Hornby announce the LMS/BR 20 Ton Coke Wagon

[durham light infantry]

Is there a reason why they are pale brown on the outside of the wooden extensions, but dark on the inside ?

Because the tampo machine doesn't work on the inside...

 

Mike

[73080]

Is Hornby actually proposing a brown livery for the BR liveried coke wagons ?

 

If so, is that correct ?

 

The model coke wagons appear to be unfitted, and my understanding is that unfitted wagons in the pre-TOPS era were always grey.  Were the coke wagons an exception ?

[asmay2002]

Is Hornby actually proposing a brown livery for the BR liveried coke wagons ?

 

If so, is that correct ?

 

The model coke wagons appear to be unfitted, and my understanding is that unfitted wagons in the pre-TOPS era were always grey.  Were the coke wagons an exception ?

I'm beginning to wonder if they haven't used a photo of  a completely rusted wagon where all the paint has come off the wooden boards and assumed that is a livery.  Of course in early BR days it might be LMS bauxite with BR lettering.

Edited October 9, 2016 by asmay2002

[PaulCheffus]

Is Hornby actually proposing a brown livery for the BR liveried coke wagons ?

 

If so, is that correct ?

 

The model coke wagons appear to be unfitted, and my understanding is that unfitted wagons in the pre-TOPS era were always grey.  Were the coke wagons an exception ?

Hi

 

Some of the Coke wagons were piped and may have been painted bauxite.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Chris Higgs]

I'm beginning to wonder if they haven't used a photo of  a completely rusted wagon where all the paint has come off the wooden boards and assumed that is a livery.  Of course in early BR days it might be LMS bauxite with BR lettering.

 

The right hand photo on this page http://www.steamandthings.com/page9.htm (sorry I don;t have access to the original on Paul Bartlett's site at this moment) shows a heavily weathered hopper that does look remarkably like the Hornby 'brown' version. The number is uncanningly close as well. The planking colour in this photo looks to be down to the corrosive effects Coke had on wagons. This is a piped wagon so I suppose it could have been Bauxite originally rather than grey. But normally BR did not use black backing panels to the numbers on bauxite stock. This is a BR built wagon and so cannot be carrying ancient LMS livery with BR numbers.

 

If BR did paint the hoppers bauxite then I am highly skeptical that the planking was painted in the colours Hornby have used. It would have been one colour all over.

 

EDIT: or perhaps not? The wagon partially visible to the left in the photo looks to have white-washed planking.

 

I would have thought there was a good chance that the LMS did paint their hoppers Bauxite at some point.

 

Chris

Edited October 12, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[Wickham Green]

The right hand photo on this page http://www.steamandthings.com/page9.htm (sorry I don;t have access to the original on Paul Bartlett's site at this moment) shows a heavily weathered hopper that does look remarkably like the Hornby 'brown' version. The number is uncanningly close as well. The planking colour in this photo looks to be down to the corrosive effects Coke had on wagons. This is a piped wagon so I suppose it could have been Bauxite originally rather than grey. But normally BR did not use black backing panels to the numbers on bauxite stock. This is a BR built wagon and so cannot be carrying ancient LMS livery with BR numbers.

 

If BR did paint the hoppers bauxite then I am highly skeptical that the planking was painted in the colours Hornby have used. It would have been one colour all over.

 

EDIT: or perhaps not? The wagon partially visible to the left in the photo looks to have white-washed planking.

 

I would have thought there was a good chance that the LMS did paint their hoppers Bauxite at some point.

 

Chris

Unlike most of Paul's photos this one clearly shows an 'HCP' ....... that's pee for pipe - so it IS in B.R.Bauxite as it should be !

 

Any grey L.M.S. coke hoppers that actually saw a paintbrush just before or after the war would have received bauxite - but there probably weren't many of them ........... were any bauxite from new, though ? - I haven't got build dates to hand.

[Chris Higgs]

Unlike most of Paul's photos this one clearly shows an 'HCP' ....... that's pee for pipe - so it IS in B.R.Bauxite as it should be !

 

Any grey L.M.S. coke hoppers that actually saw a paintbrush just before or after the war would have received bauxite - but there probably weren't many of them ........... were any bauxite from new, though ? - I haven't got build dates to hand.

 

In the David Larkin book Working Wagons Volume 1 is a piped wagon B448673 which it states was originally bauxite. In Volume 2 of the same series is B448522 which was originally grey. However in the end they both simply look the same - pure rust. The planks do look lighter in some shots, as they have rotted and been replaced by new ones which are unpainted wood.

 

The LMS hoppers were built in two batches of 100 each in 1930 and 1935. So they would have all been grey when new. According to Bob Essery's books there are no known pictures on them in post-1936 livery. Perhaps that is because they never carried it?

Edited October 13, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[Flying Pig]

Edit: ok try again

 

I emailed Hornby querying this livery and they responded with a scan of the photo of B448673 in Working Wagons, but no additional information on how they have interpreted it. It seems that they are correct to represent this design with a piped wagon in bauxite, but they may have inferred details of a new wagon from a picture of a well weathered vehicle. There does seem to be a dark patch behind the number in Dave Larkin's photo, which could indicate a repainted number, or just a weathering effect.

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Flying Pig

[Lambton58]

Edit: reply deleted

Oh you tease!!

 

btw - found your 3H one the other day.  It's in stock box No 2 at Lambton Towers

[Chris Higgs]

Edit: ok try again

 

I emailed Hornby querying this livery and they responded with a scan of the photo of B448673 in Working Wagons, but no additional information on how they have interpreted it. It seems that they are correct to represent this design with a piped wagon in bauxite, but they may have inferred details of a new wagon from a picture of a well weathered vehicle. There does seem to be a dark patch behind the number in Dave Larkin's photo, which could indicate a repainted number, or just a weathering effect.

 

DSCF2448.JPG

 

Well, they didn't actually represent the pipe, although perhaps that's impossible given the presence of the coupling. 

 

If that beige colour is supposed to represent unpainted wood, I don't find it very convincing. Especially as it should then be the same colour on the inside. Although there are many pictures on the Paul Bartlett site of wagons with unpainted planks, they all look like later replacements to me and the only photo of an ex-works wagon (albeit a grey one) has the planking painted in the body colour. There is only one thing that looks anything like unpainted wood and that is unpainted wood...

 

This of course is not unique to this wagon at all. Almost all wooden open wagons has unpainted interiors in real life, but we always get them painted inside in the body colour. 

 

Now, if they plan to release a version in the extreme rust weathering, that certainly would get plaudits - like those lovely Dapol 'silver' bullet tankers.

 

Here's an interesting photo to mull over in regards to the livery http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/h3598e16b#h32035079

Edited October 13, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[Porcy Mane]

If that beige colour is supposed to represent unpainted wood, I don't find it very convincing. Especially as it should then be the same colour on the inside.

 Erm, well no, not necessarily.

 

A quick look at this pic from earlier in the thread shows otherwise.

 

http://railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=0334020014000&aid=&_FACT=150&_UP=25&InFrame=&_PAGE=

 

P 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Chris Higgs]

 Erm, well no, not necessarily.

 

A quick look at this pic from earlier in the thread shows otherwise.

 

http://railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=0334020014000&aid=&_FACT=150&_UP=25&InFrame=&_PAGE=

 

P 

 

Yes, but that's dirt inside and cakes the whole wagon. Coke dust I suppose. Impossible to tell what colour it was ex-works. I seriously seriously doubt BR would paint the inside of planks but leave the outside plain. What purpose could that have? If anything you would do it the other way around.

 

How about this: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/h3598e16b#h206e3e17

Edited October 13, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[Garethp8873]

E-mail from Hattons today announcing 22 dec arrival. 

 

12/12/2016 for both LMS and BR versions according to the Hornby website now...

Edited December 5, 2016 by Garethp8873

[caradoc]

I didn't know they were going to be in 'Dutch' livery ! They'll need a bit of weathering. Thanks for posting the link  D1051.

[rembrow]

Hornby website now has all versions as having arrived and available. I assume they will get to retailers by early next week.

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks for the heads up! Would I be correct in assuming that the livery of the single wagons http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-20-ton-coke-wagon-3-3.html is a later version than the three pack?  http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-20-ton-coke-hopper-wagons-three-wagon-pack.html

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[John Isherwood]

Thanks for the heads up! Would I be correct in assuming that the livery of the single wagons http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-20-ton-coke-wagon-3-3.html is a later version than the three pack?  http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-20-ton-coke-hopper-wagons-three-wagon-pack.html

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

Ahhhhh - now that's odd !!

 

I'm assuming that http://www.Hornby.co...-wagon-3-3.html represents, (not too convincingly), an all-over rusted, non-fitted wagon, with renewed lettering and raves.

 

The alternative is that they mean it to be a piped or fitted wagon - in which case it shouldn't have a black background to the lettering.

 

I suppose that some research into the number might enlighten us - but it's late !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 10, 2016 by cctransuk

[Chris Higgs]

Ahhhhh - now that's odd !!

 

I'm assuming that http://www.Hornby.co...-wagon-3-3.html represents, (not too convincingly), an all-over rusted, non-fitted wagon, with renewed lettering and raves.

 

The alternative is that they mean it to be a piped or fitted wagon - in which case it shouldn't have a black background to the lettering.

 

I suppose that some research into the number might enlighten us - but it's late !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

There is a long discussion of this further up this thread. It represents a piped wagon (although without the pipes!) and photos do seem to suggest that at least some of these did have black background panel despite being bauxite.

 

Chris

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks John

 

Larkin lists B448672 as a piped example.

 

Now ... the plot thickens

 

I know the Pensentt circuit was serviced by a Llantrisant - Kingswinford Junction working and that the Pensnett wagons were the later diagram 152- theres more on this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108527-br-20t-coke-hopper-diagram-1150/page-4

 

The up loaded working was a class 8 in 71/72 wtt - 8M64 but the down empties were a class 6 - 6V55! How could that be if there were no brake fitted wagons I wonder?

 

Phil

Edited December 10, 2016 by Phil Bullock

[John Isherwood]

...photos do seem to suggest that at least some of these did have black background panel despite being bauxite.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Can you point me at these photos; I do have an extensive wagon library?

 

Many thanks,

John.

[John Isherwood]

Chris,

 

Can you point me at these photos; I do have an extensive wagon library?

 

Many thanks,

John.

 

Found it above - if that's bauxite with a black patch, I'm a Dutchman !! (David is not unknown for his sometimes 'creative' captions).

 

I'd interpret that monochrome photo as an overall rust wagon that has had its number etc., repainted on a patch of unidentifiable coloured new(ish) paint - perhaps black, but just as likely bauxite.

 

If you'd ever seen the conditions when hot coke was doused and dumped at a coking plant, as I did - (Birchenwood, Kidsgrove, Staffs.) - you'd understand why the vast majority of coke hoppers had a livery of unrelieved rust!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[MartinTrucks]

Not directly relevant to the topic, but some of you may nonetheless find this of interest:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62QuEiD6R_k

 

The first 5 minutes incudes views of iron ore extraction in England, nice lines of loaded hoppers (1945) for the steelworks and a coking plant in operation. In this film, the coking plant is part of the steelworks. The prototype of the Hornby hopper would obviously have carried coke away from an independent coking plant.

[Arthur]

 

The steelworks featured is, what was then Richard Thomas & Baldwins, Ebbw Vale works.

 

Some steelworks coking plants also dispatched coke as their capacity exceeded the needs of the adjacent blast furnaces and, conversely, some bought coke in to supplement their own production.

[Fat Controller]

The steelworks featured is, what was then Richard Thomas & Baldwins, Ebbw Vale works.

 

Some steelworks coking plants also dispatched coke as their capacity exceeded the needs of the adjacent blast furnaces and, conversely, some bought coke in to supplement their own production.

Even recently, whilst the coke ovens at Redcar were still working, there was a daily train of coke from there to the Scunthorpe plant.

The steel companies, and later, British Steel, also had some coking plants away from the steel works- the best-known probably being Orgreave, which was on the TV every day thirty years ago.

[Arthur]

 

Appleby Frodingham at Scunthorpe was a good example of a coke importing works. It originally had no ovens of its own being supplied by United Steels ovens at Orgreave and that continued even after a coking plant was built there in the 1950s.