Another "Busy" 8x4 Layout

[Chimer]

Apologies for early morning grumpiness 

[Chris116]

Do not worry we all suffer sometimes!

[johnjch2]

Firstly; many thanks to Iain for his earlier post and who has then helped and produced this in AnyRail for me:

 

So yesterday morning I decided that I would at least start laying out the design so I can actually visualise on the board and as such had a little visit to my local model shop and picked up most of the required track for the above design.  For some of the straights, I decided to purchase streamline flexi a) because it's cheaper than set track and B) so I can at least practice using flexi (cutting and shaping) along with some track cutters. I will also use flexi for the outer 4th rad.

 

In addition as I'm going DCC, they had a 2nd hand Bachmann wireless Dynasis controller which I thought at least that would start me off - which then led me onto; I've got nothing to run on the track to test so I also purchased a) EZ Command 2 Function decoder to retrofit into my existing Deltec (purchased in 1981) and also a brand new Bachmann Class 25 as a treat! alongside a 21 pin Bachmann decoder (although I've now seen on another article they aren't the best).

 

So part of an afternoon clearing my board and re-starting the layout and running in my new loco.

 

 

 

[johnjch2]

Also, a slightly updated idea to the layout (again produced by Iain) which I am considering as an enhancement with a couple of extra sidings up top:

 

[johnjch2]

So today;

 

I'm going to finish off the outer loop (although another trip to the model shop as I'm short on 1 curve by mistake) and start looking at some initial DCC wiring so I can move away from my DC controller (and upgrade 2 of my engines).

 

I welcome views on wiring.  Do I run a "bus" wire down the centre of the underneath of the board or more of a ring around the edges; I assume the latter.  How many parts of the track do I need to actually connect. - might sound like a noobie question; but somehow or other I'll need a few pickups and what do I do around the points section?

 

Also; when I purchased my new train; it suggested a run it both ways on DC first for an hour or so; which I've done, however after I move to DCC that option will  be eliminated I think.

 

Finally; which auto-reverse module is good and where abouts do I actually wire it on the track

 

J

 

 

[Jaggzuk]

Cracking place there John! Brave steps spending a fare bit of cash, but better that too much arm chair procrastination.

 

I like the addition of the sidings to the terminus station. It makes it more of a destination. What I would now suggest, but may be a bit late if you have bought all the track now, is to drop the sidings on the left hand side loop. This would free up some space for urban/countryside scenery. This would help on two fronts. 1) help to break up the vista across the layout such the trains can go behind some buildings or a hill, 2) it helps to separate the two 'destinations' the top and bottom station areas.

 

Sounds like you came away with some good buys and will now not get frustrated having track and no DCC locos to run on it. Will certainly help as you get into the DCC wiring.

 

Are you considering any form of track underlay, like cork or similar? I got a roll of rubberised cork from my local MR shop. Will help to deaden running noise.

 

As your gradient now looks nice and gentle, must be about 2%, how are you going to create the slope? Also, as you have increased your upper baseboard area you may need to provide access to the hidden track underneath. And you will need it.

[chaz]

DCC - no contest - Roco (or Fleischmann, the only difference is the colour of the handsets) Multimaus. Really good system, nice to work with handsets, reliable (I believe Lenz make the electronic bits). Go on line and search for Multimaus - dealers sell the systems from broken up train sets on German ebay - you will not believe how cheap they are! I recently bought a system along with a second handset for my US On30 layout and I really like it.

 

hope that's helpful.

 

Chaz

[imt]

I can only comment on what I do as far as DCC is concerned.  It works for me and seems fairlty simple (to me anyway).

 

NOTE that there is NO difference between DC and DCC wiring - you still need a lot of cable.  IF you were to stay DC you might want isolating sections to keep locos still whilst you drive another one.  Largely your insulfrog points will do this - UNLESS you have put  DCC link clips in (Hornby R8232 DCC Electro point clips).  These clips are NOT essential for DCC  if you are wiring feeds to all sidings etc.

 

Run your bus around under the loops first, single bus will do.  I use Maplin 16/0.2 or 24/0.2 wire for the bus wired up to their 3amp or 5 amp choc strips (not brown bakelite any more but the name sticks!). Maplin call them Terminal Strips.  I use "P" clips to keep the intermediate wires tight to the bottom of the baseboard.  For the droppers from the track I use Peco pre-made PL80 rail joiners - wire attached.  You need to plan your feeds a little so you can put the choc strips close to them and then string the wire between them.  Photo of the bottom of one baseboard to show you MY idea.  Others will have different ones.  There are 3 busses there plus and an accessory bus - so more complex than you need.

 

PM me for more detail if you want it.

 

[imt]

A semi-reply to Jaggzuk and more info for johnjch2 - the slope is unfortunately 5 degrees.  I have warned him he needs 3" below the BOTTOM of his upper baseboard to allow space for trains underneath.  At the moment the TOP is at 5" giving him 2" for the baseboard.  If he can frame something up thinner than that then the slope might be back down to 4deg which would allow him to use the Woodland Scenics  incline set (http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/INCLDECLSET/page/1).

 

I am trying to drip feed this kind of thing to him lest he drowns in unintelligible information!

[imt]

On the subject of using your chipped loco, as I understand it, NOT DONE IT MYSELF and you must check your particular dcc chip - you set the loco address to 0 (ZERO) and it will run DC still.  You would need to change the loco address back to a DCC address when you switch to doing DCC.

 

Also as I understand it there are suppressors fitted to the DC loco which you can remove when you DCC it, BUT THEN IT WON'T DO DC.

 

Check the DCC fora and ask questions there I think.

[Chimer]

From reading about DCC on here, with no intention of trying it myself (!)

 

Theoretically you could run trains everywhere with just two feeds, to the two main circuits on the right hand side beneath the branch terminus.  On the other hand, if you want all the DCC bells, lights and whistles to work when engines are in a siding with the points set against them, and therefore electrically isolated, you need to feed every siding.  These are the two extremes .....

 

I would have thought one circular bus (i.e. two wires) roughly between the two main circuits with a spur on the underside of the terminus board would suffice.

 

The auto-reverse section will be the S-curve across the middle of the board, no idea which ones are any good.  Don't put that bit of track in until you've got the electrical solution sorted out, or at least don't set the points to use it, or you'll get an instant short.

 

Good luck

 

Chris 

[chaz]

It's not good practice to form a complete loop with your DCC bus (Don't ask me why!). By all means have a bus that follows the shape of your oval, but when you get back to where you started leave a gap.

 

The best way to wire your track is solder a dropper to every piece of rail (in other words don't rely on rail joiners) and take these to the bus. Of course any crossing (frog) will need to be wired to both sides of the bus via a switch. This obviously doesn't apply to points with plastic crossings (dead frogs) although these can cause problems of their own and IMHO are best avoided.

 

DCC wiring is very well covered on RMweb and an evening spent reading up will be very worthwhile.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

On the subject of using your chipped loco, as I understand it, NOT DONE IT MYSELF and you must check your particular dcc chip - you set the loco address to 0 (ZERO) and it will run DC still.  You would need to change the loco address back to a DCC address when you switch to doing DCC.

 

Also as I understand it there are suppressors fitted to the DC loco which you can remove when you DCC it, BUT THEN IT WON'T DO DC.

 

Check the DCC fora and ask questions there I think.

 

Not so, you are a bit confused I'm afraid. Setting the address to zero on a DCC controller allows you to drive a loco that does not have a DCC chip. Unless the DC facility has been switched off in the decoder a DCC equipped loco will run on DC, with no need to change its address - the DC controller knows nothing about addresses - how could it? I have done this a few times with my models on test tracks or other people's layouts. Of course you rely on the DC section switches to make sure that it is the only loco that moves. Performance will not be brilliant - it takes about 4 or 5 volts just to "wake up" the decoder so you are not likely to get anything like top speed.

 

Chaz

[johnjch2]

I've just modded one of my old deltecs, seems to work from the picks ups, however there is a chassis wire which I have disconnected, no idea what to do with that.

Also I've installed a Bachman 36-557 21 pin decoder into my new class 25. It makes a really awful high pitched electric buzz, others I have seen have mentioned this. Unacceptable in my eyes and ears! Anyone else have e perfect of this decoder or recommend a silent one.

The retro fitted one make a small sound but nearly as bad.

[chaz]

 

 

NOTE that there is NO difference between DC and DCC wiring

 

 

Broadly speaking that can be true but there is one crucial difference. The bus wires must have a sufficiently large conductor cross-section (thick wire) to ensure that any short-circuit will trigger an automatic shut-down. The well known "coin test" should trigger one. If it doesn't there is too much resistance in your wiring and you could have a problem when you get a short circuit - I speak from experience!

[Removed a/c]

Take that chip back and get the Bachmann 21 pin 36-554  much better IMO

[johnjch2]

Well, just a brief update; little bit of shopping and purchased a Lenz Silver 21 PIN as the Bachmann chip was driving my nuts with the buzzing.  Oh my what a world of difference.  My Class 25 moves so elegantly.

 

 

[imt]

So pleased for you! I was afraid that your experience would put you off DCC, which (for me anyway) has so many advantages.  Sadly, as in all things, you mostly get what you pay for.  Cheap anythings work, but not necessarily well or for long.

 

I await whether you manage to do the old Deltic with the same effect - presumably this will be a cut and solder in job.

[Jaggzuk]

As imt says, you get what you pay for (sometimes)  Plus, as you have a brand new loco, it sort of demands a good quality Chip.  Glad you are now experience the pleasure of DCC running; I just love how much better locos perform on DCC, smooth & slow running, quiet motors, directional lights and sound.

 

As there is such a price range on Chips, I decided to buy a selection chips and try them out before I center on one brand or type.  Plus, if is is an old loco I tend not to buy the more expensive chips.  Over the last year I have bought: Digitrax (DN136D & PS), Lenz (Standard & Silver), Hornby (R8249), Bachmann (21 pin 36-557) and Hattons (DCR-8PIN-Harness & DCR-21PIN-Direct.  I have yet to install the Hattons ones, but all others have been fine (for me).  The Bachmann chip I had was fine , but it is the slight more expensive version.  For all the chips I buy I have focused on getting 4 function decoders so that I can add lights to each loco that need them.

 

I sort of feel happy paying between £12 to £25 on a chip, much more than that I start to question what would the real benefit be on my type of layout of for the loco itself.  I will let you know what the Hattons ones are like as the 8 Pin was only £10, but then it will be going in an old loco and I have quite few old locos that need chipping so need a cost effective route.

[johnjch2]

So early this week, I decided to go for cork underlay for the track 1/8 size for OO I was told.  Cutting the straights was fairly simple, not so good on the curves but I'm assuming I will trim the curves a little more once they are bonded to the board.  I've also started to bond the inner track Cork with PVA Bond, as I've started to hardwire my track and it makes life easier. Just tried it on the straight pieces and get used to using it - 12-24 bond time, so will be seeing how well it's worked across the weekend.

 

At some point I will want to use point motors but not decided (and figured out yet) whether they will be DC or DCC - and how to wire, so I've just pre-drilled a small hole to identify where the point hole is in the board for later installation as I won't install motors right away. I'm currently researching whether to go PC software based and hook up a laptop / Ipad in the future, which may help - no switches!  Any advice on point motors would be useful - looks as if peco or seep would be cheapest with a Lenz controller box - I'm looking for easy install.

 

On Friday, after some head scratching, I managed to install my electrics for my reverse loop using the Lenz LK200 which so far, seems to do exactly the job.

 

 

 

 

 

[imt]

Lenz equipment is very good and it should do the job.  Glad you have that bit of magic sorted out.  If you want to use a computer then at least your accessories - points and any signals - will need to be DCC.  You COULD use DC to control the locos and DCC for the rest.  I took the view that there was little difference between cheap point motors needing expensive DCC interfaces or all in one DCC point motors, and that the wiring of the latter was easier.  I use Cobalt and they have worked well for me, there are several other kinds and of course there is no reason whatsoever that you cannot start with cheaper SEEPs and wire them up for DCC later.

 

You will find that the next layout you build will be easier.  I don't fancy ever again having to try to retro fit point motors.  This time I fitted them FIRST using a Cobalt template - much easier!

 

With my NCE Power Cab I have macros set up which control routes - all the appropriate points switching at once. I also have an NCE USB interface and have used (tentatively) JMRI software to do the same thing. As far as I am aware all other types of DCC controller will give you access to macros and have some sort of computer interface.  There is a lot of software out there - some of which is free and some very expensive. JMRI is free but rather less than intuitive.

[johnjch2]

Bit more reading, today, having decided that DCC is the way to go for points as well - I've drilled the appropriate sizing hole for the points . I have read some elements on cobalt motors.  One other thing I have had a look at is how signalling / or at least detection of points / train approach works - i.e. so that if points are set one direction the approach train in the other direction stops / prevents a crash. - if someone could explain this in some simple term that would be useful.  I believe there are a few methods to this - sensors, block wiring etc - for DCC what's the easiest and what kit do I need and can it be retro fitted?

[imt]

Now excuse me if I am a little discouraging, but you are in danger of going too deep too soon.  There are ways of doing what you are talking about in DCC, the sensors start at £10 or so BUT in order to make work what you want to happen you will probably need computer software which will detect the clash and brake to a stop any train moving beyond the protecting signal.  There are model control systems which will do this, and there are some pieces of hardware which may do what you want too.  I think you are more likely to get good advice on that in the DCC forums on this site rather than in here.  This is the layout design forum and maybe those experts don't look in here?

 

I would love to see the questions and answers because it interests me too - but I don't think my layout is big enough to go that far.

[Chimer]

There is a simple solution which worked long before DCC was thought of!  As you are using insulfrog points, insulated rail joiners on the rails leading away from the frog, a track length or two away from the point, will create an isolated section on the route the point is set against and stop any loco hauled train short of the point (unless the train is travelling at the speed of sound, or thereabouts).  Note, however, that this won't work for a multiple unit with pickups in the rear coach, or if you have followed DCC best practice and provided feeds to every length of track, or made links to defeat the self-isolating nature of the point.   

[Jaggzuk]

I think imt’s comment is very valid, do not get too absorbed/bogged down in to all the intricacy of DCC or adding super-duper train control!  After all one of your comments in your first post was "Over-all the layout needs to be fun; doesn't need to be real-world - and is for my kids also - one is 4 1/2 , the other will soon grow up at 1 1/2".  Also, you said “start a beginner model railway 8x4 size in OO in my garage with the view of then doing a larger model in the future“.  So, with both these comments in mind, and I am hoping to follow the same principle, if you really want to try it out, do it once as a prototype feature, rather than implement for all cases.  After all you (and me) need to get our layouts built so that they can be played with.

 

Also, if you take away all the traditional learning experience from the layout for yourself and your kids, when will they learn things such as, if points are set in the wrong direction this will equal a derailment, or worse a crash!  Mine are learning about setting routes, planning ahead and train control with everything currently being manual control.  However, on our rebuilt layout they will need to learn how to use a control panel with switches and buttons and LEDs.  Each is a small step.

 

The other aspect is that the extra cost could be quite high to implement all the DCC tech.  For example the Cobalt/Tortoise motor will be approx. £10-12 more per point than say for a simple switching solenoid motor.

 

I think the fantastic thing about DCC is that now there is almost no limit to what you can do and spend your money on, but this is not always a good thing when you consider the layout build as a complete entity