First generation DMU questions

[sub39h]

Hi guys,

I've been trying to search (reasonably unsuccessfully) on Google for information regarding different Class 101 formations and their uses as I want to detail up a pair of Lima Class 101s. I have almost no knowledge of early DMUs so I apologise in advance. Thanks in advance for your assistance.

 

1. How were 4 car Class 101s formed, and where were they used? I've seen some reference to DMBS TCL TCL DMBS or DMBS TSL TBS DMCL. Are these correct and if so were there any other formations?

 

2. What are the external differences between a TCL and a TSL? 

 

3. Hybrid units: did Class 101s ever commonly have trailers from other DMUs? I was thinking of maybe getting a spare Hornby Class 110 centre car and maybe sticking it into a Class 101 for a bit of variety. 

 

4. Tandem working: which other whole DMUs did 101s commonly operate with? I have seen photos of a 101 attached to a 108 I think, and also to a 117. 

 

5. I understand that sometimes first gen DMUs would pull a Mk1 brake behind them. What would happen at the end of the journey? Would the brake be detached (as it was now at its destination), or was the DMU run around the brake and reattached to travel in the opposite direction? 

 

6. Which DMUs were moved over to parcel working once their passenger service was up? I know 114s were and I am interested in getting a kit and building it into a parcel train, but were there any others please? 

 

Thanks again everyone! If anyone has any good sources for early DMU information I'd be appreciative if they could post them as well. 

[SRman]

The four car formations I have seen were DMC(L)+TS(L)+TBS+DMC(L), or DMC(L)+TBuS(L)+TBS+DMC(L) - the latter containing one of the fairly short-lived Buffet cars. These avoided the duplication of Brake Vans in the formations, although I am sure I saw a photo once of a DMBS+TS(L)+TS(L)+DMC(L) ... it is possible one of the TS vehicles was a Composite though (TC(L)).

Having said that, almost any combination was possible with the mixing and matching of blue square DMU types, with vehicles of other classes possible in the formations as well.

 

The parcels workings were most probably dropped off at their destination, to be returned on any other suitable train later.

Classes involved in parcels duties later in life include classes 114, 127, and 122 (which were reclassified 131 for the purpose).

Edited October 10, 2015 by SRman

[Robert Shrives]

Hi

1.Well 4 car 101s were a North Eastern speciality, formed DMCL, TSL or TSLRB, TBSL. DMCL

where TSLRB was the buffet vehicle.  - only six built E59573 - 8 The buffet back area was two metal panels in the normal window mounts

2. At Non Toilet end  first class line and window markers for the small saloon.

 

3. In later days the toliet fitted 101 vehicles got paired with 11x suburban motor brakes to give toilet fitted two cars but really any blue square vehicle could get paired up. 

 

4 101s were blue  square so could be run in multiple with  any other blue square.  The could only have other classes as towed stock. 

 

5 Tail load stock tended to be detached by that other extinct animal the station pilot! The main problem I expect would be having enough headshunt at terminals for a unit to run round. 

 

6 Parcels units had 101, 108,114,115, 120, for certain, early days it was just a case of removing saloon seats and piling in the bags, later on units had roller shutter doors fitted in vehicles. I cannot recall shutter fitted 101s - often they ran as two motor brakes. Certainly 114 and 115 vehicles had shutters added.

 

For books look at " a pictorial record of BR DMUs by Bian Goulding, IBSN1-900298-00-7 and  BR DMUs and diesel railcars by Brain Morrison, ISBN 0-7110-2384-0..  The Modern locomotives Illustrated bookazines have done DMU but cannot recall issue number.  There is also BR First generation DMUs in colour by Stuart Mackay  IA publication ISBN 0-7110-3156- 8.

This last one can sometimes be found at reduced price at Book law publications but as they say there are many other reputable book sellers around so worth a call or emails

hope that helps and welome to the fantastic world of the DMU!

Robert       

[giz]

The best online source for 1st generation dmu info is Railcar.co.uk.

 

This page lists the types covered:

 

http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/index.php

[Ramblin Rich]

Clive Mortimore has done some conversions of 1st gen DMUs in a thread here

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93301-dmu-conversions-for-sheffield-exchange/

Including 4 car 101 with buffet, post no. 12

[Rivercider]

Have you searched Flickr?

 

I am not sure if this answers part of question 4 or 6 or both ( I searched for 'DMU parcels')

https://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/6891644983/in/photolist-buZtXe-84ycL8-o4mckD-aaTDgi-qL9wNa-njkQER-buZm2B-7YKvoi-iHkzpj-spjS1m-gCbRqy-9Fsk8h-4v7YSz-gPJCqf-4v7Yzr-8VBn7G-6BgxAE-cH6ii1-7Fw9dF-dRhb1o-seZb4s-hJzH4y-mN8n12-8Um9sC-e5DeLT-a8HuaH-bWQfyw-brdM1y-aDNA7W-7xDRsd-pCCdDX-ijQFQN-hSkZNd-bopwdZ-aeLsW8-rA87M9-u2NLUi-5qV5Rj-6w3W6J-aS8dQD-sTDTSw-bx3B4d-bsA5Fs-dU2EnZ-naom6i-dsJtxq-cH7iUy-a83sMZ-cy4Ked-6FGWF5

 

cheers

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rivercider

[mjkerr]

different Class 101 formations and their uses as I want to detail up a pair of Lima Class 101s

What era and region are you planning to cover?

 

My main observations would be Scotland, 1980s

Most sets were fixed formation

DBMS - TS - DMS

 

However, after the fire at Ayr depot and temporary withdrawal of Class 107 units, all kinds of formations appeared

Things were so bad that a three car formation was briefly composed with no brake, and so was always joined to another set :

DMS - TS - DMBS + DMS - TS - DMS (note the set / Brake marshalled to the inside)

or

DMS - TBS - DMS + DMS - TS - DMS (quite rare TBS)

 

At the time I lived near to Barrhead rail station, and it was restricted to this diagram one Saturday

Normally, after every second turn the set would swap with one to/from Edinburgh via Shotts

Obviously this wouldn't happen, so caused some delays whilst the incoming set had to double back to Edinburgh, instead of then forming the Barrhead service

It was then due to be joined to another 3 car set, which caused all kinds of confusion as the platform already had a 3 car set, so once the passengers had been helped off was moved to another platform

Edited October 10, 2015 by mjkerr

[SRman]

TSLRB ... thanks Robert Shrives. I couldn't remember the correct designation for the trailer buffet.

I knew the four car Met-Cam units were a North Eastern specialty, but were the four car BRCW class 104 units also NE-based? I have a feeling they were (I may be mistaken but I seem to recall one such unit heading for Durham). These also had some TBS vehicles but no buffet cars.

[kenw]

Hi,

Formation of the 4 car Met Cams depended on which batch they were from;

 

The 1956/7 batch were formed DMCL-TSL-TBSL-DMCL.

Driving cars with original style front with four marker lights.

 

The 1959 batch were formed DMBS-TCL-TCL-DMCL

Driving cars with later front having just two marker lights and a 2 digit headcode below windscreens.

The DMBS also had the later style van doors on the left-hand side, the Guard's door, inward opening with droplight being the right-hand door, and the plain outward opening door being the left-hand one. These also appear to have been the only 4-car sets built with a Driving Brake car instead of the usual Trailer Brake.

 

Of course as cars were swapped between sets for maintenance, either style DMCL could be seen on either formation set.

 

The Trailer Buffet cars were built separately, in 1960, and intended as 'loose' vehicles for inclusion on certain scheduled trains, so could be included in any set as required, either in place of a TCL / TSL in a 4-car, or simply added into a 3-car or power-twin, but not a normal motor/trailer 2-car!! I've heard they were normally used on Newcastle - Carlisle / Newcastle - Middlesbrough services, but not for very long - as well as his normal duties, and checking / selling tickets, the Guard was also supposed to man the Buffet. Which naturally didn't work.!

 

That brings in a general point on DMU formations. While all 'blue square' cars were compatible, and any could be coupled to make up sets as required, as well as different sets working in multiple together, you don't, with their relative low power, get more trailer vehicles than power cars within the same set, and as, on the standard sets, all motor cars were also driving cars, this limits for maximum formation of a single unit to 4-cars (ie 2 driving motor cars and 2 trailer cars), and a driving trailer would only work in a 2-car set.

The mixing of different classes of unit was also aided by the fact that, as drivers, we simply learned "the DMU", and that was that, ANY DMU was A DMU. Regardless of type, they were all built to the same standard, unlike their modern replacements where each class needs to be learned individually.

 

Reference for formation info; A Pictorial Record of BR DMUs, Brian Golding, Cheona Publications (green, A4 sized).

invaluable for modelling DMUs, includes build formations and regional allocations including number series, main detail differences within types, photos, and scale drawings of all car types

[kenw]

I knew the four car Met-Cam units were a North Eastern specialty, but were the four car BRCW class 104 units also NE-based? I have a feeling they were (I may be mistaken but I seem to recall one such unit heading for Durham). These also had some TBS vehicles but no buffet cars.

Yes, from the same reference, the 4-car 104s were built for the North Eastern Region, and were formed DMCL-TSL-TBSL-DMCL.

I've converted one of these from a pair of Hornby 110 sets.

Although I've not seen any evidence of it, as the Met-Cam buffet cars were 'loose' vehicles, there's no reason one couldn't have been formed in a 104 set in place of the TSL, as described above.

[johnw1]

That brings in a general point on DMU formations. While all 'blue square' cars were compatible, and any could be coupled to make up sets as required, as well as different sets working in multiple together, you don't, with their relative low power, get more trailer vehicles than power cars within the same set, and as, on the standard sets, all motor cars were also driving cars, this limits for maximum formation of a single unit to 4-cars (ie 2 driving motor cars and 2 trailer cars), and a driving trailer would only work in a 2-car set.

The mixing of different classes of unit was also aided by the fact that, as drivers, we simply learned "the DMU", and that was that, ANY DMU was A DMU. Regardless of type, they were all built to the same standard, unlike their modern replacements where each class needs to be learned individually.

 

 

Not quite true that all motor cars were driving cars. There were seventeen class 124 Motor Brake Side -Corridor Lavatory (MBSK) vehicles built in 1960.

E51983 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/8331909715/

[Clive Mortimore]

Not quite true that all motor cars were driving cars. There were seventeen class 124 Motor Brake Side -Corridor Lavatory (MBSK) vehicles built in 1960.

E51983 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/8331909715/

Hi John

 

They were for the Transpennine units which were not normally mixed with other types when new. Later on the ex WR Swindon 4 car Inter-city units moved north and were used with the Transpennine coaches. By that time the trains ran in four car formations and the engines had been removed from the Non Driving Motor Brake Second Corridor coaches making them Trailer Brake Second Corridor.

 

The NER was quite keen on four car units for its longer inter-regional services between main population centres. Not only were their Met-Cam units and the BRCW ones already mentioned but also some Derby units both the original yellow diamond lightweights and the later style blue square units (class 108). One day I will pluck up the courage to cut up some Bachmann 108 coaches to make a four car Derby to go with the Met-Cam and BRCW ones (still) under construction.

 

The NER was also quite keen on mixing different types of makes of DMUs together just to keep services going. It was quite common for a BRCW trailer to be found in a Met Cam train, etc. It was even known for Met Cam DMC to be used in place of a failed Transpennine DMC.

[kenw]

Not quite true that all motor cars were driving cars. There were seventeen class 124 Motor Brake Side -Corridor Lavatory (MBSK) vehicles built in 1960.

E51983 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/8331909715/

Hi John,

Yes, but the Trans-Pennines weren't exactly standard sets. They were basically mainline Mk1 stock built as DMUs and for a specific service and as Clive has said, didn't normally tend to associate with lesser types.

In fact, looking at the picture you linked, it has buckeye couplers and a 'pullman' gangway which wouldn't be compatible with the BS gangway of standard DMU stock

[SRman]

<snipped>

 

The NER was also quite keen on mixing different types of makes of DMUs together just to keep services going. It was quite common for a BRCW trailer to be found in a Met Cam train, etc. It was even known for Met Cam DMC to be used in place of a failed Transpennine DMC.

 

You have jogged my memory, Clive. There is a picture in the DMU one of the colour books "for railway modeller and historian" series (I don't have it immediately to hand for the correct title): it shows a BRCW class 104 driving motor in plain blue at the head of a Trans-Pennine 124 unit in blue and grey.

 

There have been many mixes of types in normal service (as opposed to the rather specialised Trans-Pennine units), including classes 101, 103, 104, 108, 111, 117, 119, 120 and 121 that I can think of in photos or videos , and possibly even more types than that. Some of the mixes depend on geographical distribution of the units concerned, so, for example, I wouldn't expect to see a class 103 Park Royal vehicle in one of the four car North Eastern units that triggered this topic.

[45125]

Hi John,

Yes, but the Trans-Pennines weren't exactly standard sets. They were basically mainline Mk1 stock built as DMUs and for a specific service and as Clive has said, didn't normally tend to associate with lesser types.

In fact, looking at the picture you linked, it has buckeye couplers and a 'pullman' gangway which wouldn't be compatible with the BS gangway of standard DMU stock

As someone who works at the owning depot, the Pennines did work in mixed formations with other blue square units. There was regular instances from late 1969 were the DMCs were replaced with 101 and 104 DMCLs, and on a few occasions 101MBS and DTCLs were also used.

 

As for tail loads the sectional appendix would state what tail load could be carried over a particular route and if a unit had an engine isolated it would be highly unlikely a tail load would be conveyed.

 

Al Taylor

[Market65]

Not forgetting the Cravens class 105 parcels ''conversions'' of the mid 80's. DMBS+DMBS was the formation here. I believe that the front saloon kept the passenger seats. Again much more information can be found on the Railcar website. Just look up class105, and you will get that information.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[kenw]

As someone who works at the owning depot, the Pennines did work in mixed formations with other blue square units. There was regular instances from late 1969 were the DMCs were replaced with 101 and 104 DMCLs, and on a few occasions 101MBS and DTCLs were also used.

Interesting, as the Trans-Pennines were non-standard and for specific workings.

As the photo linked to above shows they had Pullman type gangways, when a 101 / 104 driving car was used presumably the gangways would have to be locked out of use, unless (unlikely) gangway adaptors were available? As this wouldn't allow through access for the Guard would the 101 / 104 vehicle be locked out of passenger use, and used solely to provide a driving vehicle?

[sub39h]

Thanks very much for all your replies guys! Very informative. Just some follow up information: I'm modelling BR Sectorisation era - late 80s to early 90s. I'm most interested in ER and MR practice, but would run anything interesting really - DC electrics not included.

 

Not managed to get through all the replies yet, but just a couple of follow up questions - one is related to a previous answer, and another a fresh question:

 

I understand that Blue Square units could only work with other Blue Square units/motors, but did the same apply to trailers? So could you have a non Blue Square trailer in a Blue Square unit for example?

 

Secondly, what are the differences between a Class 101 and  Class 108 underframe please? 

 

Thanks again! 

[kenw]

 Not only were their Met-Cam units and the BRCW ones already mentioned but also some Derby units both the original yellow diamond lightweights and the later style blue square units (class 108). One day I will pluck up the courage to cut up some Bachmann 108 coaches to make a four car Derby to go with the Met-Cam and BRCW ones (still) under construction.

Hi Clive,

Good luck with that one! I did consider trying this conversion, but only got as far as taking the body off the powered DMBS car. One look at the complexity of the innards, particularly the motor housing and the full length PCB under the roof, and promptly put the lid back on! Gave up on the idea of converting this chassis from a Driving Motor to a Trailer Brake, and the alternative of just converting the body, from a DMBS to a DMS would leave the rather large motor housing fully visible in the passenger saloon.

An easier option would probably be seeing if Charlie Petty of D C Kits still has any parts available to build the TBS, and use a pair of Bachmann DMS as made

[Market65]

Sorry, but blue square cannot couple to anything else. That's power cars and trailers. I.e. class 101 DMCL+class 104 TSL+Derby Lightweight DTCL(Yellow Diamond). This cannot be since the DTCL is a trailer of the wrong coupling code, and being a trailer cannot be run in a 3 car unit anyway. Also means there would be no guards van!

You have to keep to the same coupling codes throughout a DMU train. Never mix them.

A bit more information about the question of the differences of class 101 and class 108 underframes is needed, for this question can be interpreted in several ways. I.e. the real units underframes and their differences, or the models and their differences.

I think that another look at the Railcar website would be of help if it is a question relating to the prototype, or refer to the Bachmann models if it is a model question.

The prototypes were really quite similar, but the 101's had a more 'robust' underframe than the 108's, which were more like a Derby Lightweight underframe.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[kenw]

Thanks very much for all your replies guys! Very informative. Just some follow up information: I'm modelling BR Sectorisation era - late 80s to early 90s. I'm most interested in ER and MR practice, but would run anything interesting really - DC electrics not included.

 

Not managed to get through all the replies yet, but just a couple of follow up questions - one is related to a previous answer, and another a fresh question:

 

I understand that Blue Square units could only work with other Blue Square units/motors, but did the same apply to trailers? So could you have a non Blue Square trailer in a Blue Square unit for example?

 

Secondly, what are the differences between a Class 101 and  Class 108 underframe please? 

 

Thanks again! 

Hi,

Although trailer cars weren't powered, they were wired for through control, and the control equipment differed between different coupling codes, which is what the codes referred to, so no, they wouldn't be compatible with different coded sets.

By the late 80s, trailer cars were largely extinct anyway, apart perhaps from some specific areas. In the Newcastle area we still had 3-cars in the early-80s, but not 4-car, and the DMUs were replaced by Pacers from '86. We then got all sorts of odd sets draughted back in, (anything they could get that still ran, basically) to cover for all the Pacer failures!

 

I think some of the auxiliary equipment such as battery boxes were positioned differently between 101s and 108s.

[SRman]

Class 108s were also referred to as Derby Lightweights, while classes 107 and 114 were referred to as Derby Heavyweights. You can sometimes find the letters 'LW' or 'HW' stencilled on the fronts above the buffers or even in white on the blue square coupling symbol.

[Market65]

There is a problem with the ''lightweight'' name. For it first applied to the yellow diamond coded units introduced in 1955 - which were never given a TOP's code. And for my illustration I was referring to one of these cars, not a class 108 car. Regarding the stencilling, here's a photo' which I took at Beverley, where the class 101 DMBS has the LW stencilled in white above the buffers. The photo' was taken in mid 1987. The Pacer units were already causing many problems and these units had to be used for much longer than expected.

 

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

 

Edited to add that the unit illustrated has a class 108 TSL in the middle!

Edited October 11, 2015 by Market65

[corneliuslundie]

If you want photos of actual mixed DMU formations, there are a lot in DaveF's thread on this site: 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-11th-october/

though it is now 184 pages. Bwarned; you can spend hours browsing his marvellous photos.

 

Jonathan

[CloggyDog]

Before the era of interest, but nevertheless a cracking 1974 photo of 2 x 4-car sets: https://flic.kr/p/6Pvntr

 

Nearest the camera is a later BRCW set (TOPS 110) 3-car, augmented with what looks like an earlier BRCW (104) TSL (the lack of prominent window frames is the giveaway) with the trailing set a NER 4-car early BRCW (104).

 

Moving into the mid-80s, mixed formations become more common

 

101 TCL in a 120 cross-country set: https://flic.kr/p/faLCj6

 

And here's a cracking hybrid Parcels set - Cravens 105 DMBS in blue with a Met-Cam 101 DMBS in blue grey, 1986: https://flic.kr/p/buZtXe

 

Others that spring to mind are the use of Cravens 105 TSLs between a Met-Cam 101 DMBS and DMCL in Scotland - IIRC, these handful of Cravens TSLs were the only Cravens cars to receive blue/grey, to match the Met-Cams.

 

And of course a late-surviving hybrid set of the 100 DMBS/105 DMCL power-twin which worked out of Longsight in the late-80s and early-90s.

 

Also, try a search on Flickr for 'hybrid DMU': https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=hybrid%20dmu

Edited October 12, 2015 by CloggyDeux