Castle Aching

[webbcompound]

I don't think you'd get even the smallest Mersey Flat up the Chester Canal, given that the nominal beam of the canal locks is 14ft,  I've seen two trad narrowboats stuck in Christleton lock before today.  I'm also surprised that they would attempt passage between the Mersey and the Dee, it can get pretty tricky out there!

What people did with their ships and boats then was a lot more risky than they would be now. Flats ran slates from Port Dinorwick near Conwy to Liverpool, and one was sunk at the mouth of the Dee in a collision with a coaster. I doubt the men sailing in Norfolk waters were any more risk-averse than those in the NW so these boats would appear in places that surprise us now. This flat is aground on the Dee at Chester.

[Donw]

Excellent news James.

 

Thames Barges had a very shallow draft to go up the various creeks and beach to load with hay or other produce then float off at the next high tide. One such Creek was at Great Wigbury. My great grandfather was a labourer on a farm there he saw the barges and thought that looks a better life and left on a barge. They were not therefore ideal on open waters but may have been useful at somewhere like Wells Next the Sea as they would be able to leave sooner on a rising tide or return later on an ebbing tide.

 

Young Zak Bond decided to use Acetylene to light his coaches on his 16mm garden railway. Unfortunately he was not aware of the issue with Acetylene and copper . No the was no explosion but it was a concern when someone pointed it out.

 

Is this the Dutch barge at Wells 

[RedGemAlchemist]

Congratulations! Finally the nightmare seems to be over for you.

[Annie]

Congratulations James what tremendous news.  Now you can have yourself a well deserved and worry free Christmas.

[Charlie586]

Congratulations, you must be very relieved.

[wagonman]

I'm not in any way decrying your research and knowledge of Norfolk wagonman, just adding to it with regard to some of the other general comments that were made about sail being defunct by 1900. The schooner Kathleen and May is 137 tons, and was pretty big as far as coastal trade was concerned, most of the schooners calling along the West coast were smaller, being two mast, not three.

 

 

The coastal schooners and ketches of the West Country were different again with several of them trading into the 1930s at least, though by that time they had had motors fitted and their rig reduced.

 

Likewise the Severn estuary had its own distinctive vessels such as the Severn Trows.

 

But we  mustn't discount the possibility of an occasional sailing ship tying up at Achingham Staith...

[Martin S-C]

Fantastic news James. I am very happy for you. From bitter experience of having to hang on a long house-selling chain I know how you might feel right now.

[Shadow]

 

Alexandra Docks at Kings Lynn in 1869 (http://www.kingslynnonline.com/2014/04/lynns-port-and-railways-a-weekend-of-heritage)

 

Also lots more images here :-

 

kings-lynn-docks-branch-part-2

 

Edit :- Just found out that Roger Farnworth (author of above site) has a thread here on RMWeb

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137599-kings-lynn

Edited December 14, 2018 by Shadow

[Northroader]

[Andy Hayter]

The coastal schooners and ketches of the West Country were different again with several of them trading into the 1930s at least, though by that time they had had motors fitted and their rig reduced.

 

Likewise the Severn estuary had its own distinctive vessels such as the Severn Trows.

 

But we  mustn't discount the possibility of an occasional sailing ship tying up at Achingham Staith...

 

Regional solutions to regional problems.

 

The problem with shallow draught barges is that they cannot have a fixed keel - the sticky out fin below a pond yacht.  The keel provides resistance against the wind just pushing a sailing boat downwind, instead of in the direction it is pointed.

 

The Thames barge solved this with leeboards dropped over the side and raised and lowered according to the depth of water.  In comparison the \Norfolk wherry was required to work in even shallower water, where even leeboards would be ineffective.  The solution was to extend the rudder by several feet and provide a combined keel/rudder.  Less effective than leeboards, the wherry carried less sail than a Thames barge - a mainsail only whereas the Thames barge would also carry a topsail and foresail or even perhaps a spinaker.

 

The Humber sloop was a further distinct barge variant with a sail akin to a Viking longboat.  This maximised the ability to utilise slack winds but had other disadvantages.

[wagonman]

Excellent news James.

 

 

Is this the Dutch barge at Wells 

 

 

Yes that is the Albatros, though I'd not call it a barge... Probably the last vessel to bring a commercial cargo into Wells – and definitely the last to do it under sail. Actually she motored up the channel but did part of the journey from Rotterdam under sail.

 

Let me add to the chorus of congratulations for James!

[wagonman]

 

Here is a shot of the quay at Blakeney in the 1880s. The Bluejacket is at the front of the line.

Edited December 14, 2018 by wagonman

[Hroth]

What people did with their ships and boats then was a lot more risky than they would be now. Flats ran slates from Port Dinorwick near Conwy to Liverpool, and one was sunk at the mouth of the Dee in a collision with a coaster. I doubt the men sailing in Norfolk waters were any more risk-averse than those in the NW so these boats would appear in places that surprise us now. This flat is aground on the Dee at Chester.

PC140042.JPG

Thats an interesting photo, any idea when it was taken?

 

The vessel is not just aground, its perched at the top of the downstream face of the weir, the photo was taken with a long focus lens from the Dee Bridge, hence the compression of distances.  From left to right:  The wall with the houses on top is the city wall, out of shot to the left is Bridge Street and probably the Dee Mills (depending on the age of the photo) which would explain the presence of the vessel, which was probably carrying grain to the mill.The road at the foot of the wall is the Groves, which nowadays extends past the wall mid-picture.  The church is St Johns, which was the Cathedral before the Dissolution of the Abbeys. Out of shot to the right is the site of the suspension bridge, which may not have been erected at the time of the photo!  I can't work out if the small boats on the river bank are hire skiffs for visitors, or salmon boats.

 

The other thing is that I don't think its a Flat, but an ordinary canal barge that would work the Chester Canal from Ellesmere Port to Nantwich. It looks too small for a flat, and there doesn't appear to be any provision for stepping a mast in front of the cargo hold.  As I said, it probably carried grain for the mill, coming from Ellesmere Port and locking down to the Dee using the Dee branch of the Chester Canal. It looks as if its been carried upstream by a strong tide, through the Dee Bridge and deposited on top of the weir.

 

As I said, all that depends on the age of the photo, though the mill worked until the 1890s before burning down.

 

https://www.chesterwalls.info/gallery/bridge2.html

[figworthy]

The Humber sloop was a further distinct barge variant with a sail akin to a Viking longboat.  This maximised the ability to utilise slack winds but had other disadvantages.

 

The Humber sloop was a gaff rigged vessel, the Humber Keel was square rigged.  Basically the same hull, but with a different rig.

 

Humber Keel

 

Humber Sloop

 

Adrian

[Compound2632]

 

Alexandra Docks at Kings Lynn in 1869 

 

 

 

Some interesting wagons there - dumb-buffered PO wagons serving J.T. Cook's coal depot. sprung buffered company wagons by the tranship shed (if that's what it is?) A higher-resolution print would be good to see.

[phil_sutters]

Sailing coasters still plied the Severn and Bristol Channel into the 1930s. Chris Handley's The Maritime Activities of the Somerset & Dorset Railway has pictures of them visiting Highbridge Wharf and Bridgwater. This is my conversion of a 1/87th HMS Beagle. There are numerous things I could have done better, but it gives an overall impression of the little ships that were the HGVs of the era. It is surprisingly hard to find a reasonably priced model sailing ship suitable to use with a small scale harbour scene in 4mm.

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by phil_sutters

[Shadow]

Norfolk Picture Library search for Alexandra Docks

 

#4 Shows some steam boats/vessels in the 1890's at the West End of Alexandra Docks at Kings Lynn

[Shadow]

Also came across these grounded coaches on the Kings-Lynn forum site (lots of other Dock/Railway images as well)

 

www.kingslynn-forums.co.uk  (near end of page)

Edited December 15, 2018 by Shadow

[drmditch]

Many congratulations on the house sale.

 

As regards different 'sails', I think that the sailing barges (as in spritsail barges) and ketch-barges with their flat bottoms and lee boards were quite weatherly vessels. The last of them were/ was still trading into the 1960's, before starting a new life as much loved recreational ships.

 

The last of the collier brigs (the 'geordie' brigs) 'Remembrance' went down of the Suffolk coast in 1904.

 

There are also accounts from WW2 of convoys of barges and other vessels, having come out of the Tyne under tow, being attacked by aircraft and fast motor boats.

I have seen one piece of video of one of the big Everard sisters (200 ton steel barges) that went to Dunkirk and didn't come back, aground on Dunkirk sands with her sails flogging and shredded.

 

Although perhaps not the most horrible of the obscenities of war, the destruction of sailing vessels by submarines, aircraft, and motor-boats does have a terrible sadness about it.

 

Dark thoughts for the dark days at the end of the year.

 

However, the world turns and moves on. May your bright bows beat bravely to windward in the fresh breezes of the New Year.

(Although I might wait for a bit. My days of winter sailing are done - for now!)

 

Alternatively, to get back to thread, - May your locomotives steam (at least in simulation), may your signal lamps gleam, and may your trucks run true into the New Year!

 

Pre- seasonal greetings to everybody!

[cornamuse]

Excellent news about the house. Does it include extensive railway space?

[Hroth]

Sailing coasters still plied the Severn and Bristol Channel into the 1930s. Chris Handley's The Maritime Activities of the Somerset & Dorset Railway has pictures of them visiting Highbridge Wharf and Bridgwater. This is my conversion of a 1/87th HMS Beagle. There are numerous things I could have done better, but it gives an overall impression of the little ships that were the HGVs of the era. It is surprisingly hard to find a reasonably priced model sailing ship suitable to use with a small scale harbour scene in 4mm.

 

Four Sisters New Wharf Old Brue Quay.jpg

Four Sisters Old Brue Quay.jpg

Conversation on Four Sisters New Wharf Old Brue Quay.jpg

What an excellent model.

 

It would do well as the basis of a "Prid of Ankh-Morpork" too...

[brack]

Several of the Thames barges at Dunkirk were deliberately filled with stores and grounded earlier in operations (before dynamo). When they realised they needed to evacuate I think they managed to refloat a couple and get home on them.

When the call went out for little ships to evacuate the BEF another dozen or so Thames barges made the trip.

[Shadow]

https://norfolk.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRN/PICNOR/HOME?HOMEPRMS=NORPICPARAMS

 

Been looking on the Norfolk Picture Library site again!

 

Entered a search for "railway" and a date of "< 1930" and came up with 116 images.

 

#61 is of the 12th Lancers boarding a train for training before going out to the front 1914.

#65 is Stoke Ferry, railway station and National Poultry Organization Society premises. The NPOS are using a grounded coach as their premises at the station.

#108 is Norwich, Thorpe Station, Norfolk Regiment boarding.

 

Worth looking if you've got the time!

[Nearholmer]

Well, I went straight for that Stoke Ferry image, and it is an absolute cracker!

 

I wonder how they organized (notably with a "z") poultry? Did they have hens assemble in serid ranks, or, in the case of Buff Orpingtons, pale battalions? Or, were they housed in order of size, or perhaps the subject of a decimal classification system?

 

It merits a diorama all to itself.

[Northroader]

Wonder who the old carriage had belonged to?