RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20, 2016 I am developing a SOUTHERN RAILWAY layout set in the period 1938 – 1948 and I intend to have about 75% of the layout signalled with colour lights (with accompanying 3rd rail), the rest in semaphores. My question is, in order for them to be ‘right’ for the SR 1938 – 1948 period, would the colour light signals need to have rounded tops to their backplates? Modern ones are square-ish with rounded corners, but I have a feeling that SR ones were rounded at the top but I have not been able to find any evidence or supporting pictures. If they were rounded, then what happened when they had a route indicator / feather on top – were those then square? Any help greatly appreciated! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Hi Tony Nice page here that might help showing splitting signals rather than feathers:- http://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/modern-signals1.html Might be a bit before your period though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Where is the layout set? Central, Eastern or Western section? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike hughes Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 There's I pretty strongly believe next to Littlehampton carriage sheds with the round topped backhead. Can't remember if it's still got the 'pigs ears' or not Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivegreen Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Hi Tony Nice page here that might help showing splitting signals rather than feathers:- http://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/modern-signals1.html Might be a bit before your period though. Thank you for posting that link - another example of the great interchange of information on this site! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 The style of Southern Railway colourlight signal heads (inter-alia, almost everything related to c/l signalling schemes changed too) was altered more than once during the Southern Railway period. You need to think through where your layout is "located" and then look for Southern Railway or early-Southern Region period photos showing colour light signals for schemes which might be related. For example, the earliest schemes (which included some cluster signal heads) were in parts of the SED inner-London area, then there were schemes related to the Brighton line electrification - but only for its "country" parts, the SWD London area and the Portsmouth line electrification. One defining feature change which cuts across your specified period and which affected ALL SR colour light signal heads was the very obvious change from short to long hoods. This was implemented as an emergency ARP requirement in late 1940 - a task considered so urgent that the actual work was continued even during air raids. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 21, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 Hi Tony Nice page here that might help showing splitting signals rather than feathers:- http://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/modern-signals1.html Might be a bit before your period though. Suzie thanks for posting this - the pictures in the article clearly show that the signal backplates had the rounded tops that I had imagined - and rounded bottoms too! Very helpful. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 21, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 Where is the layout set? Central, Eastern or Western section? It is not based on a prototype, which may help or hinder, it is just Southern - and so this may give additional freedom or not! My aim is for it to be easily recognisable as Southern - which section might depend on what is running, and I can represent all three areas. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 21, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 The style of Southern Railway colourlight signal heads (inter-alia, almost everything related to c/l signalling schemes changed too) was altered more than once during the Southern Railway period. You need to think through where your layout is "located" and then look for Southern Railway or early-Southern Region period photos showing colour light signals for schemes which might be related. For example, the earliest schemes (which included some cluster signal heads) were in parts of the SED inner-London area, then there were schemes related to the Brighton line electrification - but only for its "country" parts, the SWD London area and the Portsmouth line electrification. One defining feature change which cuts across your specified period and which affected ALL SR colour light signal heads was the very obvious change from short to long hoods. This was implemented as an emergency ARP requirement in late 1940 - a task considered so urgent that the actual work was continued even during air raids. Thanks, that's very helpful and may need that I make a decision to narrow the dates at least. I am a bit less concerned about location because I want the freedom to run locos and stock from each of the three sections, and so some compromise will be needed. As I have said elsewhere, I just want it to be very clear that is Southern in style, character and substance. What I have had difficulty is in finding many pictures of Southern colour light signals - there are plenty for semaphores - so Suzy's posting earlier was very helpful in this respect. Tony Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivegreen Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Thanks, that's very helpful and may need that I make a decision to narrow the dates at least. I am a bit less concerned about location because I want the freedom to run locos and stock from each of the three sections, and so some compromise will be needed. As I have said elsewhere, I just want it to be very clear that is Southern in style, character and substance. What I have had difficulty is in finding many pictures of Southern colour light signals - there are plenty for semaphores - so Suzy's posting earlier was very helpful in this respect. Tony Tony Yes, Suzy's reference is a good one. But there does seem to be a shortage of photos of SR colour light signals, unless we are both looking in the wrong places, of course! Even George Pryer's 'Southern Signals' (OPC, 1977) has virtually nothing, though the two more recent Noodle Books on Southern Infrastructure (photos from the E. Wallis collection) have quite a few - mostly in the London area, unsurprisingly, though some in Brighton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted January 21, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Some good information on the SEMG website - http://www.semgonline.com/proto/signals.html I grew up in SE London and I remember some of the signals there at the time (1950s) although much has changed since. The up starter at Blackheath was the "transition" signal between the preceding semaphores and subsequent colour lights, so it was a semaphore home signal with a 3-light (Y/G/Y) addition below. At the next station, Lewisham, there was a diverging route for Charing Cross or Holborn. Here there was a pair of 4-aspect colour lights - one for each route rather than feathers. The aspects on the signal, from the bottom up, were Y/R/Y/G and I remember there were similar signals at the up platforms at London Bridge. Edited January 21, 2016 by RFS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I cannot find any examples of the 'Eckon' style of signal with square bottom and round top on the Southern. I believe that these were supplied by GRS so if GRS were involved with any Southern signalling schemes that might be a clue to find some. Most early Southern pictures I can find have round top and bottom just like the above picture (which is central division). If you do use feathers rather than splitting signals, having 3-lamp feathers rather than the more usual 5-lamp variety is a typically Southern feature that I don't think was found anywhere else. Here is a less than ideal picture of one at Woking on the South West division:- Edited January 21, 2016 by Suzie 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Suzie thanks for posting this - the pictures in the article clearly show that the signal backplates had the rounded tops that I had imagined - and rounded bottoms too!.... .....Most early Southern pictures I can find have round top and bottom just like the above picture (which is central division). If you do use feathers rather than splitting signals, having 3-lamp feathers rather than the more usual 5-lamp variety is a typically Southern feature that I don't think was found anywhere else. Here is a less than ideal picture of one:- One other point to note about this particular design of signal head, with the "pig's ears" on the side of each aspect and a rounded backing/sighting board, is that they were produced by Westinghouse. Identical models (mostly two-aspect, but with some three, and also some four-aspect heads) were installed on many surface lines of the London Underground. You can still see them working on the Piccadilly, District and Metropolitan Lines, and are usually arranged G/R, G/Y, or G/R/G/Y. Outer stretches of the Met Line from Harrow-on-the-Hill to Amersham also have the normal G/Y/R or Y/G/Y/R. Here's a very good Flickr album containing clear shots of the full-size Westinghouse head types, as well as others, in use on the London Underground Nobody produces a Westinghouse head design in 4mm scale. In the mid-1980's a chap named Clive Croome had a go at making a model LU signal (and exquisite it was, too), but the plan to produce a range of them never came to fruition. Edited January 21, 2016 by Horsetan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 21, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 I cannot find any examples of the 'Eckon' style of signal with square bottom and round top on the Southern. I believe that these were supplied by GRS so if GRS were involved with any Southern signalling schemes that might be a clue to find some. Most early Southern pictures I can find have round top and bottom just like the above picture (which is central division). If you do use feathers rather than splitting signals, having 3-lamp feathers rather than the more usual 5-lamp variety is a typically Southern feature that I don't think was found anywhere else. Here is a less than ideal picture of one at Woking on the South West division:- Another very helpful post Suzy, thank you. I think this confirms what I had thought about the rounded tops and bottoms. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 21, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 One other point to note about this particular design of signal head, with the "pig's ears" on the side of each aspect and a rounded backing/sighting board, is that they were produced by Westinghouse. Identical models (mostly two-aspect, but with some three, and also some four-aspect heads) were installed on many surface lines of the London Underground. You can still see them working on the Piccadilly, District and Metropolitan Lines, and are usually arranged G/R, G/Y, or G/R/G/Y. Outer stretches of the Met Line from Harrow-on-the-Hill to Amersham also have the normal G/Y/R or Y/G/Y/R. Here's a very good Flickr album containing clear shots of the full-size Westinghouse head types, as well as others, in use on the London Underground Nobody produces a Westinghouse head design in 4mm scale. In the mid-1980's a chap named Clive Croome had a go at making a model LU signal (and exquisite it was, too), but the plan to produce a range of them never came to fruition. Thanks Horsetan, you have confirmed what I thought / feared. So now the challenge is to get someone to make me some round-topped and round-bottomed signals including some with round-topped 3 - lamp feathers - Simple! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 .... the challenge is to get someone to make me some round-topped and round-bottomed signals including some with round-topped 3 - lamp feathers - Simple! Might be an idea for resin casting or, for those with the requisite technical knowledge and software, 3D printing.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 21, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2016 Might be an idea for resin casting or, for those with the requisite technical knowledge and software, 3D printing.... I have a man who does this; I will report any progress in case others are interested. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Lens diameter is 8 inches, I think. With all the modern tiny SMT LEDs, it might well prove easier to render a proper scale-sized head and back casing, and those impossibly thin enamelled wire strands should make a scale-sized hollow post possible. Edited January 21, 2016 by Horsetan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 28, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2016 I'd just like to thank all of those who responded to my query. With all of the information that I received I was able to complete the specification of the signals that I needed. I have since been in touch with Absolute Aspects ( https://www.absoluteaspects.com/) - no connection etc, and they have confirmed that they can make each of the signals to my specification - so an order has been placed! Best wishes Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 ....Absolute Aspects ( https://www.absoluteaspects.com/) - no connection etc, and they have confirmed that they can make each of the signals to my specification - so an order has been placed!... If they are anything like the versions shown elsewhere on this Forum, they'll be a modified version of the original castings produced years ago for the erstwhile Cockrobin Controls of Weston-super-Mare, so you may not get the rounded, embossed cabinet at the back of the head, and won't have the "pig's ear" sidelights. The market remains open for scale Westinghouse heads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grovenor Posted January 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 28, 2016 If they are anything like the versions shown elsewhere on this Forum, they'll be a modified version of the original castings produced years ago for the erstwhile Cockrobin Controls of Weston-super-Mare, If I paid absolute aspects prices and got anything like the signals in that picture i would be asking for my money back! regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Grovenor Posted January 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 28, 2016 The market remains open for scale Westinghouse heads Or scale MV-GRS heads, or SGE heads, or MLEng. heads or...or... Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 28, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2016 If I paid absolute aspects prices and got anything like the signals in that picture i would be asking for my money back! regards Me too. I'm a 'pot half full' person, so I will remain optimistic and post some pictures when received and installed. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I would suggest that the best answer is such situations is to send them drawings and/or photographs of the prototype types that you want, so that there can be no misunderstanding. If they then fail to supply the correct patterns, you decline to pay on the basis of the goods being not as ordered/described. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted January 29, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2016 I would suggest that the best answer is such situations is to send them drawings and/or photographs of the prototype types that you want, so that there can be no misunderstanding. If they then fail to supply the correct patterns, you decline to pay on the basis of the goods being not as ordered/described. Agree / done. I am very clear about what I am ordering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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