Castle Aching

[martinT]

Probably the most photographed were the extensions at Minehead which were used to turn GWR Moguls on the 45ft turntable until the end of steam on the line in 1964. Without searching too hard the best set of photos & description of their use can be found in Ian Coleby's 'The Minehead Branch 1848-1971' (Lightmoor Press). Another photo is in Eddie Lyons 'An Historical Survey of GWR Engine Sheds 1947' (OPC). (The GW's 1938 plan to install a 60ft TT was scuppered by WW2 & never brought to fruition by BR)

 

Martin

 

... and here's an online photo from Stephen Edge's excellent unofficial WSR website, this time showing Bulldog 3444 Cormorant in 1946: http://www.wsr.org.uk/oldpix/md_pd.jpg   The significant thing is that it is always the tender that is 'up in the air'

 

Martin

[Edwardian]

Thanks for the tops. Chaps; don't varnish unless you can varnish both sides.  Willco.

 

 

Most of this Midland stuff goes well over my head I know little of the details. Rumour has it that Johnson built so many different ones because they needed two to pull a decent train    Rumour probably started by Crewe.

 

As it is are you proposing to have a Midland Engine arriving at CA or is it hoping something Midland could be made into M&GN?   

 

Don 

 

Generally Joint locos would take over at, say, Bourne.  So a Midland train from, say, Leicester, would arrive at CA behind a Joint loco, for which duty a C Class 4-4-0 (essentially a Johnson Midland 1808 Class in M&GN livery)  would be appropriate.  If it fails, one of the Midland locos that needed to work on the Western section from time to time could take over - e.g. a Johnson 2-4-0.

 

 

Can I slip in a tale about turning a loco on a turntable, which is apposite, but it happened in County Durham, very close to where you're domiciled, rather than Norfolk. It's usual for the guy who set the valve gear after overhaul to get the treat of a trial trip, but on this occasion as it was a lovely sunny day our chargehand pulled rank, and decided he'd go. It was on a Q6, a big old NER 0-8-0 loco., and off they went up to Barney. Stop in the station, and back into the corner where the turntable was, (and always enough time to nip into the Red Well for a quickie) Trouble was the loco had had a minimal coaling in the works yard, just enough for the trip, and on the table it wouldn't balance well enough, all the weight one end, and too much effort to push, so they decided to come back tender first. But then the weather turned, they came back through heavy rain, so poor old Bill came in the shop totally wet, and great glee from the gang.

 

What a wonderful story.

 

The Red Well is still there. The station is gone, almost without a trace.

 

Anyway, are my Greenstuff daubings becoming any clearer?

Edited October 3, 2017 by Edwardian

[Caley Jim]

 The significant thing is that it is always the tender that is 'up in the air'

Which makes sense, since the tender will be lighter than the loco (per foot length), so the overall CG is likely to be somewhere around the firebox area.

 

Jim

 

Edited to add the bit about length

Edited October 3, 2017 by Caley Jim

[mullie]

Pott Row was built and lives in a garage that until last year it shared with an often damp car at night. After nine years the baseboards do not seem to have moved at all despite my wayward carpentry. The only possible problem is the left hand fiddle yard that may just need some fettling simply due to the amount of times it has been set up and taken down, usually at least twice a week.

 

The boards have not been varnished, the garage is well ventilated, the only heat is from the occasional use of a condenser tumble dryer and the prevailing atmosphere is salty, milder than much of the UK but due to the close proximity of the sea damper than normal.

 

Martyn

[Compound2632]

Most of this Midland stuff goes well over my head I know little of the details. Rumour has it that Johnson built so many different ones because they needed two to pull a decent train    Rumour probably started by Crewe.

 

As it is are you proposing to have a Midland Engine arriving at CA or is it hoping something Midland could be made into M&GN?   

 

Don 

 

A-hem, Crewe? double heading? double heading? double heading? Surely not. Double heading only became a feature of Midland express passenger operation in the later Edwardian era, as corridor trains with dining carriages became more widespread - leading to a significant increase in train weight per passenger and consequently, decline in profitability... It should be remembered that the Midland's supposed "small engine" policy, if it existed at all, was driven not by conservatism in the Derby drawing office but by infrastructure limitations - weight restrictions on bridges, size of turntables, ... 

 

For working Midland through carriages from the Midlands to the WNR, if not using WNR engines, we would see M&GN engines - through working of Midland engines east of Bourne was I think unknown by 1905. So the ideal engine from an aesthetic point of view (with apologies to Beyer-Peacockites) is a M&GN Class C 6'6" bogie coupled engine, identical to the Midland 1808 class engines in their original condition (in fact Derby slipped another ten for Midland use on to the end of the batch built by Beyer Peacock, needing more engines in a hurry) and externally virtually identical to the Midland 1312 class, the subject of the ancient Ratio kit.

 

So in model form the M&GN class C engines as running c 1905 can be produced either from the London Road Models kit for the 1808 class as built, or from the Ratio kit with back-dating to a Johnson front end (chimney, smokebox wrapper and door).

 

On Ian Rathbone's demonstration stand at Scaleforum were a pair of standard Johnson 0-6-0s, one in fully-lined pre-1905 Midland livery and the other equally resplendent in M&GN golden gorse - see also his online gallery, though all three M&GN engines featured there look yellower than the model seen in the flesh.

 

EDIT: to clarify sense and correct spelling in the second paragraph.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

Thanks for the tops. Chaps; don't varnish unless you can varnish both sides.  Willco.

They do sell varnish, yes, but usually it is spelt “Wilko”.

[St Enodoc]

Yes, and although I offered varnishing tips earlier, my one, never finished, EM gauge layout consisted of three plywood baseboards, all unvarnished, and was consigned to an unheated, draughty shed, but one with a sound roof, for years on end. Spiders took up residence, and even a mouse, but no rot, warp, or mould.

 

My strong belief is that the real cause of trouble is lack of free ventilation, so I prescribe plenty of fresh air and exercise for your layout.

The wearing of the kilt also helps with that.

[Londontram]

I think Caley Jim will confirm that before they had fitted larger turntables at strategic points on the system The Caledonian's new Cardean class 4-6-0 had to be split to be turned mind you with its bogie four wheel tenders they were not much shorter than a Princess.

 

 

I agree that's a beautiful shot of the loco and looking at those buildings in the back ground it looks very much like Yarmouth beach and the hotels and guest houses on the seafront. I might have a look tomorrow to see if I can match the spot up as most of the buildings are still there substantially unchanged

 

 

[Edwardian]

I think Caley Jim will confirm that before they had fitted larger turntables at strategic points on the system The Caledonian's new Cardean class 4-6-0 had to be split to be turned mind you with its bogie four wheel tenders they were not much shorter than a Princess.

 

Johnson possibly at Yarmouth beach.jpg

 

I agree that's a beautiful shot of the loco and looking at those buildings in the back ground it looks very much like Yarmouth beach and the hotels and guest houses on the seafront. I might have a look tomorrow to see if I can match the spot up as most of the buildings are still there substantially unchanged

 

Apparently Cromer Beach, c.1900.  I have no idea how that location may have changed.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Edwardian

[uax6]

A ludicrously late reply (also ludicrous, since your question was probably rhetorical...).

 

Mostly sand, but some shingle (eg, Heacham and Snettisham ("Snet" to the locals), depending on weird currents).

 

There are very significant sand deposits inland though - a 3 mile stub branch from Lynn to Ashwicken (the first part of the Lynn-Dereham, connecting Lynn and Norwich - and not recommended for the axe by the Good Doctor. We have the "saintly" Gerry Fiennes to thank for that...) survived Beeching and post-Beeching cuts as a freight-only branch.

 

Still used today - 3 or 4 trains per week - to take high-grade industrial sand for glass-making.

 

The very substantial disused quarries nearby are now vast lakes (on Google maps check out "Leziate lakes"), a deserted and delightful wilderness of silver birch, fern and pine, with the occasional piece of flat-bottomed rail re-used as bollards or fencing. It's also adjacent to the real village of Pott Row, and I was dropping unsubtle hints to Mullie that it might be fun to incorporate into a model.

 

That was way OT, even for me...

 

Paul

Not 3 or 4 trains a week, but usually two trains a day, some loading to 880 tonnes and some 2200 Tonnes.

 

They don't alf make the box shake!

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

Johnson possibly at Yarmouth beach.jpg

 

Interesting wagon in the background: "Booth & ..." No. 186; lettering white shaded, presumably black, so body colour grey or red, most likely grey. Seven planks, outside diagonal ironwork.

 

A little internet digging suggests the Ipswich firm of Booth & Mitchell. W.H. Booth made a minor name for himself as a painter although evidently keeping up the coal trade sufficiently to afford to collect as well. See a comment by wagonman towards the end of this old thread on Southwold on another forum.

[TheQ]

Apparently Cromer Beach, c.1900.  I have no idea how that location may have changed.

There is not a lot left of Cromer Beach station,

 

 Thats a morrisons supermarket to the left of picture taking up most of the site. there is a very nice layout of Cromer Beach station as it is today, but I can only find this link at the moment..

 

http://www.northnorfolknews.co.uk/news/labour-of-love-as-railway-enthusiast-creates-model-of-cromer-station-1-776543

[Hroth]

...

 

Anyway, are my Greenstuff daubings becoming any clearer?

Very!

 

You're doing a scene from Oliver!

 

Bill Sikes to the left, about to beat someone up, with a Cheery Costermonger and a Flahhh Girl doing "Consider Yerself".....

[Nearholmer]

Nancy's big number is "as long as he needs me", IIRC.

 

I can remember most of the words to all of the songs from a school production a loooong time ago, and can consign a trainload of urchins from Paltry Circus, if needed.

 

K

[Edwardian]

 a Flahhh Girl doing "Consider Yerself".....

 

I'll tell Lady Erstwhile you said that!

 

I confess, I am not a follower of musical theatre, but I do love Oliver!

 

Trouble is, I cannot now think of one without the other ....

Edited October 4, 2017 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

On 04/10/2017 at 05:15, Londontram said:

Johnson possibly at Yarmouth beach.jpg

 

I notice that No. 78 has received some local decoration in the form of a polished metal band around the chimney, along with a polished steel smokebox hinge plate.

 

I've been looking at minor detail differences between the 1312 class (per Ratio kit), 1808 class (per LRM kit), and M&GN C class (also Midland 2581 class - the engines added on to the Beyer Peacock M&GN order).

 

Platform valences / cab footsteps: a sketch will speak a thousand words:

 

 

Was this merely an aesthetic development or was there some engineering logic? Was it found that a deeper valence at the front end provided some necessary extra strengthening of the front bufferbeam? Was it an ergonomic improvement for the lower cab step to be wider?

 

Frames above platform level:

 

On the 1312 class and the first batches of the 1808 class, the top of the frames between the rear of the smokebox and the splashers is flush with the platform, i.e. not visible; on the 1891 batch of 1808 class and the M&GN C / 2581 class, the frames project about 3" above platform level - the LRM kit represents this later version.

 

On the 1312 class, the frames do not extend above platform level as far forward from the smokebox front as they do on the later engines.

 

Splashers:

 

The 1312 class as built had an early form of the Johnson double splasher, with a flat-topped section between the coupled wheels rather than the later sweeping reverse curve, as worn by the 1808 class and M&GN C. They acquired the later shape, probably by 1900, and that is what the Ratio kit depicts. This design change was, I'm sure, purely aesthetic.

 

Tenders:

 

The 1312 class had 2950 gallon tenders when built; the 1808 class, either 2950 or 3250 gallon; the 2581 class and hence presumably the M&GN C class, 3250 gallon. The external differences are in tank length, height and width, the 2950 gal tender being 19' 1 1/4" long x 6'7" wide x 3'8" high, with a 9" high flare, the width over the flare being 7'6"; the 3250 gal version is 19' 3 1/4" x 7'1" x 3' 11 1/4" with 11" flare, 8'0" overall, [Essery & Jenkinson, An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1984)]. I've just run a steel rule over my Ratio tender; it's a bit indeterminate but one feature is that it lacks the beading along the bottom of the tank sides and end, which Essery & Jenkinson state to be a feature of some 2950 gal tenders - of course this could easily be added with microstrip. The LRM kit is supplied with the 2950 gal tender but they also do the 3250 version.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Caley Jim]

I think Caley Jim will confirm that before they had fitted larger turntables at strategic points on the system The Caledonian's new Cardean class 4-6-0 had to be split to be turned mind you with its bogie four wheel tenders they were not much shorter than a Princess.

 

That's what they did at Kingmoor. Polmadie just sent them round the Cathcart Circle!

 

Jim

[uax6]

The only extensions that I have ever seen photos of were of the wagon turntable for Dunrobin. When the first one was replaced with the new one, the turntable was extended by the expedient of just fitting longer rails, so that they overhung the end of the table by about 18".

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

The only extensions that I have ever seen photos of were of the wagon turntable for Dunrobin. When the first one was replaced with the new one, the turntable was extended by the expedient of just fitting longer rails, so that they overhung the end of the table by about 18".

 

Andy G

 

I love that as a place name.

 

I think it would be a great house name for a retired barrister. 

[Compound2632]

I love that as a place name.

 

I think it would be a great house name for a retired barrister. 

 

In The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien has a people known as the Dunlendings. I always think of them as a tribe of retired librarians armed with overdue date stamps.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Compound2632

[Hroth]

I'll tell Lady Erstwhile you said that!

 

I confess, I am not a follower of musical theatre, but I do love Oliver!

 

Trouble is, I cannot now think of one without the other ....

Well, before I found the picture tag, I was thinking "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition..."

 

As for "Consider Yourself", the figure to the right of, and just behind Dodger looks rather Sikes-ish, whilst the thirdish row back, to the left by the barrows looks like the other two....

 

What does puzzle me is that if she's supposed to be Her Ladyship, why does she appear to be wearing a rather large cabbage leaf on her head?

 

H,C&O.....

[Hroth]

In The Lord of the Rings, Tolkein has a people known as the Dunlendings. I always think of them as a tribe of retired librarians armed with overdue date stamps.

Or retired loansharks?

 

As for Dunrobin, wasn't that the seat of a typical medieval robber-baron? or it could be a retirement home for former C&E Inspectors....

[Caley Jim]

I love that as a place name.

 

I think it would be a great house name for a retired barrister. 

It is,of course the name of the seat of the Duke of Sutherland who not only had his own private saloon, but also his own locomotive, named 'Dunrobin'.

 

Whenever I see that as a house name I often wonder if it belongs to a retired lawyer!  

 

I suppose our house should be called 'Dunfillan'.  

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

In The Lord of the Rings, Tolkein has a people known as the Dunlendings. I always think of them as a tribe of retired librarians armed with overdue date stamps.

 

You know, I used to think of them as retired bank managers.

 

Perhaps this is because my fate has been to borrow more money thank books over the years ... 

 

Of course, now we have Oliver! and Lord of the Rings in close proximity, I am reminded that, some years ago, I experienced a moment of incredulity at the announcement of Lord of the Rings, The Musical.  I gather it has done quite well, but I still struggle to take the concept seriously.  

 

Unfamiliar with this opus, I can only speculate how Tolkien's epic parable about Death and the struggle of Good against ultimate Evil could translate to a catchy musical theatre production ..... 

 

Consider yourself Elf-Friend, consider yourself part of the Fellowship?

 

I'd do anything, for you, Mr Frodo, anything 

Would you leave the Shire?

Anything

Face a danger dire?

Anything

Climb a rocky spire?

Anything

To demonic fire?

And back again.

[TheQ]

Friday 6th October at the Garage Norwich,

 

Ghostbusters in Elizabethan England.... in Shakesperian language....