Hornby announce the LMS/BR 20 Ton Coke Wagon

[tomparryharry]

Thanks John

 

Larkin lists B448672 as a piped example.

 

Now ... the plot thickens

 

I know the Pensentt circuit was serviced by a Llantrisant - Kingswinford Junction working and that the Pensnett wagons were the later diagram 152- theres more on this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108527-br-20t-coke-hopper-diagram-1150/page-4

 

The up loaded working was a class 8 in 71/72 wtt - 8M64 but the down empties were a class 6 - 6V55! How could that be if there were no brake fitted wagons I wonder?

 

Phil

The Llantrisant working normally started ex Cwm Coking Plant, or Coedely Coking Plant. Both plants were on the Llantrisant patch. Later on, both pits were connected underground.

 

Ian

[Fat Controller]

Thanks John

 

Larkin lists B448672 as a piped example.

 

Now ... the plot thickens

 

I know the Pensentt circuit was serviced by a Llantrisant - Kingswinford Junction working and that the Pensnett wagons were the later diagram 152- theres more on this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108527-br-20t-coke-hopper-diagram-1150/page-4

 

The up loaded working was a class 8 in 71/72 wtt - 8M64 but the down empties were a class 6 - 6V55! How could that be if there were no brake fitted wagons I wonder?

 

Phil

The empties may have been classed in a higher speed band because there would have been considerably less weight to stop. You see the same nowadays with modern (fully-braked) coal wagons, where the loaded workings run as Class 6 (60 mph), but the empties are timed as Class 4 (75mph).

[Phil Bullock]

I did wonder - thanks Brian, and thanks Ian too , very useful gen

 

Also wondered if it was a job for some of those banana vans from Llantrisant - could a class 6 run as a through piped only train with a fitted van in 1972? And according to the 71/72 wtt both up(loaded) and down (empty) trains run on H3 timings. All other H3 timed trains are class 8s and any other class 6s were running on H2 timings - does make me wonder if 6V55 is a misprint and it should be a class 8 too....

 

The train did consist of dia 152 hoppers but still wondering if any were VB given the physical constraints with this wagon - all the phots of 152s on Pauls site are coded HCO, diagram 151s have HCPs amongst them

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Edited December 11, 2016 by Phil Bullock

[Enterprisingwestern]

The steelworks featured is, what was then Richard Thomas & Baldwins, Ebbw Vale works.

 

Some steelworks coking plants also dispatched coke as their capacity exceeded the needs of the adjacent blast furnaces and, conversely, some bought coke in to supplement their own production.

 

Presumably distance and logistics would answer the obvious question of why the steel works didn't keep it all in house and use their own elsewhere?

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

Presumably distance and logistics would answer the obvious question of why the steel works didn't keep it all in house and use their own elsewhere?

 

Mike.

You'd also have things like ovens being out of service for maintenance/ rebuilding, so even if there were a match of supply and demand under normal circumstances, it could easily be skewed. I don't think coke stacks very well, so plants wouldn't keep much of a buffer stock.

[Porcy Mane]

Presumably distance and logistics would answer the obvious question of why the steel works didn't keep it all in house and use their own elsewhere?

 

Mike.

 

Different types and grades of Coke was also produced to serve different purposes.

 

P

[hmrspaul]

There is a long discussion of this further up this thread. It represents a piped wagon (although without the pipes!) and photos do seem to suggest that at least some of these did have black background panel despite being bauxite.

 

Chris

Agreed, I thought we had sorted this out earlier. This one, despite being even later with a TOPS code has clearly been bauxite with a black number panel. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/e32035079

 

Perhaps BR accepted these wagons got into such a state that some additional help with keeping a useable number panel was necessary.

 

Paul

[Chris Higgs]

Agreed, I thought we had sorted this out earlier. This one, despite being even later with a TOPS code has clearly been bauxite with a black number panel. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/e32035079

 

Perhaps BR accepted these wagons got into such a state that some additional help with keeping a useable number panel was necessary.

 

Paul

 

This would be certainly be plausible. It mght not even be an official BR policy, just a pragmatic way by someone trying to keep the number legible for as long as possible.

 

Chris

[John Isherwood]

Agreed, I thought we had sorted this out earlier. This one, despite being even later with a TOPS code has clearly been bauxite with a black number panel. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/e32035079

 

Perhaps BR accepted these wagons got into such a state that some additional help with keeping a useable number panel was necessary.

 

Paul

 

I can certainly see black behind the HCP - undoubtedly put there as a base on which to add the TOPS code amid all the rust, and probably the first tin of paint that came to hand !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Arthur]

Presumably distance and logistics would answer the obvious question of why the steel works didn't keep it all in house and use their own elsewhere?

 

Mike.

 

Several reasons Mike.

 

Brian's covered some, like shortages during works redevelopments.

 

Again, as Brian said, coke isn't stored, it's too friable and under excessive handling starts to crumble to dust, so the works stockpile coal and not coke.

 

 

Works were very rarely 'in balance', i e. had all of their functions (coke output, iron output, steel output and finishing capacity) matched in terms of supply/demand. Greenfield, works built completely new from scratch, could achieve it but there were only ever three of those on the UK, Normanby Park, Irlam and Llanwern.

 

Even then the original plan might be to operate, for various reasons, as either a net coke importer or exporter.

 

Once a works was in operation there would be ongoing development so one year the rebuilt coke ovens would supply more than the works needed, five years later rebuilt blast furnaces would overstretch the coke oven output. Balance was an elusive element.

 

Some companies exchanged coke between their different operating sites.

 

And there were those smaller integrated works which, in the 1950s, had dispensed with their own coke ovens, Skinningrove, Bilston and Brymbo.

 

.

[TheSignalEngineer]

.....................

 

And there were those smaller integrated works which, in the 1950s, had dispensed with their own coke ovens, Skinningrove, Bilston and Brymbo.

 

.

I remember trains of coke hoppers bound for Bilston passing on the Down Through line at Snow Hill. I don't know where they originated from but my abiding memory is of a WD 2-8-0 getting stuck on the 1 in 45 gradient in the tunnel for the best part of an hour with a load of about 40. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[Fat Controller]

A lot of coke would have gone to foundries, which at one time seemed to exist in almost all towns; at Landore, which was relatively large, we'd have a few wagons every week, which tended to be 21t Minerals, as HCOs were a bit tall for the unloading tippler.

Would coke from gas production be of use for metallurgical purposes?

[Arthur]

I remember trains of coke hoppers bound for Bilston passing on the Down Through line at Snow Hill. I don't know where they originated from but my abiding memory is of a WD 2-8-0 getting stuck on the 1 in 45 gradient in the tunnel for the best part of an hour with a load of about 40.

 

I have wondered whether Bilston, then part of the Stewarts & Lloyds group, was supplied with coke from the ovens at S&Ls Corby works. Could that have been routed through Snow Hill?

 

 

Would coke from gas production be of use for metallurgical purposes?

Probably less than ideal, the coal would have been selected for its gas producing qualities rather than its smelting abilities. The steelworks went to great lengths to buy in certain coals and blend them in particular proportions to get the best coke for their purposes. One feature of metalurgical coke was that it was relatively hard and better able to stand the crushing weight of the burden in the blast furnace stack. I suspect gasworks coke was a good deal softer.

 

Might have been okay in a blacksmiths hearth or small cupola furnace, I don't know for sure.

 

.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Arthur

[hmrspaul]

I can certainly see black behind the HCP - undoubtedly put there as a base on which to add the TOPS code amid all the rust, and probably the first tin of paint that came to hand !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

It appears to be a full panel. And other HCP in the collection also have a black number panel.

 

Paul

[TheSignalEngineer]

I have wondered whether Bilston, then part of the Stewarts & Lloyds group, was supplied with coke from the ovens at S&Ls Corby works. Could that have been routed through Snow Hill?

.

I believe that Bilston was designed to work on coke from Yorkshire coal. I think this was also, along with Nottinghamshire, the source of most coal for Corby. 

If Corby coke were used at Bilston one possible route would be via Leicester, Nuneaton and Saltley to Bordesley yard on the GW line then reverse throug Snow Hill to Wolverhampton LL then back down the OWW to Bilston West. Another, possibly easier, route would be Nuneaton, Water Orton, Walsall and Dudley and reverse to get to the OWW at Bilston West or the Princes End Branch to get to Spring Vale on the Stour Valley. 

At the time, if you wanted to be particularly devious, I think you could still have done Corby, Wellingborough, Northampton then Towcester and Stratford-upon-Avon or Rugby and Leamington Spa. Spoilt for choice really in those days, I can think of at least six other ways of getting it round the Birmingham area. By 1967 it was all going in via Spring Vale

[adb968008]

My Hornby account is showing as dispatched, verified by a pending charge on my credit card for the same amount from Hornby.

Edited December 12, 2016 by adb968008

[adb968008]

Dying of a cold, I told my mrs I need some Coke to give me energy.

She brought it to me by the wagon load.

 

 

I think I'm feeling better already, even without the drink.

Edited September 10 by adb968008

[toboldlygo]

Dying of a cold, I told my mrs I need some Coke to give me energy.

She brought it to me by the wagon load.

IMG_0519.JPG

 

I think I'm feeling better already, even without the drink.

 

That's quite a line of Coke there   

[iak]

Some prefer Pepsi mind......

[adb968008]

I seem to have had a miracle recovery.

 

Here's the results of my therapy...

 

 

 

 

Very nice wagons, of note the insides of the wagons are printed wooden boards like the exterior unlike the original samples.

The Brown wagons have different axle boxes to the grey ones. (One reflecting BR the other LMs).

 

I've found them good for shunting on my unsteady track, they have self centering couplings (like the old Hornby HAAs had years ago) and weighty enough to hold down, but not too light to be jumping the track.

 

They have a very nice clacking sound over rail joints.

 

One wagon had an incorrectly set wheel, but otherwise everything was fine.

 

 

Edited September 10 by adb968008

[JZ]

Picked up my first two from East Somerset Models this morning. Nice looking wagons. Very big, they almost look out of scale when next to a 16 tonner. The axle boxes are plastic, so with care the wheelsets can be removed. If you are fitting Kadee couplers, you will need #19, or #20 if you have anything tighter than 24" rad.

 

Word of warning!!!!!!

I managed to knock both buffers off of one end of mine while removing a coupler.

 

 Here's one part way through weathering.

 

Another 3 in grey to come.

 

Edit to add this.

Although a 12 ton wagon, it shows the difference in size.

Edited December 17, 2016 by JZ

[Phil Bullock]

Nabbed some from my local emporium

 

Very nice! The finish on the wheels is particularly good - don't feel the need to immediately remove and paint them, although they will get weathered....

 

Phil

[Andy Y]

The more I've looked into these as part of the review for BRM the more I realise how intelligently Hornby have approached the design to cover three diagrams.

 

[Porcy Mane]

Clever design as opposed to design clever. All the step/no step variations covered, Plug in module to provide for the different W iron/axlebox combinations and allow for those of us that has the urge to tinker some tinkerability. 

 

Maybe the cast metal chassis isn't a new idea for a wagon but with this much detail? Even has the monkey tails. What might be a first for RTR. is the W irons being joggled out directly below the sole bars in prototypical fashion?

 

A bit of detailing on the inside of the hopper  and the jobs a goodun.

 

I'll give it 8/10.

 

 

 

P

[Swindon 123]

Clever design as opposed to design clever. All the step/no step variations covered, Plug in module to provide for the different W iron/axlebox combinations and allow for those of us that has the urge to tinker some tinkerability. 

 

Maybe the cast metal chassis isn't a new idea for a wagon but with this much detail? Even has the monkey tails. What might be a first for RTR. is the W irons being joggled out directly below the sole bars in prototypical fashion?

 

A bit of detailing on the inside of the hopper  and the jobs a goodun.

 

I'll give it 8/10.

 

HbyCokeMedalling-002-editSm.jpg

 

HbyCokeMedalling-005-Edit.jpg

 

P

Thank you Porcy Main for that illuminating breakdown of how to get the wagon apart. I have bought one just to find out if it was easy to get apart and modify. You have answered to question. Now all I have to do is find more photos of the cut down sand conversion. I've got two photos of examples and a screen capture from a BFI film showing some (not very well), but need more. Any ideas as to where there might be any, anyone?

 

Paul J.