Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge GWR Dean Goods

[coachmann]

I am confident the railway modellers on this forum will make their own mind up on whether this Dean Goods will be any use to them. My own position on this from the outset was to buy one. I could see the firebox sides were dodgy and probably nonredeemable, but I'll sort the rest out to suit meself.  Remarks such as "Why should purchasers have to do this" are understandable, but if you depend totally on what manufactures produce, then you have tied your own hands. Hobbyist railway modellers are far more relaxed about detail because they have an inbuilt desire to get on with things.  In other words, they will recognize that the Dean Goods is the only RTR one on the ballpark whether or not the manufacturer attends to the mistakes. 

[GWR8700]

Didn't we say this about the last one ?

I didn't follow the last one too closely but from a few reviews I saw it seemed like it was not as good as the Hornby version but for a first effort and at a lower price, it was good starting point.  This seems to have been a backward step in regards to detail.  I can take some errors, but the sheer number of them that are present on this model is incredibly disappointing and shows a lack of research on the prototype.

Edited July 2, 2017 by GWR8700

[melmerby]

 

When your watch stuff like this you begin to understand what the manufacturers are up against. It's terrifying. Garbage like this is watched avidly by thousands and is influential on the buying decisions of many. It seems now almost anyone can set themselves up as a self-appointed expert and can, with no prototype understanding, no modelling skills, no deductive fault-finding process, no reference to the manufacturer's instructions and no common sense pass judgement on both a product specifically and a manufacturer generally. Even more worryingly, they are believed!

You could say 99% of what is on Youtube is claptrap and the other 1% is rubbish

 

Bit unkind I know but this seems to be the modern generation where everything is so shallow.

There are some decent things on Youtube there but they are outweighed enormously by the utter crap!

 

Keith

[Legend]

Hilux, with great respect I suggest you don't draw too many broad conclusions about how well or not Oxford are doing with their locos on the strength of a Sam's Trains' review. In fact I wouldn't even draw any conclusions about Sam's Dean Goods based on Sam's review of Sam's Dean Goods.

 

At around the ten minutes into his "review" Sam applies power to the model for the first time having not run it in "off camera". He runs the loco approximately half a loco length backwards, stops the loco and pronounces "Not good!" He then drives it forward approx one and half loco lengths at which point his suspicions are confirmed. "Really not good", he tells us. He then repeats the above process before concluding "it's an absolutely awful performer". 

 

Now in fairness to "Sam", Oxford's instructions sheet is vague in the extreme about the duration of running-in recommended merely saying "require a gentle running in period to be completed prior to normal operating conditions to achieve best results and optimum performance from all working parts."

 

That being said, you would have thought that someone confident enough of the worth of their opinions to publish a review read by thousands (this bloke has over 9 thousand subscribers!) would have sufficient experience to realise that 4 loco lengths of running are no basis on which to draw any conclusions whatsoever.

 

The review starts badly.....and the gets worse. At this point "Sam" removes the body from the chassis and gives the loco a slightly lengthier run, all of six feet. "Yet again it seems that Oxford Rail don't know how to make a decent mechanism" he tells us. Exasperated, he then says "I might try and run it in, but........" Well, why on earth would you bother to put a loco on a rolling road for half an hour in each direction when and THEN judge it when you can simply cut to the chase and reach your conclusions a priori?

 

We are now told why Sam removed the loco's body. He did so to apply oil to "each end of the motor" and "the gear set" (sic), which is again interesting as he has completely ignored Oxford's lubrication instructions which are to lube the wheel bearings only. Even more amusingly, it becomes apparent at this point that the rear coupled wheels of the loco aren't even on the track, a trifling detail that Sam appears not to notice.

 

When your watch stuff like this you begin to understand what the manufacturers are up against. It's terrifying. Garbage like this is watched avidly by thousands and is influential on the buying decisions of many. It seems now almost anyone can set themselves up as a self-appointed expert and can, with no prototype understanding, no modelling skills, no deductive fault-finding process, no reference to the manufacturer's instructions and no common sense pass judgement on both a product specifically and a manufacturer generally. Even more worryingly, they are believed!

But you see Sams Trains is much more typical of the rest of us than many who post on here. He's bought the loco , put it on the track and compared it to lots of other reviews he's done. What he found was that in comparison to all these other locos he reviewed this one ran badly . As he reviews them all the same way , it's a relevant comparison. Not garbage at all. Small power forward over a point , small power backward over a point , which most models do smoothly . This one doesn't . He's serviced many models , so he kind of knows his way about mechanisms . He knows about running in . I think his point was that this one ran so badly he was scared to run it further.

 

Most locos that I buy run well straight from the box . Yes some may improve over time , but none run as bad as this does initially. I think it's simply that he's got a dud and will send it back and report on progress when he gets a replacement one . In that respect this review is much more authentic than many others.

 

Looking forward to see what S&DJR88 finds in his review.

 

But once again let's have a little tolerance here. Remember this hobby should appeal to a wide spectrum of people. Sams Trains , like IC82, probably does more than most in promoting this hobby to the young. As to manufacturers being up against it, well get your QC correct and you won't have an issue. Had there been a final QC check at end of production line , do you think this loco would have passed it?

[jcm@gwr]

But QC will not control how the 'reviewer' puts it on the track!

[Quarryscapes]

My experience of its performance is entirely different. I ran mine in on a rolling road for about 30 minutes in each direction before fitting a decoder and find it is a very smooth runner. It easily pulled seven coaches on level track (no inclines on my layout).

 

I was wondering about haulage capacity, I don't have enough 00 stock to test! 

[Legend]

But QC will not control how the 'reviewer' puts it on the track!

Its on properly for most of the review , certainly the critical parts where it lurches forward and in reverse. If it was me running that for first time it would go straight back. There is no doubt this is a duff loco , hopefully an isolated case, but we will see when he gets replacement and others start posting their reviews on YouTube

Edited July 2, 2017 by Legend

[Andy W]

If you are lucky enough to have a local model shop to buy your locos from, and you patronise it, wouldn't you expect them to take the loco out of the box and run it up and down their test track a few times while you watched? If it behaved like the loco in the video, wouldn't you also ask them to change it for another example?

 

Now my most recent purchases are various retailers own commissions, and none of these are local retailers to me so I didn't have this option. I do follow the "30 minutes in each direction on a rolling road" principle for everything I buy, and indeed anyone who doesn't is asking for trouble later on.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

But once again let's have a little tolerance here. Remember this hobby should appeal to a wide spectrum of people. Sams Trains , like IC82, probably does more than most in promoting this hobby to the young. As to manufacturers being up against it, well get your QC correct and you won't have an issue. Had there been a final QC check at end of production line , do you think this loco would have passed it?

 

Hello Legend,

 

You do make a very good point. Channels like "Sam's Trains" and IC82 DO have an important rule. If they are enthusing the younger and less experienced then that's great and to be encouraged.

 

But surely they also have a responsibility to their viewers to draw sensible conclusions based on a fair and logical analysis? How does it assist the less experienced viewers when they are shown that it's OK to jump to hasty conclusions without even bothering to follow the manufacturer's instructions? Wouldn't it have been more helpful for Sam to go through the instructions for the viewer's benefit? He could have demonstrated how to run-in a loco in properly. He could have demonstrated the use of a rolling road, which many less experienced modellers might not be familiar with. He could have demonstrated good oiling technique: the correct tools to use, the right amount of oil to use, the surfaces that need lubrication. He could have demonstrated a logical approach to fault finding such as checking basic things like dirty wheels or overtightened crankpins or....dare I say it......ensuring that the wheels are on the track.

 

You suggest that the ONLY problem here is one of manufacturing Quality Control. I'm sorry I disagree with you. No manufacturer I am aware of guarantees that a model will run like a Swiss watch straight out of the box - that's WHY all instruction manuals contain instructions regarding running in and lubrication. If owners don't even bother to follow these very basic instructions they are in part the author of their own misfortune.

 

It's dead simple really. Read the manufacturer's instructions and then follow them. THEN if the model is no good, go onto social media and tell the world and his dog about it.

[Ian Hargrave]

Hello Legend,

 

You do make a very good point. Channels like "Sam's Trains" and IC82 DO have an important rule. If they are enthusing the younger and less experienced then that's great and to be encouraged.

 

But surely they also have a responsibility to their viewers to draw sensible conclusions based on a fair and logical analysis? How does it assist the less experienced viewers when they are shown that it's OK to jump to hasty conclusions without even bothering to follow the manufacturer's instructions? Wouldn't it have been more helpful for Sam to go through the instructions for the viewer's benefit? He could have demonstrated how to run-in a loco in properly. He could have demonstrated the use of a rolling road, which many less experienced modellers might not be familiar with. He could have demonstrated good oiling technique: the correct tools to use, the right amount of oil to use, the surfaces that need lubrication. He could have demonstrated a logical approach to fault finding such as checking basic things like dirty wheels or overtightened crankpins or....dare I say it......ensuring that the wheels are on the track.

 

You suggest that the ONLY problem here is one of manufacturing Quality Control. I'm sorry I disagree with you. No manufacturer I am aware of guarantees that a model will run like a Swiss watch straight out of the box - that's WHY all instruction manuals contain instructions regarding running in and lubrication. If owners don't even bother to follow these very basic instructions they are in part the author of their own misfortune.

 

It's dead simple really. Read the manufacturer's instructions and then follow them. THEN if the model is no good, go onto social media and tell the world and his dog about it.

RMWoof ?

[40F]

OR76DG001 Dean Goods 2301 Class 0-6-0 '2309' Great Western Lined Green is now in stock with us.

 

 

Alex @ Footplate

 

 

Now the box is upside down   what next ? 

[tomparryharry]

What? The box is upside down?

 

That's it, scrap the batch. Sack the workforce. Close the factory! File for liquidation! Cancel the milk! Oh, hang on....

[Hroth]

Now the box is upside down   what next ? 

That'll be the export model for Australia and New Zealand.

[aussiebrfan]

Now the box is upside down   what next ? It's the Australian special edition!

[melmerby]

That'll be the export model for Australia and New Zealand.

Something else they got wrong then.

The loco should be upside down and the box the right way up.

This loco really is the pits

 

Oh sorry, I forgot I'm on RMWeb not You Tube

 

Keith

[Hroth]

...

Oh sorry, I forgot I'm on RMWeb not You Tube

 

Keith

Sometimes it IS difficult to spot the difference.....  

[The Johnster]

You could say 99% of what is on Youtube is claptrap and the other 1% is rubbish

 

Bit unkind I know but this seems to be the modern generation where everything is so shallow.

There are some decent things on Youtube there but they are outweighed enormously by the utter crap!

 

Keith

 

 

You could say 99% of what is on Youtube is claptrap and the other 1% is rubbish

 

Bit unkind I know but this seems to be the modern generation where everything is so shallow.

There are some decent things on Youtube there but they are outweighed enormously by the utter crap!

 

Keith

YouTube, like the Internet in general is free for the general public to use; as I have a very low opinion of the general public which I justify by remembering that I am one of them, I expect no better.  As for the modern generation, they are our fault, being brought up the way we brought them up, and this is true of every generation all the way back to Lucy in Ethiopia 6 million years or whatever it was ago.

[Legend]

Hello Legend,

 

You do make a very good point. Channels like "Sam's Trains" and IC82 DO have an important rule. If they are enthusing the younger and less experienced then that's great and to be encouraged.

 

But surely they also have a responsibility to their viewers to draw sensible conclusions based on a fair and logical analysis? How does it assist the less experienced viewers when they are shown that it's OK to jump to hasty conclusions without even bothering to follow the manufacturer's instructions? Wouldn't it have been more helpful for Sam to go through the instructions for the viewer's benefit? He could have demonstrated how to run-in a loco in properly. He could have demonstrated the use of a rolling road, which many less experienced modellers might not be familiar with. He could have demonstrated good oiling technique: the correct tools to use, the right amount of oil to use, the surfaces that need lubrication. He could have demonstrated a logical approach to fault finding such as checking basic things like dirty wheels or overtightened crankpins or....dare I say it......ensuring that the wheels are on the track.

 

You suggest that the ONLY problem here is one of manufacturing Quality Control. I'm sorry I disagree with you. No manufacturer I am aware of guarantees that a model will run like a Swiss watch straight out of the box - that's WHY all instruction manuals contain instructions regarding running in and lubrication. If owners don't even bother to follow these very basic instructions they are in part the author of their own misfortune.

 

It's dead simple really. Read the manufacturer's instructions and then follow them. THEN if the model is no good, go onto social media and tell the world and his dog about it.

He has videos showing how to lubricate locomotives along with how to service Hornby, Triang ,Wrenn, Mainline etc, so he is not a novice. While he certainly doesn't mention it, faced with a loco that doesn't perform well I'll bet he fully read the instructions, it's just that that wouldn't have been riveting viewing. How many modellers do you think have rolling roads? For the average Modeller, not many I'd venture.

 

But it is QC . This loco did not run well. Had there been a check at the end of the production line, which is not the way it's done these days, I'd bet this loco would have failed. It certainly should have. Andy W makes a good point , if you are lucky enough to have a dealer who could test run the loco , would you have accepted this loco? I think not, I certainly wouldn't. However I think this is no more than the occasional duff loco you get. I'm sure it will get replaced and I'll bet the next one runs well direct from the box. Certainly interested in finding out before I splash the cash on an unlined green one

Edited July 2, 2017 by Legend

[The Johnster]

If you are lucky enough to have a local model shop to buy your locos from, and you patronise it, wouldn't you expect them to take the loco out of the box and run it up and down their test track a few times while you watched? If it behaved like the loco in the video, wouldn't you also ask them to change it for another example?

 

Now my most recent purchases are various retailers own commissions, and none of these are local retailers to me so I didn't have this option. I do follow the "30 minutes in each direction on a rolling road" principle for everything I buy, and indeed anyone who doesn't is asking for trouble later on.

i am very lucky in that I have a very good local model railway shop indeed which will not let anything with a motor out the door unless it has been test run in front of the customer first, and they are quite happy to let the customer do the test running himself.  This is one of the reasons I buy stuff from them instead of cheaper online or from box shifters; they will order for me if the item isn't in stock, tell me when it turns up, and, again, not let it out the door until I've seen it running to my satisfaction..

 

My take on this is that any model that runs fairly well will improve with running in and correct lubrication, and one should not expect perfect running from the box, just a reasonable standard.  If it starts smoothly and stops smoothly, I can put up with a small deficiency in slow control, but most modern models are fine.  I can put up with a little noise as well, as this usually sorts itself out as the model beds itself in.  The proprietor of the shops will happily try out as many models as I like until I am happy, and will return my rejects as sub-standard; they are rare.  No retailer has the time to test run all his stock himself!

 

But this laudable approach from the shop is liable to be undermined by over-fussy customers who demand perfect running from brand new models without understanding the need for running in and lubrication, "it's brand new, it should run perfectly' sort of thing.  An explanation to such a customer sounds like an excuse, though the model may be running to a very good standard indeed.  As a rule of thumb, if it starts smoothly and can be controlled to 10mph or less, out of the box, and seems to be picking up where it should, I will take it home happy.  30 minutes in each direction is enough, and I have yet to take one back, but have no doubt as to the shop's response if I did, so long as the return was prompt.  I do not do any work to the loco until I am certain that I am happy with it...

 

I would not be happy with the one in the video, but was not able to see clearly how Sam was driving her; no loco will perform well with a heavy handed driver, and he may not have been doing her justice.   And he may have picked up a load of fluff from that carpet!

 

I would not be eager to condemn the performance of Oxford Rail Dean Goods' as a breed on this evidence.

Edited July 2, 2017 by The Johnster

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

........ I'll bet he fully read the instructions, it's just that that wouldn't have been riveting viewing.......

 

Andy W makes a good point , if you are lucky enough to have a dealer who could test run the loco , would you have accepted this loco? I think not, I certainly wouldn't. 

 

 

Hello Legend,

 

You say that you "bet he fully read the instructions". Well he may well have done, but he seems to have disregarded them completely! For example, Sam told us that he applied oil he applied oil "to each end of the motor", whereas the Oxford Rail instructions explicitly say "DO NOT apply oil to the motor itself." (Page 3). For that matter the Oxford instructions say "Do not operate your locomotive on track which has been laid directly on to carpet" (Page 3)  which is similarly disregarded. The Oxford instruction advise lubrication "After approximately 24 hours of operation". Sam appears to have lubricated his locomotive after it has travelled a grand total of around 3 feet. Now young Sam may have read the instructions as you suggest, but the point about instructions is that it isn't enough to read them, you have to follow them!

 

It is entirely possible that this IS a duff model - but by disregarding the instructions Sam hasn't eliminated the possibility that this loco just needs running in and that it will settle down as the bearing surfaces bed in. That's the while point of running-in and it applies to most machines including cars and, for that matter, full sized steam locomotives.

 

You asked the question "would you have accepted this loco?". My answer is that I would neither accept nor reject a model based on the scant evidence of a loco running over 3 feet! My local model shop has a circular test track and I will observe a loco over a few minutes before making a decision. In the case of Sam he appears to have bought his model mail order and therefore had the chance to run-in the model and then observe it over several hours or even days before returning it to the retailer. He chose not to do that. He then chose to draw sweeping conclusions about both the model and the manufacturer based on very little evidence. Then he chose to share the fruits of his "analysis" with thousands via social media.

 

You can attempt to defend this if you choose, but hasn't done any favours either to the manufacturer in question or the community of young and impressionable souls who appear to hang on his every word.

[57xx]

Another disappointing review on Sam's Trains channel on YouTube. Extremely bad running, very jumpy and erratic. Oxford aren't doing too well with locos are they.

 

Performance issues aside, he appears to be Oxford's ideal punter - loves a pretty looking loco that is cheap but hasn't got the knowledge to know the flaws. 

[JSpencer]

i am very lucky in that I have a very good local model railway shop indeed which will not let anything with a motor out the door unless it has been test run in front of the customer first, and they are quite happy to let the customer do the test running himself.  This is one of the reasons I buy stuff from them instead of cheaper online or from box shifters; they will order for me if the item isn't in stock, tell me when it turns up, and, again, not let it out the door until I've seen it running to my satisfaction..

 

My take on this is that any model that runs fairly well will improve with running in and correct lubrication, and one should not expect perfect running from the box, just a reasonable standard.  If it starts smoothly and stops smoothly, I can put up with a small deficiency in slow control, but most modern models are fine.  I can put up with a little noise as well, as this usually sorts itself out as the model beds itself in.  The proprietor of the shops will happily try out as many models as I like until I am happy, and will return my rejects as sub-standard; they are rare.  No retailer has the time to test run all his stock himself!

 

But this laudable approach from the shop is liable to be undermined by over-fussy customers who demand perfect running from brand new models without understanding the need for running in and lubrication, "it's brand new, it should run perfectly' sort of thing.  An explanation to such a customer sounds like an excuse, though the model may be running to a very good standard indeed.  As a rule of thumb, if it starts smoothly and can be controlled to 10mph or less, out of the box, and seems to be picking up where it should, I will take it home happy.  30 minutes in each direction is enough, and I have yet to take one back, but have no doubt as to the shop's response if I did, so long as the return was prompt.  I do not do any work to the loco until I am certain that I am happy with it...

 

I would not be happy with the one in the video, but was not able to see clearly how Sam was driving her; no loco will perform well with a heavy handed driver, and he may not have been doing her justice.   And he may have picked up a load of fluff from that carpet!

 

I would not be eager to condemn the performance of Oxford Rail Dean Goods' as a breed on this evidence.

Personally I find that 30 minutes each way is not enough and often I feel a good few hours in each direction is needed to really iron out the loco. Really fine running only happens after a good year's worth of regular running (say 30 minutes every couple of weeks).

The manufacturers statement to me seems to suggest that we should not put loads on the model until it's had some time to let itself settle down a little.

[The Johnster]

Personally I find that 30 minutes each way is not enough and often I feel a good few hours in each direction is needed to really iron out the loco. Really fine running only happens after a good year's worth of regular running (say 30 minutes every couple of weeks).

The manufacturers statement to me seems to suggest that we should not put loads on the model until it's had some time to let itself settle down a little.

 

I reckon 30 minutes does nearly all the bedding in that's going to be done in the first session, and the rest happens as the model is used in normal service, but I agree that performance improves over time and about a year to really settle in is probably right in my case of a small BLT where nothing does a lot of mileage or has to pull heavy loads.

 

I have an Airfix 61xx, running as a 5101, which I bought in, I think, 1980, which makes her 37 years old.  Despite 25 years out of use, she has run a good few scale miles and probably more than a couple of real ones, some of them in the hands of rough drivers at exhibitions.  I may have changed the carbon brushes but TBH cannot remember now.  She is running more smoothly and controllably as time goes on, and was a bit jerky when she was new; the traction tyre didn't help and it's removal and replacement with a spare wheel from a friend's scrap one was the biggest single improvement in the running, but she is gradually getting better and better as a runner.  She is as good a runner as any of my modern stud, albeit much noisier, but she is improving over time in this respect as well, and I suspect a bit of sound deadening in the vast empty caverns inside her body would close the gap considerably.  Now, this is exceptional, and may represent a lucky hit with a particularly good example.  Certainly I would not have expected her to improve in this way from her barely acceptable 1980 performance, when she was probably my least controllable loco and banned from freight work, to this extent, but it does illustrate the value of allowing a model time to bed in and of only lubricating sparingly and when necessary.  I imagine her final demise will be when the carbon brushes wear out and I cannot replace them; otherwise she's indestructible.  Her haulage capacity was never brilliant without the traction tyre, but she's more than up to anything I can hang on the back of her on the current layout, and it feels as though this aspect of her performance is improving as well; that's an impression, mind, and not an objective observation.

 

But it looks like she's still running in after 37 years!

[Quarryscapes]

The Sams Trains video looks to me to show a poor DCC chip being run on DC or a feedback issue with the controller rather than a mechanism issue. 

[tomparryharry]

If the chip is wrong, may I suggest a bit of tomato ketchup to help it along? Saving that, the feedback issue might improve with a dose of Alka Seltzer...

 

Sorry, it's Monday morning, and I always appreciate a dose of objectivity.

 

Ian.