Brownstock prototype questiion

[george stein]

(from the USA - so excuse basic question)  Although Brownstock wagons were permitted on passenger trains, were they ONLY used on passenger trains or might one find, say, a brown parcels van on a goods train?  Likewise, were brownstock wagons always at the end, next to loco, or wherever?  That is: was there a "required" location in the rake of wagons/coaches?  Thanks.

[Rivercider]

Hi George,

 

as Brown Stock included things like horse boxes and Siphon G vans fitted out for milk traffic they would often be seen on other than passenger trains,

like milk trains or horse race day specials,

 

cheers

[APOLLO]

(from the USA - so excuse basic question)  Although Brownstock wagons were permitted on passenger trains, were they ONLY used on passenger trains or might one find, say, a brown parcels van on a goods train?  Likewise, were brownstock wagons always at the end, next to loco, or wherever?  That is: was there a "required" location in the rake of wagons/coaches?  Thanks.

 

As far as I can remember, BR goods wagons were either painted Grey (hand brakes only) or Bauxite (brown). The brown ones were vacuum brake fitted and those marked XP (express passenger) could be run with passenger trains. Many brown (brake fitted) vans were marked XP and were seen in passenger train formations occasionally

 

Goods trains were classified mainly due to the braking characteristics. Unfitted goods had no brake fitted vehicles. Fully fitted goods were 100% braked vehicles. Partially fitted goods had the brake fitted stock behind the loco.

 

More info

 

http://www.uksteam.info/gwr/hcodes.htm

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/7-fops/fo-traintype.htm

 

Hope this points you in the right direction.

 

Brit15

[Coach bogie]

Browns would be seen in goods and well as passenger trains, usually to get the brown to its' final destination. Position wise, in a freight train, being positioned next to the engine would provide much needed additional braking.

 

It was more common in passenger formation as train speeds were much higher, and the reason for the stock being 'brown' was to enable faster transport at express speeds.  In passenger trains, browns would be positioned based on desination. It was not uncommon to find a siphon in the middle of a train as that section would be dropped off on route, minimising the shunting required.

 

There also the block freight trains of browns such as fish trains, fruit trains etc.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Stationmaster]

(from the USA - so excuse basic question)  Although Brownstock wagons were permitted on passenger trains, were they ONLY used on passenger trains or might one find, say, a brown parcels van on a goods train?  Likewise, were brownstock wagons always at the end, next to loco, or wherever?  That is: was there a "required" location in the rake of wagons/coaches?  Thanks.

It's a complex question - or rather involves some complex answers - so I'll try to come back and deal with it in full later on, hopefully today.

 

The GWR 'brown stock' was classified as 'non-passenger carrying coaching stock' although there was then an operational difference between various types depending on the number of wheels a vehicle had but irrespective of that the Instructions required such vehicles to be marshalled outside the passenger vehicles when conveyed by a passenger train - i.e. either extreme front or extreme rear although certain exceptions could be made for bogie vehicles.  

 

Because the vehicles carried Passenger Rated Traffic (hence their classification) there were generally no restrictions on marshalling them when they were formed into such trains as perishables, milk, horse etc trains - because these trains were not freight trains (i.e. they were in a category of their own although just to be a little confusing some freight trains could carry the same headlamp code).  There were however some restrictions on marshalling brown vehicles in freight trains.

 

Just to add a touch of chaos to any confusion some of the Instructions changed over the years which means that some of what was or wasn't permitted would depend on the period being modelled.

 

So a sort of 'quickie' answer for now and a fuller explanation to follow as I need to check some of the detail to make sure I get it right.

[The Stationmaster]

Right, the simplest part first - freight trains.

 

As the Instructions stood in 1936 passenger brake vans and parcels vans were not permitted to be conveyed on freight trains consisting of 60 wagons or more.

When such vehicles were conveyed on freight trains they were required to be marshalled immediately ahead of the brakevan

except on local trains and pilot trips conveying a load equal to not more than 25 wagons of Class 1 traffic where they could be placed in any position in the train.

 

Passenger train vehicles (other than coaches, passenger brake vansor parcels vans) may be placed in any position on freight trains.

 

In 1937 the authority for anyone to add passenger coaches and brakevans was withdrawn and henceforth it was only permitted with authority from Control.

 

the Instructions were further altered in 1950 and in 1954 a number of vehicles including the bogie Siphons were banned from being conveyed on freight trains except where essential for traffic requirements on branch lines.

 

That is by far the easiest area.  I'll come back with the information about the complexities involved with marshalling such vehicles on passenger trains and even on perishable etc trains (where there were also certain requirements to be observed).

[57xx]

As far as I can remember, BR goods wagons were either painted Grey (hand brakes only) or Bauxite (brown). The brown ones were vacuum brake fitted and those marked XP (express passenger) could be run with passenger trains. Many brown (brake fitted) vans were marked XP and were seen in passenger train formations occasionally

 

As this is the GWR Rolling Stock section, he won't be asking about BR goods wagons  He means the NPCC stock as mentioned above.

[The Stationmaster]

And so to Passenger trains.  The Instructions applying to 4 wheeled NPCCS (i.e. brown stock as far as the GWR was concerned) were generally those which also applied to freight wagons attached to passenger trains.  And in addition the standard passenger train restrictions on the number of wheels permitted behind the rearmost brakevan also applied.

 

The 1936 Instructions were generally similar to earlier Instructions but emphasis on wheel base began to increase.  There appear to have been no restrictions on the marshalling of bogie NPCCS although they would not normally be permitted within the passenger formation except where special authority was given.  From 1936 until 30 September 1938 vehicles with a wheelbase of less than 9 feet were not permitted to be attached to Class A express passenger trains and this figure was increased to 'not less than 10 feet at the latter date.  The only exception to the latter was that LNER FishVans with a wheelbase between 9ft and 9ft 11" were still permitted on GWR Class A trains until June 1939.

 

The following marshalling applied if the vehicle wheel base was less than 15 feet - all 4 wheelers were to be marshalled behind any bogie passenger carrying vehicles but if this was impracticable they were permitted to be marshalled next to the engine or they could be mixed among 6 wheeled NPCCS provided they were in front of any passenger carrying vehicles but if they NPCCS did not have steam pipes in the steam heating season they had to go on the rear of the passenger vehicles.

 

Irrespective of wheelbase all 4 wheelers were not permitted to be marshalled between bogie vehicles except -

a. They were marshalled between bogie fish or other bogie NPCCS which are behind the last passenger carrying vehicle, or

b. They are marshalled between empty bogie passenger vehicles and the rear brakevan, or

cVehicles containing theatrical, Naval, military of Air Force traffic could be marshalled in destination order provided they were in a train conveying only such traffics.

 

From 30 September 1938 vehicles with a wheelbase of 10 feet and less than 12 feet were only permitted to be formed rear of a train conveying Class A headlamps but if this was impracticable they were permitted to be marshalled next to the engine if they did not have steam pipes in the steam heating season they had to go on the rear of the passenger vehicles.

 

$ wheelers with a wheelbase of at least 9 feet but less than 10feet were permitted on passenger trains other than those carrying Class A headlamps under the following conditions - all 4 wheelers were to be marshalled behind any bogie passenger carrying vehicles but if this was impracticable they were permitted to be marshalled next to the engine or they could be mixed among 6 wheeled NPCCS provided they were in front of any passenger carrying vehicles but if they NPCCS did not have steam pipes in the steam heating season they had to go on the rear of the passenger vehicles.

 

Milk tanks (including Road Rail Tanks) - were limited to a maximum speed of 60mph and unless they were 6 wheeled had to be marshalled rear witha  6 or 8 wheeled vehicle behind them.  6 wheeled milk tanks ewere permitted to be marshalled either rear or immediately behind the engine but not between any passenger carrying vehicles.

[george stein]

Thank you all - especially Stationmaster - for supplying info that's probably obvious to a UK person familiar with seeing the "real thing" but an obvious total mystery across the pond.  I doubt that even on the club layout I'll have a 60 wagon freight train, but it is clear now how, say, a branch-line freight might carry a "brown" parcel van behind the engine.  Again, thanks to all.

 

Check our club layout.  www.avmrc.com

 

George

[Siberian Snooper]

Stationmaster, do you have any details for said trains in 1925, please?

[The Stationmaster]

Stationmaster, do you have any details for said trains in 1925, please?

What's it worth guv?  (1920 is no problem, not sure about 1925 without checking my archive)

[The Stationmaster]

Right specially for those snooping from Siberia.  This information is valid from 1920 to 01 January 1924, including an alteration made in February 1922, and was seemingly unaltered for some years after that which although I can't accurately date was probably no earlier than the very late 1920s and most likely sometime in the early 1930s.  If anyone has Supplement No.13 to the GWR 1920 General Appendix please shout with its date.

 

1.  4 or 6 wheeled vehicles  must not be conveyed on trains running more than 80 miles without stopping or between - and there is then a list of sections of route (e.g Paddington to Banbury) which seem to be mainly in the 60 to 70+ miles range/near to the 80 miles.

(I believe the restriction on 6 wheelers post dated WWI, possibly implemented in 1919 - it had been considered originally in 1913/14 but was then postponed because of the war and it applied to any sort of six wheeled vehicle including passenger carrying.)

 

2.  4 or 6 wheeled vehicles must be formed rear on express trains running more than 25 miles between stops.  They must not be formed next to the engine or between bogie vehicles and if adding them to a train means an additional brakevan will be required in order to comply with the Brake Regulations that must be a 4 or 6 wheeled vehicle.  If a train reverses enroute (e.g at Swansea) then the position of any 4 or 6 hweeled vehicles must be changed to keep them at the rear when the train goes forward.

 

3.  Vehicles of less than 8 tons tare weight or with a wheelbase less than 10 feet must be marshalled behind all bogie vehicles but may be mixed with other 4 or 6 wheeled stock

 

BUT a slip portion may be marshalled behind them provided that the slip coach is less than 70 feet and any other vehicles behind it do not exceed 60 feet.

 

 

From February 1922 these Instructions were clarified specifically in respect of trains authorised to convey Horse and Carriage traffic, as follows -

 

Such traffic to be marshalled behind the last bogie vehicle but not necessarily behind other 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles.

 

BUT on a train comprised entirely of 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles horse & carriage traffic may be marshalled in any position (Note*) except Cattle Truck of less than 8 tons tare weight and/or a wheelbase of less than 10 feet must be at the rear of any passenger carrying vehicles but not necessarily behind any other 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles.

(Note * - 'In any position' was not necessarily authority to mix NPCCS vehicles among passenger carrying vehicles but simply authority to marshal them either behind the engine or behind the passenger vehicles.)

 

As ever when reading Regulations or Instructions it is important to consider what they do not say as much as what they do say and to allow for the fact that some ambiguity could creep into the Instructions.  In normal railway circumstances this would mean that in the case of any doubt the relevant office or officer should be consulted for clarification - usually that being someone who had been involved in the original drafting of the item.  The relatively long life of the 1920 Instructions suggest to me there were few difficulties with interpretation - only Horse & Carriage traffic needing to be clarified by 1922.

 

So if in doubt ask me (not that I wrote these Instructions but having written more than a few over the years I have a  reasonable understanding of how the system worked and can probably offer at least a reasoned view..

[Rivercider]

Thank you all - especially Stationmaster - for supplying info that's probably obvious to a UK person familiar with seeing the "real thing" but an obvious total mystery across the pond.  I doubt that even on the club layout I'll have a 60 wagon freight train, but it is clear now how, say, a branch-line freight might carry a "brown" parcel van behind the engine.  Again, thanks to all.

 

Check our club layout.  www.avmrc.com

 

George

I will also thank Mike for taking the time to send such a comprehensive reply.

George has asked an interesting question, and I doubt that many in the UK would be very familiar with a lot of the marshalling instructions.

Quite a lot of the instructions make obvious sense when you think about it, and I have learned a lot,

 

cheers

[Siberian Snooper]

Thanks Stationmaster, that info will be very useful when I get round to finishing some coaching stock and a trainset to run it on.

[firebirduk]

Right specially for those snooping from Siberia.  This information is valid from 1920 to 01 January 1924, including an alteration made in February 1922, and was seemingly unaltered for some years after that which although I can't accurately date was probably no earlier than the very late 1920s and most likely sometime in the early 1930s.  If anyone has Supplement No.13 to the GWR 1920 General Appendix please shout with its date.

 

1.  4 or 6 wheeled vehicles  must not be conveyed on trains running more than 80 miles without stopping or between - and there is then a list of sections of route (e.g Paddington to Banbury) which seem to be mainly in the 60 to 70+ miles range/near to the 80 miles.

(I believe the restriction on 6 wheelers post dated WWI, possibly implemented in 1919 - it had been considered originally in 1913/14 but was then postponed because of the war and it applied to any sort of six wheeled vehicle including passenger carrying.)

 

2.  4 or 6 wheeled vehicles must be formed rear on express trains running more than 25 miles between stops.  They must not be formed next to the engine or between bogie vehicles and if adding them to a train means an additional brakevan will be required in order to comply with the Brake Regulations that must be a 4 or 6 wheeled vehicle.  If a train reverses enroute (e.g at Swansea) then the position of any 4 or 6 hweeled vehicles must be changed to keep them at the rear when the train goes forward.

 

3.  Vehicles of less than 8 tons tare weight or with a wheelbase less than 10 feet must be marshalled behind all bogie vehicles but may be mixed with other 4 or 6 wheeled stock

 

BUT a slip portion may be marshalled behind them provided that the slip coach is less than 70 feet and any other vehicles behind it do not exceed 60 feet.

 

 

From February 1922 these Instructions were clarified specifically in respect of trains authorised to convey Horse and Carriage traffic, as follows -

 

Such traffic to be marshalled behind the last bogie vehicle but not necessarily behind other 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles.

 

BUT on a train comprised entirely of 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles horse & carriage traffic may be marshalled in any position (Note*) except Cattle Truck of less than 8 tons tare weight and/or a wheelbase of less than 10 feet must be at the rear of any passenger carrying vehicles but not necessarily behind any other 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles.

(Note * - 'In any position' was not necessarily authority to mix NPCCS vehicles among passenger carrying vehicles but simply authority to marshal them either behind the engine or behind the passenger vehicles.)

 

As ever when reading Regulations or Instructions it is important to consider what they do not say as much as what they do say and to allow for the fact that some ambiguity could creep into the Instructions.  In normal railway circumstances this would mean that in the case of any doubt the relevant office or officer should be consulted for clarification - usually that being someone who had been involved in the original drafting of the item.  The relatively long life of the 1920 Instructions suggest to me there were few difficulties with interpretation - only Horse & Carriage traffic needing to be clarified by 1922.

 

So if in doubt ask me (not that I wrote these Instructions but having written more than a few over the years I have a  reasonable understanding of how the system worked and can probably offer at least a reasoned view..

 

Stationmaster,

 

Many thanks for the in depth replies, it certainly cleared a lot of questions I had and will help me with my layout, Charlbury May/June 1914. 

 

Is it safe to base the above for 1914 for accuracy?  Not quite phrased that properly, still viral.........

 

Mike Spence

[The Stationmaster]

Stationmaster,

 

Many thanks for the in depth replies, it certainly cleared a lot of questions I had and will help me with my layout, Charlbury May/June 1914. 

 

Is it safe to base the above for 1914 for accuracy?  Not quite phrased that properly, still viral.........

 

Mike Spence

I think the only difference for 1914 MIGHT be in relation to six wheeled vehicles which if I understand things right were allowed a bit more latitude then.  I might have details of the proposed change in one of the Minutes Books but I will have to plough through - actually easier that I thought (fortunately the first book has an index) - an Instruction was issued in April 1916 bringing in changes which were generally similar to the 1920 Instructions  That implies that what had been permitted previously was probably less restrictive but alas I haven't got any sources in my archive which would allow me to check that.  If you apply the general principles of the 1916/20 Instruction you would definitely be safe.

[firebirduk]

I think the only difference for 1914 MIGHT be in relation to six wheeled vehicles which if I understand things right were allowed a bit more latitude then.  I might have details of the proposed change in one of the Minutes Books but I will have to plough through - actually easier that I thought (fortunately the first book has an index) - an Instruction was issued in April 1916 bringing in changes which were generally similar to the 1920 Instructions  That implies that what had been permitted previously was probably less restrictive but alas I haven't got any sources in my archive which would allow me to check that.  If you apply the general principles of the 1916/20 Instruction you would definitely be safe.

Mike,

 

Many thanks again for your clarification - with that I will proceed.

 

Mike Spence

[M.I.B]

Wherever possible, a loaded horsebox would be behind the engine,  not attached to the rear of a passenger train.  This gives a much smoother ride for the beasts.

[The Stationmaster]

Wherever possible, a loaded horsebox would be behind the engine,  not attached to the rear of a passenger train.  This gives a much smoother ride for the beasts.

But only where permitted by the Instructions outlined above.  There does not seem to have been any specific Instruction, certainly on general issue, requiring horseboxes to be marshalled front and indeed the 1922 amendment effectively forbade it (although it may well have been altered at times by notice?).  There was a Circular - which I do not have a copy of, which listed those services authorised to convey horse and carriage traffic but I can find no indication that it necessarily gave authority to vary the Instructions regarding the marshalling of 4 wheeled vehicles.

 

The 1936 Instructions regarding the conveyance of horse specifically refer to the need to take care while attaching/detaching loaded horseboxes to trains or shunting them between trains but there is definitely no stipulation, or even suggestion, that they should be marshalled front.

[firebirduk]

Wherever possible, a loaded horsebox would be behind the engine,  not attached to the rear of a passenger train.  This gives a much smoother ride for the beasts.

 

I read the post Thursday and an alarm went off in my head.  Why would a four wheeled horsebox be directly attached to a 2 cylinder engine which was prone to side to side oscillation especially in passenger train?

 

I have read of many instances of this happening to the first bogie carriage attached to a 2 cylinder engine.

 

Hope Mike has more info than I have at the present.

 

Mike Spence

[Coach bogie]

I read the post Thursday and an alarm went off in my head.  Why would a four wheeled horsebox be directly attached to a 2 cylinder engine which was prone to side to side oscillation especially in passenger train?

 

 Good point but the GWR did just that on a regular basis

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/bentleyheath/gwrbh27.jpg

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/leamingtonstation/leamington_locos/gwrls159.jpg

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/rowingtonjunction/gwrrj2158.jpg

 

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/DK4617an_Ruabon_Circa_1958.jpg

 

I was sent this pic a while ago of horses being carried in cattle wagons at the back passenger stock in a troop special during WWI. Not sure how this one fits in with the regulations?

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[M.I.B]

WW1 and troop movements would probably be allowed to do almost whatever they liked!

 

As for the rule book versus the reality of laden horseboxes first, I  get the feeling that because grooms rode with the boxes, and/or  the Squire/Lord would be at the local station for loading, coinage/words/threats/cajoling would be exchanged to ensure that the box rode at the front for the smoother ride.

 

Thanks for the late night photo searching Mike.

[The Stationmaster]

The use of cattle wagons to convey horses was permitted for military movements but not for officers' mounts - it was the usual practice to put the latter in horseboxes and all the other horses went in cattle trucks formed in teh same train (if it was a troop train.

 

As far as marshalling horseboxes front all of the pictures linked by Mike Wiltshgire accord with the relevant Instructions with the possible exception of the first one involving a 'saint' heading the train as it is carrying Class A lamps - but then we don't know how frequently it was stopping  

[Devo63]

On the subject of horses, can anyone offer a suggestion for the composition (or photos) of a train for conveying a Hunt in the early 20th century? Would the horse boxes and hound cars be attached to a regular passenger working or would a 'special' be chartered for this type of movement?

 

Dave  

[The Stationmaster]

On the subject of horses, can anyone offer a suggestion for the composition (or photos) of a train for conveying a Hunt in the early 20th century? Would the horse boxes and hound cars be attached to a regular passenger working or would a 'special' be chartered for this type of movement?

 

Dave  

Could be either.  Facilities to load horses could be made available at far more stations back then than became the case later and really all that was necessary was to give sufficient notice to the local Stationmaster regarding what was required.  However while I'm no expert on hunting it seems to have been the case that most foxhunts remained in their own area although individuals might well take their horse to another are for either sport or leisure reasons.