1, 5-15-2, 5-15-3, 5-16-0, 5-12-2

5-plank (steel u/f)                                      10 TONS                                5-5-0, 5-5-1, 5-5-2, 5-5-3, 5-6-0, 5-6-1, 5-6-2, 5-6-3

6-7-plank (steel u/f)                                  10 TONS                                 5-7-0, 5-7-1, 5-7-2, 5-7-3

Covered wagon (wooden u/f)                   8 TONS, 10 TONS              6-5-0, 6-5-1, 6-5-2, 6-5-3, 6-11-0, 6-15-3

Covered wagon  (steel u/f)                       10 TONS                               6-10-0, 6-10-3   

                                                                                            

Notes:

 

In general, prototype examples given suggest that the tare weights could be quite divergent, especially in the range of hundredweights, between wagons of the same diagram, even batch.  Thus, I think my ranges are quite conservative. 

 

I have amended the short 1860s wagon weights and added some bolster wagons.

 

Looking at small wooden covered wagons, I'm reasonably happy with the original weights, but van options are not settled, so I've allowed for them to be larger and heavier and I have included the option of a steel u/f version. 

 

Hope this is good enough to consider going to print.

And I've carefully filed this new Tare Weight list away too.  Thank you very much James.

[Regularity]

12 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

It is naive in the extreme to suppose that decisions such as these are freely made, informed and democratic. 

Yes, it would be, but we don’t actually practice true and open democracy.

 

What we have is a form of “government by consent”, where we elect individual members of parliament who themselves form an electoral college (usually along Party lines) to create a Government with policies based on the somewhat egregious concept of “we put that in our manifesto - vote for one big concept and you get the little ones, too”. There is a degree of scrutiny via select committees and a free press.

 

We then leave them to it for 5 years.

 

That’s not a democracy: it’s a republic, with a small “r”. The hereditary nature of the “Head of State” and appointed second chamber are simply the result of historical evolution and don’t alter the nature of the Executive and Legislature - even the Judiciary is appointed by the republic.

 

Whilst I agree that a number system based on 12 rather than 10 would be more flexible, the fact is that the most common total number of fingers and thumbs for human beings is 10, and measurements based of the arithmetic of that base are more congruent and indeed essential when dealing with the very big and the very small - getting below (say) 1/128” or above a few million miles, for example. And the other problem with organic measurements is inconsistency. Even now, the USA uses 2,000lbs as the definition of a ton.

 

That said, there are legacies of different counting systems littered everywhere, in the names given to numbers (eleven and twelve in English, up to 16 in French, 4x20 in French for 80) 60 minutes in an hour and 24 hours in a day.

 

Since all of our imperial measurements are defined with reference to SI units now, it mostly doesn’t matter, but as for counting systems, we all know that there are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those that don’t...

 

All of which is no reason for us not to howl at the moon occasionally!

[Annie]

26 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

It's all rather Paternalist, and the attitude of the political, administrative and scientific elite during the Covid-19 crisis has been quite obviously to treat us like children, even while demonstrating that they did not necessarily know best.

I think I'm going to give up on following news reports about COVID-19.  At present it's all starting to descend into nasty political infighting between those who are demanding what the band should play and those who are rearranging the deck chairs while the ship goes down.

[Northroader]

A Hundredweight is 112 lb., or a twentieth of a ton of 2240lb, a quarter of a hundredweight is 28lb., or two stones of 14 lb. each. What could be more simple than that? Metrication? Pah!!!  They never seem to want to metricate time, do they?? Eh?? Blasted foreigners!!!

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Northroader said:

They never seem to want to metricate time, do they?? 

 

I'll get back to you on that one in a few kiloseconds.

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Whilst I agree that a number system based on 12 rather than 10 would be more flexible, the fact is that the most common total number of fingers and thumbs for human beings is 10,

 

Never lived in the Fens, then?

 

hat .. coat...

 

 

[Regularity]

38 minutes ago, Northroader said:

A Hundredweight is 112 lb., or a twentieth of a ton of 2240lb, a quarter of a hundredweight is 28lb., or two stones of 14 lb. each. What could be more simple than that? Metrication? Pah!!!  They never seem to want to metricate time, do they?? Eh?? Blasted foreigners!!!

Why is it called a hundred, if it’s 112?

Even in base 12, that’s 94.