Dapol 08

[edcayton]

So Richard Webster is clearly a clever man and a good business man. His Lionheart models are to a very high standard, but so are the prices. We are in a market economy and something is worth what someone will pay for it, and I don't blame anyone for taking the maximum profit. 

 

However, since the Dapol merger/takeover the price of the pannier tank has been reduced by about £200. Presumably there is still a profit in this, so draw your own conclusions.

 

It is becoming clear that a small 0-6-0 loco in 0 gauge can be sold at around £200-indeed this may be a psychological barrier for many people. Perhaps the opening up of 0 gauge to the mass market is upsetting to the stereotyped G0G member, ie old and well off !   I have certainly seen layouts with stock worth many thousands.

 

So maybe these loco's are a bit cheap'n'cheerful, although I think my Terrier is more than that. I've got an 08 on order, but I'll wait and see what happens with the panniers. It may well be that something else is announced before they are available.

 

No offence meant to anybody

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

[Great Western]

I think you have hit the nail on the head there, O gauge is fast becoming the new OO as in your average working joe can afford to age a decent collection.

 

With OO models fast increasing in price, in some/most cases now a sound fitted loco will cost more than a Dapol loco it's a no brainer!

 

The old saying that O or 7mm is the "senior scale" is dead, and a few members of the OGG don't like it that us joes are creeping in with our TMD/BLT etc layouts.

 

There will always be a market all be it all small for the premium models in the £1000-5000 price range for those "senior scale" mindset people, but the flip side is that the lower end, budget if you like end is expanding at a rate of knots and long may it continue !

[Captain Kernow]

It seems to me that, as in 4mm scale, we can now buy quality RTR items 'off the shelf', that only a few years ago, we would have paid a considerable sum of money for, either in 'made-up' brass (eg. Japanese or Korean) or paying someone to built a kit for you.

 

In many cases the quality of RTR these days, especially factory-applied painting and lining, is superior to almost anything that such craftsmen could produce for a 'reasonable' price, and is only now surpassed by the absolute masters of their craft, like Tony Reynaulds etc.

 

I am a very recent 'convert' to 7mm scale (not really a 'convert', I shall still be doing 4mm alongside 7mm), but it seems to me that the more important question is whether these 08s are dimensionally accurate? Surely any minor livery inaccuracies can be put right with a bit of judicious painting, but dimensional issues would require one to get one's scalpels and saws out, if the (theoretical) error was one that annoyed you.

 

I've not seen anything in the photos of these 08s that makes me think they are dimensionally compromised. They certainly look like an 08, so they definitely pass the Captain's 'Black 5 test'. 

 

If any obvious livery inaccuracies make it into the production models that go on general sale, then I agree that this is vexatious, but the thought of buying such quality, in 7mm, for a price as low as £170 or so? If you want a 7mm 08, then it seems like a no-brainer to me.

[CloggyDog]

What was the convention (if any) on red/yellow coupling rods?

 

08202 certainly was blue with red rods in 1979: https://flic.kr/p/9sNi3y Roof colour is uncertain, though.

 

Fast-forward a few years and it has yellow rods, blue roof and also the bonnet-end buffers have been replaced with Oleos

1985  https://flic.kr/p/HQKr85

1988  https://flic.kr/p/9LQJK1

 

 

I'm looking forward to my 08202 thudding onto the doormat and am sorely tempted to add a green/wasps to my order with Tower which can then be green/TOPS'd.

 

Anyone know if the later bonnet doors/cab doors style will follow at some future date, because a 13 master/slave pair is mightily tempting!

[MarshLane]

Anyone know if the later bonnet doors/cab doors style will follow at some future date, because a 13 master/slave pair is mightily tempting!

 

 

Yes, according to Dapol, the '08' will stay in the line up for a few years, with each year's model being a later version than the previous.  If you have a look at my Telford report (http://www.railblogs.co.uk/telford16#Dapol) there is more info there.  The topic of creating a Class 13 was also briefly discussed, with the comment from Dapol along the lines of, it would be quite easy to do, as its only a case of removing the cab and blocking off the body.  So yes very doable, and something i've thought about too!

 

Rich

[Osgood]

Glad I ordered a black one now!!

 

These new age budget offerings are fast becoming such good quality that most O Gauge modellers would be hard-pressed to make anything better - talk about being spoilt!

Yet they are intended for a very broad market - modellers, collectors, users, players even.

 

I'm not sure people would have been so critical of the accuracy and finish of a Lima or BigBig train at the time they were launched, because they were intended for a play rather then modelling market. But they were and still are a viable base for major improvement by skilled modellers.

 

If you pay top prices for top-end models such as the Masterpieces and Marshes and others, you expect it to be right - and that, one imagines, must take countless hours of reviewing and correcting (and reviewing and re-correcting) specs and pre-production prototypes by a number of very highly knowledgeable folk, not to mention the initial research.

 

But there is now the option of these superb value models which - but for that last huge effort to review and correct - would (superficially) almost hold their own against the craftsman-built offerings.

 

How frustrating then, that the producers of same appear to fail to acknowledge how good their offerings are in the sense that they are not considered worthy of that last final effort to analyse the prototype and get just right. Do they really mis-judge the high demands of some buyers of their products, or is it simply not economic to go through that last process?

 

How can they be persuaded to put more effort into making the products as correct as possible? How can they be assisted in this process? There must be a way to make use of the vast knowledge out there amongst modellers / users.

 

If you're not bothered about the crazy gap and misalignment between brake shoe and wheel on a first-generation Dapol wagon, you'd hardly be prepared to pay any more for a Lionheart wagon. But now you can have that same high fidelity at the lower price whether you want it or not - those new wagons are quite superb.

 

The locomotives are so close to being excellent it isn't true, but that last remaining gap between producer and the most demanding / discerning of consumers currently seems unsurmountable - by either party.

 

They'll get there - eventually!

Edited September 5, 2016 by Osgood

[Jintyman]

 that last remaining gap between producer and the most demanding of consumers currently seems unsurmountable - by either party.

 

They'll get there - eventually!

 

There is a very old saying that........ "You can please some of the people, some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time".

 

I personally agree that maybe the manufacturers could make that final little step, but then that said, so could the modeller/critic. Some are very strong in their voices of disapproval, but maybe we need a quick reality check/comparison.

Currently on the Hornby website, the BR Blue 08 Super Detailed 4mm OO 08 shunter is available for £119.99. Dapols' 7mm 08 shunter is available in this first batch for £169.00. There is only a £50 difference for approximately five times the volume. 

By all accounts the Terrier has had rave reviews about its qualities, sold out pretty quick as well, also, the 08 has just about sold out of its first batch on pre-order, so there is an audience for these products, even with their minor faults because, I believe, customers are able to see value for money, and a step to start in 7mm that certainly wasn't there 5 years ago.

I agree, with proper research these simple livery faults shouldn't be there, I also agree with the good Captain that it looks like an 08 shunter, but what I can't agree with is some who want their cake and eat it, or in other words pay cheap for perfection.

 

Jinty

[BG John]

By all accounts the Terrier has had rave reviews about its qualities

There are things about the K&ESR version that need correcting, so they're not perfect either. Whether it would have been practical for Dapol to have done anything about them at the price needs to be considered though.

[Jintyman]

There are things about the K&ESR version that need correcting, so they're not perfect either. Whether it would have been practical for Dapol to have done anything about them at the price needs to be considered though.

 

I wasn't aware of that and stand corrected,

I'm not a Southern aficionado, but I do know they sold out, and it was probably a cost mitigated decision to not correct it.

 

Jinty

[BG John]

I wasn't aware of that and stand corrected,

I'm not a Southern aficionado, but I do know they sold out, and it was probably a cost mitigated decision to not correct it.

 

Jinty

I had to point out one of the errors to the experts in the Colonel Stephens Society, who hadn't noticed!

[Hal Nail]

 

 

However, since the Dapol merger/takeover the price of the pannier tank has been reduced by about £200. Presumably there is still a profit in this, so draw your own conclusions.

 

 

I'm sure there is scope to reduce profit margins but all Dapol have to cover on these reruns is production costs, not the initial development and tooling. 

 

A sole trader is risking considerable personal capital upfront to produce a new model so is almost certainly going to want a decent return to make it worthwhile on as small a run as practical to keep the risk of unsold stock to a minimum. 

[Guest 40-something]

You shouldn't have to "get the paintbrush out" on a £200 model you've been waiting the best part of five years for !

 

I'm glad I cancelled my order now, they just don't look right to me.

If you bought a Bachmann Brassworks model you would have paid a lot more than £200 and would have had to paint the whole thing, and add glazing.  £200 for an rtr  7mm loco that looks right is a bargain in my book, the paint errors will take a couple of hours to sort out if that, and I already have the paints.  If the shades don't match then not to worry as mine is getting weathered.

 

To put it into perspective, the cheapest kit of an 08 I know, and one that I could build is the best part of £250 without wheels and motor.  And I'll still have to get the paints out.

 

I find it incredulous that in a scale where only a few years ago just about every item of stock had to be built from a kit (apart from rather expensive RTR loco's), people are complaining about some relatively minor decoration errors on £170 rtr loco!

 

C'mon folks, we are meant to be modellers.  And adults

Edited September 5, 2016 by 40-something

[jjb1970]

If you bought a Bachmann Brassworks model you would have paid a lot more than £200 and would have had to paint the whole thing, and add glazing.  £200 for an rtr  7mm loco that looks right is a bargain in my book, the paint errors will take a couple of hours to sort out if that, and I already have the paints.  If the shades don't match then not to worry as mine is getting weathered.

 

To put it into perspective, the cheapest kit of an 08 I know, and one that I could build is the best part of £250 without wheels and motor.  And I'll still have to get the paints out.

 

I find it incredulous that in a scale where only a few years ago just about every item of stock had to be built from a kit (apart from rather expensive RTR loco's), people are complaining about some relatively minor decoration errors on £170 rtr loco!

 

C'mon folks, we are meant to be modellers.  And adults

 

I agree with most of that, but, and it is a big but, if a manufacturer makes a dismissive comment to get a paint brush out to address an avoidable error on a model then that is very disappointing. This model looks superbly done and even with the error it is a bargain and a far better model than the vast majority of people would get anywhere near to if building a kit but it does not alter the fact that if Dapol have made an error then that should be pointed out and they should take it on-board.  I think it'd be rather sad if Dapol were to repeat the experience of their OO Class 73 where the tooled a superb model and then let it down with some silly avoidable lapses in QA and colours.

[Captain Kernow]

but, if a manufacturer makes a dismissive comment to get a paint brush out to address an avoidable error on a model then that is very disappointing.

I agree that it could be disappointing, but do we really know the precise context of that conversation here? After all, only one of our number was actually party to that conversation, and the intent may, in fairness, have been misinterpreted or the remark not made in the way that Mr Webster intended.

 

I really would be cautious before condemning the chap on this basis. From what I understand, his track record with Lionheart has been excellent, certainly his products are.

 

I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[jjb1970]

I agree that it could be disappointing, but do we really know the precise context of that conversation here? After all, only one of our number was actually party to that conversation, and the intent may, in fairness, have been misinterpreted or the remark not made in the way that Mr Webster intended.

 

I really would be cautious before condemning the chap on this basis. From what I understand, his track record with Lionheart has been excellent, certainly his products are.

 

I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

A fair point well made.

[deltic17]

I agree that it could be disappointing, but do we really know the precise context of that conversation here? After all, only one of our number was actually party to that conversation, and the intent may, in fairness, have been misinterpreted or the remark not made in the way that Mr Webster intended.

 

I really would be cautious before condemning the chap on this basis. From what I understand, his track record with Lionheart has been excellent, certainly his products are.

 

I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Well I was the one in on the conversation at Telford and I can 100% confirm what was said by Richard is what I detailed above. I do agree that the remark may have been made not in the way as intended but I don't think it was the best of answers. However we all make mistakes sometimes in what we say. I noticed it straight away when I saw the model - I only mentioned it to him just so he was aware of it in case the productions models hadn't been painted yet so it could be corrected for all potential purchasers of the model - I was just trying to help provide feedback on behalf of all us O guage modellers in the interests of accuracy.

 

As I've said before the model will be an absolute winner at the price and I wish them well with it but for me after all the work they've done on the model surely the painting should be the easy bit especially if it showed as YELLOW on the original drawings supplied. Having said that Heljan recently cocked up on their Class 60 in LoadHaul livery so they are not alone.

 

We all model to varying levels of accuracy and if some people are happy with a black oblong surrounding the radiator on BRBlue ones then fine. A colour problem is much easier to correct than a basic shape problem for starters.

[YesTor]

So maybe these loco's are a bit cheap'n'cheerful...

 

In fairness to Dapol, having viewed the pre-production prototype when it first appeared I wouldn't say that these are in any way "cheap 'n' cheerful", if anything quite the opposite in fact, with some very impressive detail included on the model.  I'm a 4mm scale modeller and as a rule no way interested in 7mm scale, however I convinced myself that I would buy myself a Dapol 08 simply on the basis of how impressive the pre-production model appeared, and also the fact that I like the Class 08's.

 

 

I agree with most of that, but, and it is a big but, if a manufacturer makes a dismissive comment to get a paint brush out to address an avoidable error on a model then that is very disappointing. This model looks superbly done and even with the error it is a bargain and a far better model than the vast majority of people would get anywhere near to if building a kit but it does not alter the fact that if Dapol have made an error then that should be pointed out and they should take it on-board.  I think it'd be rather sad if Dapol were to repeat the experience of their OO Class 73 where the tooled a superb model and then let it down with some silly avoidable lapses in QA and colours.

 

Agreed.

 

 

There is a very old saying that........ "You can please some of the people, some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time".

 

I agree, with proper research these simple livery faults shouldn't be there, I also agree with the good Captain that it looks like an 08 shunter, but what I can't agree with is some who want their cake and eat it, or in other words pay cheap for perfection.

 

Really this isn't about "wanting our cake and eating it", more to the point it's about getting very basic things right.  How much more expensive is it to paint the grilles the correct colour?!  There are no excuses for glaringly simple errors such as this.  And as for me now buying one of these, well, following the Dapol Class 73 livery circus I'm feeling a tad "once bitten, twice shy", so in short, my money is staying firmly in my pocket until they get the livery correct on this one too.  If that means waiting for a later edition then so be it.

Edited September 5, 2016 by YesTor

[The Bigbee Line]

I'm ready with my paint brush.  As long as it's things like the radiator surround, I'm fine.  I think I've ordered black anyway.  But seeing the green one at Bridgnorth on Saturday tempts me to change the order.  The black and yellow stripes look good, which is a key item.

 

As a general comment we are the customer and expect certain things, but we need to be thankful for what is being provided.  I wouldn't like to be a producer in todays world, they get my pat on the back.  Thanks chaps, keep up the good work.

[Greenmodelmonkey]

I agree with most of that, but, and it is a big but, if a manufacturer makes a dismissive comment to get a paint brush out to address an avoidable error on a model then that is very disappointing. This model looks superbly done and even with the error it is a bargain and a far better model than the vast majority of people would get anywhere near to if building a kit but it does not alter the fact that if Dapol have made an error then that should be pointed out and they should take it on-board.  I think it'd be rather sad if Dapol were to repeat the experience of their OO Class 73 where the tooled a superb model and then let it down with some silly avoidable lapses in QA and colours.

Agreed.... considering the amount of effort and detail they have managed to get into the moulding in the first place is absolute first class for this new model in such a prototypical way!!! But to let it down buy skimping on the last bit which is not so complicated to get right is a real shame. I have the paint, airbrush, and modelling skills to sort out as well ... but why should we have to and there are probably many others who can't or won't change because they do not have the skills or do not want to risk spoiling a decent paint job in the first place. It would be nice if Dapol took this on board as it does spoil the experince of ownership even at such a reasonable cost.

[Jintyman]

 

Really this isn't about "wanting our cake and eating it", more to the point it's about getting very basic things right.  How much more expensive is it to paint the grilles the correct colour?!  There are no excuses for glaringly simple errors such as this.  And as for me now buying one of these, well, following the Dapol Class 73 livery circus I'm feeling a tad "once bitten, twice shy", so in short, my money is staying firmly in my pocket until they get the livery correct on this one too.  If that means waiting for a later edition then so be it.

 

 

What you choose to spend your money on is your business. I want a 7mm class 08, Dapol's model is dimensionally correct and the livery application is about 90% correct, that'll do for me, considering the RRP on the model and what the model is, it's a bargain.

 

You say that you'll wait for a 'Correct' model to be put on sale before you purchase one, well that is 'wanting your cake and eat it', you want perfection before you buy at a bargain basement rate!

 

Dapol are bringing well made O gauge RTR to a wider audience than it ever was before, because they are making 7mm affordable. You've already stated that you were considering a Dapol 08 (before liverygate) as a purchase, yet you're a devout 4mm modeler, that proves that Dapol are actually on the right track in opening up 7mm to a wider market, by making 7mm affordable to more with good quality models that were previously only available as kits.

 

Yes these are small errors/mistakes, but as in general life, mistakes/errors happen, but easily rectified in this case by the modeller. I understand that the members above are saying that they shouldn't have to 'get their paintbrushes out', but when you look at the whole package, the blue 08 has just the cab roof colour incorrect and the radiator colour incorrect, out of the whole model (and by all accounts just the blue version), not just the livery, but the accuracy and detail, not to mention the reported silky smooth running, the lighting and DCC ready.  What more do you want for your money? And very little money at that!!!

 

 

 

I would hate to be a manufacturer in this current society, because they have so many opinions to feed, and too many slide rules to dodge.

 

Jinty

[Greenmodelmonkey]

What you choose to spend your money on is your business. I want a 7mm class 08, Dapol's model is dimensionally correct and the livery application is about 90% correct, that'll do for me, considering the RRP on the model and what the model is, it's a bargain.

 

You say that you'll wait for a 'Correct' model to be put on sale before you purchase one, well that is 'wanting your cake and eat it', you want perfection before you buy at a bargain basement rate!

 

Dapol are bringing well made O gauge RTR to a wider audience than it ever was before, because they are making 7mm affordable. You've already stated that you were considering a Dapol 08 (before liverygate) as a purchase, yet you're a devout 4mm modeler, that proves that Dapol are actually on the right track in opening up 7mm to a wider market, by making 7mm affordable to more with good quality models that were previously only available as kits.

 

Yes these are small errors/mistakes, but as in general life, mistakes/errors happen, but easily rectified in this case by the modeller. I understand that the members above are saying that they shouldn't have to 'get their paintbrushes out', but when you look at the whole package, the blue 08 has just the cab roof colour incorrect and the radiator colour incorrect, out of the whole model (and by all accounts just the blue version), not just the livery, but the accuracy and detail, not to mention the reported silky smooth running, the lighting and DCC ready.  What more do you want for your money? And very little money at that!!!

 

 

 

I would hate to be a manufacturer in this current society, because they have so many opinions to feed, and too many slide rules to dodge.

 

Jinty

But it wouldn't have taken much to correct a glaring error in the first place it's been so long in the development and production phase that it should be spot on by now and would have cost nothing more I suggest. Leaving the modeller to fix the problem is not the answer. Too many excuses aimed at supporting the supplier not the customer/modeller/collector. And before you say we need to support the supplier as well... we are, both in customer feedback and parting with our money (eventually).

[leopardml2341]

Considering post 227; I'm surprised it still matters.

[MarshLane]

Just a couple of observations.....

 

On the BR Blue 08202 TOPS version at Telford I was surprised on the front to see the surrounds to the radiator painted black effectively creating an oblong black box which doesn't look too good to me. As far as I have ever seen they were just all yellow there. I was also surprised to see the cab roof is black too - the standard colour was blue I believe and not black.

 

Seems a shame after waiting so long for some important bits to be painted the incorrect colour.....re painting the cab roof would of course be easy but painting the black on the front to yellow could be very tricky with masking etc!!!..............

 

 

Just a thought, and I know this debate has been raging - but could it be that 08202 had black radiator surrounds at some point, and the info or pictures that Dapol have been working from show it as such?  

 

People are jumping to the conclusion that its an error or lack of research on Dapol's part (and it may be) but it could also be that the example they have chosen was like that.  I cant immediately find any images of 08202, but its always quite feasible it was a mispaint on outcropping from the works, or even a depot modification, either of which may not have lasted all that long of course.  Just a thought - not looking to fan the flames!  Im just really happy that we've got a good, high quality, modern image model for less than £200 that is easily DCC adaptable!

 

Rich

[Hal Nail]

Just a thought, and I know this debate has been raging - but could it be that 08202 had black radiator surrounds at some point, and the info or pictures that Dapol have been working from show it as such?  

 

 

Its possible but Dapol's artwork was yellow and you would have thought Richard would have been aware if it was a deliberate change?

 

Given the flippant nature of the response I don't think its completely certain this won't end up being corrected once properly looked into, especially if, as has been suggested, that bit of the rad is a separate part. It could perhaps have been something as silly as the factory putting the wrong one on this sample? 

[Johnfromoz]

Its possible but Dapol's artwork was yellow and you would have thought Richard would have been aware if it was a deliberate change?

 

Given the flippant nature of the response I don't think its completely certain this won't end up being corrected once properly looked into, especially if, as has been suggested, that bit of the rad is a separate part. It could perhaps have been something as silly as the factory putting the wrong one on this sample?

 

Or they have used the pre-tops early blue image with black radiator surround posted by someone earlier in the thread somewhere (nine elms?). Either way, its not a major issue for me.