Castle Aching

[Caley Jim]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

....

(feel fee to correct and add examples)

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From at least the early 1880's the Caledonian applied 'C  R' in either 9", 12" or 15" high letters to all wagons which had a deep enough side.  Slatted vehicles (cattle wagons etc.) had an infill between two slats to accommodate the letter.  Prior to this date small letters in a script form appear to have been used.  Wagon numbers were painted on the side or solebar until the introduction of cast plates on the solebar in Drummond's time, though some mineral wagons had them painted as well as the plate.  The number was also painted on either end (fixed end only on end door mineral wagons).

 

Jim

[St Enodoc]

In the wagon livery discussion nobody seems to have mentioned so-called "illiteracy marks". Does the WNR use these?

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

In the wagon livery discussion nobody seems to have mentioned so-called "illiteracy marks". Does the WNR use these?

 

Well, as a railway in existence from the late 1850s, it might have done.  Nice idea.

 

I would guess that, by the early 1880s it had start to apply its W.N.R initials. 

 

What might such an illiteracy mark look like for the WNR?

[Caley Jim]

28 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

In the wagon livery discussion nobody seems to have mentioned so-called "illiteracy marks". Does the WNR use these?

There was an article in the HMRS journal some time ago which presented a very strong case for these being more 'trade marks'.  Remember most railway company employees would be fairly literate as they had to be able to read the rule book and, in the case of guards, station and yard staff, record wagon numbers, contents, etc.  Similar marks were used before the days of railways by traders to identify their own sacks, tea chests, crates, barrels, etc.

 

Jim

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

There was an article in the HMRS journal some time ago which presented a very strong case for these being more 'trade marks'.  Remember most railway company employees would be fairly literate as they had to be able to read the rule book and, in the case of guards, station and yard staff, record wagon numbers, contents, etc.  Similar marks were used before the days of railways by traders to identify their own sacks, tea chests, crates, barrels, etc.

 

Jim

Yes and no Jim. I concur that these were probably not "illiteracy marks",hence my use of the term "so-called", but it was not a requirement for staff to be able read the rules themselves. In fact, right up until the 1980s the rules had to be read aloud to staff twice a year (although I think that this was often honoured more in the breach than the observance).

[Andy Hayter]

There is a strong misunderstanding about illiteracy even today.  There are very large tracts of the population who even today cannot read or cannot read properly.  It is estimated that about 10% of todays population in modern educated countries suffer.  How many more in the late 1800s when a proportion would have had very limited schooling or in some cases none at all.  

It is also important to remember that while the railways may have cherry picked workers who were better educated, they interacted directly with people who did not enjoy such selection - non-railway carters being the most obvious who would need to be directed to a wagon for loading/unloading.   So yes I can see the trade mark agreement but equally this provides a mark understood by those who had issues with reading.  

[Edwardian]

What then, is the purpose of a "trademark" if not to signify ownership without the need to use writing and, therefore, for it to be understood?

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

What then, is the purpose of a "trademark" if not to signify ownership without the need to use writing and, therefore, for it to be understood?

Not so different from a red-and-white striped pole outside a barber's or a pawnbroker's balls really - or even a red cross on an ambulance.

[Edwardian]

25 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Not so different from a red-and-white striped pole outside a barber's or a pawnbroker's balls really - or even a red cross on an ambulance.

 

Much as I was thinking, or, indeed, road signs that use symbols.

 

Ease and speed of recognition is achieved through using familiar symbols, regardless of whether there is an illiterate portion of the audience. 

[Nearholmer]

Totally agree; I’ve long been deeply suspicious of the “illiteracy” label.

 

One doesn’t really “read” the initials on wagons, one recognises them, they are symbols in just the same way that a Staffordshire knot is. And, in almost every application where accurate and swift recognition is needed, symbols are used instead of text, because (provided they are well designed) we recognise and process them far quicker.

 

Relatively small, low contrast, and sometimes florid, initials are poor-quality symbols, too easily confused or misinterpreted, but that has nothing much to do with wether the “reader” is literate or not. 

 

Long, verbose labels are notably absent on aircraft instruments, power station control panels etc.

 

The change to big letters was probably at least in part an attempt to aid shunters, who had to work in “hours of darkness, fog and falling snow”, but was actually suboptimal from their perspective (down on the ballast, in the p@ssing rain), which is why lettering was rationalised in the late 1930s, to put all key data in one “hand lamp beam area” at shunters’ Head height.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[ianathompson]

11 hours ago, Edwardian said:

What might such an illiteracy mark look like for the WNR?

 

How about a webbed foot (as on a duck)?

[Nearholmer]

Although, I suppose that it might get mistaken for a grenado.

[Andy Hayter]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

What then, is the purpose of a "trademark" if not to signify ownership without the need to use writing and, therefore, for it to be understood?

 

Except that the majority of trade marks are writing - albeit often stylised as for example the Kellogg's logo - and sometimes with an associated pictorial logo. The key point about "illiteracy marks" is that many (but not all) gave no indication of ownership to anyone not in the know.  

[Jim15B]

14 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well, as a railway in existence from the late 1850s, it might have done.  Nice idea.

 

I would guess that, by the early 1880s it had start to apply its W.N.R initials. 

 

What might such an illiteracy mark look like for the WNR?

The silhouette of a dodo maybe? Or a pyramid?

[Martin S-C]

On 07/05/2019 at 22:56, Compound2632 said:

 

The Great Western version, rescued from a beat-up model from the Kirk kit that I was fortunate to be given:

 

Very nice. I appear to have picked up an Ian Kirk kit in complete ignorance off e-Bay about a year ago. It looks like this one has been mounted on a Dapol or other RTR chassis. When I saw it I knew it was an old GW design, I had no idea who the manufacturer was though, I bought it simply because it was unusual.

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Although, I suppose that it might get mistaken for a grenado.

 

Looks more like

 

 

The Summoning Dark to me.....

[Martin S-C]

4 hours ago, Jim15B said:

The silhouette of a dodo maybe? Or a pyramid?

To shamelessly steal one of Annie's wagon pictures (sorry Annie!)

 

[RedGemAlchemist]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Totally agree; I’ve long been deeply suspicious of the “illiteracy” label.

 

One doesn’t really “read” the initials on wagons, one recognises them, they are symbols in just the same way that a Staffordshire knot is. And, in almost every application where accurate and swift recognition is needed, symbols are used instead of text, because (provided they are well designed) we recognise and process them far quicker.

 

Relatively small, low contrast, and sometimes florid, initials are poor-quality symbols, too easily confused or misinterpreted, but that has nothing much to do with wether the “reader” is literate or not. 

 

Long, verbose labels are notably absent on aircraft instruments, power station control panels etc.

 

The change to big letters was probably at least in part an attempt to aid shunters, who had to work in “hours of darkness, fog and falling snow”, but was actually suboptimal from their perspective (down on the ballast, in the p@ssing rain), which is why lettering was rationalised in the late 1930s, to put all key data in one “hand lamp beam area” at shunters’ Head height.

Hmm. Interesting. Didn't know that. 

[Annie]

Nice, - I like that Martin.  I could do some wagons like that for my own rambling little empire if James gives the nod.  Might need to pick an older one that isn't piped through for continuous automatic brakes though.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Very nice. I appear to have picked up an Ian Kirk kit in complete ignorance off e-Bay about a year ago. It looks like this one has been mounted on a Dapol or other RTR chassis. When I saw it I knew it was an old GW design, I had no idea who the manufacturer was though, I bought it simply because it was unusual.

 

That looks like the Kirk u/f to me - these wagons were built with iron solebars. Compare the photo of mine posted earlier; definitely Kirk from the axgleguard keepers up.

 

Mine did start out with the oil axleboxes, which are a bit too much on the chunky side, but I nibbled away at them to get a representation of the Great Western's rather plain grease boxes.

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Totally agree; I’ve long been deeply suspicious of the “illiteracy” label.

 

One doesn’t really “read” the initials on wagons, one recognises them.

 

 

What two letters spell perfection? (With apologies to JA, who wasn't quite right on this one but has the excuse that it was after her time.)

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

To shamelessly steal one of Annie's wagon pictures (sorry Annie!)

 

 

A Dodo silhouette would look good too...

 

Bass beer might have a thing about the WNR using a hollow triangle, but Triang wouldn't be a problem....

 

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Looks more like

 

 

The Summoning Dark to me.....

 

The artist formerly known as Hroth

 

1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

To shamelessly steal one of Annie's wagon pictures (sorry Annie!)

 

 

That says "A Squadron" to me.

 

(very nice it is, too)

 

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What two letters spell perfection? (With apologies to JA, who wasn't quite right on this one but has the excuse that it was after her time.)

 

I don't know, "G&T" seems to have 3. 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

What two letters spell perfection?.....

That's a no brainer!!   CR of course!  

 

Jim

[Regularity]

9 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

That's a no brainer!!   CR of course!  

 

Jim

I didn’t know you modelled Welsh railways, Jim...