Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

Interesting replies, thanks Gents.

 

James,

 

Your point about what constituted a a "win" I think go to the core of it, and to another thing that has bugged me, which is what "conquest" really constituted in an age of poor communication. My thinking is that "conquest", or even simply "rule", were often not very "deep" things, often leaving great swathes of the territory untouched and much of the population possibly oblivious, at least in the short term.

 

I guess the question about a "win" is exactly why/how that benefited the "winner", and their could be multiple answers to that.

 

Not much to so with the WNR, but uniformed people keep cropping-up!

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

Interesting replies, thanks Gents.

 

James,

 

Your point about what constituted a a "win" I think go to the core of it, and to another thing that has bugged me, which is what "conquest" really constituted in an age of poor communication. My thinking is that "conquest", or even simply "rule", were often not very "deep" things, often leaving great swathes of the territory untouched and much of the population possibly oblivious, at least in the short term.

 

I guess the question about a "win" is exactly why/how that benefited the "winner", and their could be multiple answers to that.

 

Not much to so with the WNR, but uniformed people keep cropping-up!

 

Kevin

 

Blame the fact that my entire model making over a 4-month period has been on a military building!

 

Conflicts often end without a military "win". Conventional versus irregular forces equals stalemate, often resolved by a political solution representing compromise that reflects the fact that no decisive military outcome is possible.  I suggest that Pre-Grouping examples experienced by the British would include the Second Boer War and Irish independence. Sometimes wider events end an inconclusive irregular war that neither side can bring to a conclusion, e.g. Von Lettow Vorbeck in East Africa, still at large at the Armistice in 1918.

 

What is a "win"? An interesting example is the North West frontier of British India.  General uprisings among the usually warring tribes were rare and, even then, they were no threat to the security of British India. In 1897-8 control of the Khyber Pass was lost for a time.  Embarrassing, but absent a Russian Army waiting to traverse it (feared with some cause in 1885 and later imagined by John Buchan), not actually more than a local issue.  Outlying forts were attacked and some fell, but no garrison town was seriously threatened.  

 

Generally it was the case of an individual tribe breaching the peace. When this happened, a punitive expedition was mounted. While ten cents jezail bullets ended many a ten thousand pound education, ultimately the army's progress could not be halted. Villages were burned and weapons confiscated.  These were the victory conditions, and generally they achieved a period of good behaviour for the next few years, yet the ground, whichever side of the border, could not be held and the "victorious" troops were invariably fired upon as they withdrew!  

[corneliuslundie]

Going back several centuries, the English had great trouble with Owain Glyndwr because he avoided pitched battles - which he would not win - and used guerrilla tactics, with the mountains as his base. When the English were defeated, it was usually by the Welsh weather and the difficulty of maintaining long supply lines through unfriendly territory. Eventually the English won, but only after a long slog and because various of Glyndwr's allies changed sides for political reasons. Incidentally, the whole thing started because a neighbour, the Earl of Chester, a nasty piece of work, wanted to usurp Glyndwr's family's lands.

On the principle of pitched battles, I have always felt that the best way to handle disagreements is using champions. One has to be honourable and accept the decision, but it leaves fewest people dead, doesn't ruin the lives of those over whose land the battles are fought and gives a clear victory. Unfortunately it seems to have gone out of fashion rather early.

Hedges and ditches. Yes, with added barbed wire a formidable barrier. I remember fleeing some rather too curious cows somewhere near the Talyllyn Railway and having to cross such a boundary.

I am pretty sure that the side on which the supports are still designates ownership/responsibility, but I am not sure what happens with those fences which have pre-assembled panels between the posts so that the posts are not on one side or the other.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

It seems to me that many of the key pitched battles - Waterloo and the Battle of Britain, in their different ways, are my prime exhibits - were exercises in not losing, rather than winning. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

I think it's a case that one of the adjacent owners often owns and is responsible for the boundary feature. This should be marked on the deeds. Logically, if not legally, this owner erects the fence facing outward from his land, thus with the fence posts on the 'inside'.

[Edwardian]

It seems to me that many of the key battles - Waterloo and the Battle of Britain, in their different ways, are my prime exhibits - were exercises in not losing, rather than winning. 

 

Winning by not losing has much to recommend it.  

[Caley Jim]

On the subject of fencing (and thus getting dangerously close to being on topic) around here most fencing has wooden posts with sheep netting and a strand of barbed wire at the top, but just recently I've noticed a few being renewed with galvanised metal posts.

 

as far as railway fences go, a common type up here was made from old sleepers set on end with the bottom 3 feet or so buried.  A horizontal strap running along about a foot from the top tied the tops together.

 

The tops could either be plain, pointed,

 

Or chamfered,

 

this being either on one side or both.

 

Another arrangement was 'castellated' where the tops of alternate sleepers were about 6" lower.

 

Where they ran down the slope of an embankment or cutting, the tops were stepped

 

I have modelled such a fence on Kirkallanmuir (third photo down the post) as they were so typical of the area.

 

Jim

[uax6]

Around West Norfolk the M&GN used concrete posts, home made I presume, and many are still standing. Would the WNR have bought stocks from the M&GN?

 

Andy G

[Nearholmer]

The famous manager of the M&GN (Marriott?) was a famous pioneer of pre-cast concrete, not just for railway applications, so I reckon the WNR would have struggled NOT to buy them ...... but do the dates work? When did the M&GN open their concrete works?

[uax6]

In 1883 he was appointed to the E&MR as Engineer, the LNER Cycle says that the concrete works started in the early 20th century...

 

Andy G

[Martin S-C]

It seems to me that many of the key pitched battles - Waterloo and the Battle of Britain, in their different ways, are my prime exhibits - were exercises in not losing, rather than winning. 

Absolutely. In both cases Britain (and atwaterloo, her Allies) simply had to stay around and not lose. Winning was optional, or rather, by not losing the other side could not win, and both Napoleon and the Luftwaffe NEEDED to win. This is often the logic of a defensive position, e.g. Rorke's Drift. Just sitting there doing as little as possible means the opponent loses.

[phil_sutters]

Injected into the thread to show that one has to dry brush your static grass with a straw colour to tone it down, not because it has anything to do with Napoleonic warfare.

[Martin S-C]

...and just to show that pedantry is alive and well in military modelling as well as in railway modelling - no regiment of the 1815 Armee du Nord had battle honours on its colours. All the flags were produced in a huge hurry and were the most boring and basic tricoleurs ever carried by any of Napoleon's armies.

[phil_sutters]

...and just to show that pedantry is alive and well in military modelling as well as in railway modelling - no regiment of the 1815 Armee du Nord had battle honours on its colours. All the flags were produced in a huge hurry and were the most boring and basic tricoleurs ever carried by any of Napoleon's armies.

That rarely bothered wargamers in the 1980s when these were painted. The renowned painter and wargamer, Bill Brewer of the South London Warlords, certainly never raised that as an issue, when I painted for him. I did quite a lot of standards for him. He could knock out regiments quite quickly, yet at a high quality, but his productivity and thus earnings dropped with the fiddly bits, so I got to do knights with their arms on shields and caparisons,crests on their helms and huge banners and other one-off items. I didn't mind because I was doing the work more as a hobby than a source of income..

 

Had I been asked for the plainer 1815 campaign style, I could have saved myself the bother of dabbing on the lines of gold blobs suggesting lettering. Mind you, I guess that I would have had to saw off the staff above the hand and built a new standard without the bullion fringing, as I can't see that would have been bothered with either..

Edited January 3, 2019 by phil_sutters

[Edwardian]

...and just to show that pedantry is alive and well in military modelling as well as in railway modelling - no regiment of the 1815 Armee du Nord had battle honours on its colours. All the flags were produced in a huge hurry and were the most boring and basic tricoleurs ever carried by any of Napoleon's armies.

 

I'll admit, I've not gone back to the sources, but here is a site that describes and reproduces for gamers 1815 pattern French standards: http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/fran1815.htm

 

Not so plain, apparently: "Sources vary as to whether the French 1815 pattern flags possessed a fringe. Most regiments displayed the same battle honours as for the 1812 pattern and the gold-embroidered tricolour cravat was still attached immediately below the eagle".  

 

Now to some extent and for some units the reconstruction will be conjectural, though we do have some captured infantry colours, e.g. the eagle of the 45th Ligne at Edinburgh.  

 

Here the guidons of the 2 Carabinier Regts. show quite a lot of gold embroidery and fringing and the pre-1812 battle honours: Austerlitz, Jena, Eylau, Friedland and Wagram: http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/fr1815_c3.htm

 

Clearer images are found here: http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/uniformes_uniteFR.php?uniformes=41&drapeau=.  EDIT: The link takes you to the first squadron of the 1st Regt. When you get there you may need to click on the tab at upper left labelled état-major de l'escadron in order to see the flag. Note the depiction of a blue habit-veste for campaign. I confess, I'd not seen that before. Generally I find that many uniform interpretations are different now to those found in my father's 1970s Napoleonic library. 

 

Now, both sites may be making the same assumptions or mistakes, and I have checked no sources, but on the face of it, I'd say that in overall appearance, at scale, it would be hard to fault Phil's guidon!

 

The painting is superb. 

 

EDIT: Typos.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Edwardian

[St Enodoc]

Live in Hope, die in Castleton

 

...and in between drink at the Nag's Head in Edale.

[St Enodoc]

He’s Kevin.

 

B4B6C363-BF86-4A74-9319-D866FFFB7F61.jpeg

 

He's Sam - or Kevin in disguise.

[St Enodoc]

Winning by not losing has much to recommend it.  

 

In cricket, that would be a draw.

[TheQ]

In cricket, that would be a draw.

you only need to win one match in a test series and not lose the rest...

[phil_sutters]

Where will this forum go next?????

[Edwardian]

Where will this forum go next?????

 

Back to something more relevant (for once!)

 

David Eveleigh has made progress on the 6-wheel GER coaches, and has other interesting developments.  He has asked me to post the following news: 

 

I have finished the drawings now for the GER six wheeled coaches which people requested earlier in the year and they are ready for sending to the etchers for having test etches done.   They will be looking at these after Christmas and I hope to have them in my hands in what is still described as 'spring'.   I have designed kits for seven different six wheeled coach kits:  D404 Third,  D219 Luggage Composite,  D514 Brake Third,  D516 Full Brake,  D110 Lavatory Composite,  D10 Third Saloon and D105 First.

 

I have also adjusted my drawing for the Long Melford girder bridge, as seen on my website at http://eveleighcreations.com/etch-design/ to provide a 4 mm scale version.   This allows for a clear span between abutments of 48 ft.   The original bridge was designed for single track however, so for a double track railway should be adjusted to remove the two centre panels.   The design is somewhat complex as the real girder was subtly curved along its top edge (as well as the flange plating being doubled and re-doubled, but I have done my best to make the assembly as straightforward as possible, labelling all of the individually dimensioned ribs and handrail supports.

 

I am thinking in the new year of adapting my drawings of the Wisbech tram coaches (both the four wheeled and bogie versions) in the light of a ready to run tram engine appearing.   My etch design is unique in that the characteristic 'hogging' (sagging down at the ends and up in the middle) of the real coaches is reproduced.   You can see the 2 mm scale examples here  http://eveleighcreations.com/test-page-2/models-made-from-my-etched-kits/

 

I would be interested in any expressions of interest in any of the three sets of items.

 

EDIT: A picture of David's splendid Long Melford bridge in 2mm scale. I believe the bridge is extant, boarded over to provide a footway.  Assuming I have the correct place, Long Melford in Suffolk boasted a fine example of the GER "1865" style of station (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/long_melford/).  Assuming the bridge to be contemporary, that would make it fit well with the Achingham Branch. Hmmm ....

Edited January 3, 2019 by Edwardian

[Northroader]

That’s all very well if you’re modelling in 2mm or 4mm. (Sniff!)

[Edwardian]

That’s all very well if you’re modelling in 2mm or 4mm. (Sniff!)

 

In 7mm scale it would be longer than your layout!

[Northroader]

I wasn’t bothered about the bridge, it’s the GER coach sides making me sit up, although when you take in his etched sheets done in 2mm, the whole lot are very delectable.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Northroader

[Caley Jim]

I wasn’t bothered about the bridge, it’s the GER coach sides making me sit up, although when you take in his etched sheets done in 2mm, the whole lot are very delectable.

You could always buy a sheet, frame it and put it on the wall as a piece of art!   

 

Jim