Driving standards

[Nick C]

10 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Edit: I wouldn't expect lib1do to be on the banned list!

Probably to stop spammers trying to sell pharmaceuticals purported to enhance such...

Edited August 27 by Nick C

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 26/08/2024 at 02:00, Pacific231G said:

What I also  don't understand is how, when the first and major accident was logged by the Highways Authority at 5.30, there were no warnings of trouble ahead  at about 7.30.

 

Because they want to keep you captive and not flitting off causing traffic jams, pollution, noise and suchlike in the surrounding towns and villages, obvious really!

 

Mike.

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Because they want to keep you captive and not flitting off causing traffic jams, pollution, noise and suchlike in the surrounding towns and villages, obvious really!

 

Mike.

That's daft as I could have taken a completely different route well away from local roads. One problem is that BBC local radio only seems to provide traffic information during weekdays implying that only journeys made for work and commuting are of any value. This is mainly a result of the cuts the last government imposed on the BBC . like making World Service (which is a far more important part of Britain's "soft power" than most people realise)  paid for out of the licence fee rather than by the Foreign Office. 

Edited August 29 by Pacific231G

[Pete the Elaner]

I was in Wales this week for the first time since the introduction of the country-wide 20 limit (Barry in S Wales to be exact).

Contrary to what I have read, the 30 limit areas have not all been turned into 20s. Built up areas like high streets & within housing or industrial estates all seem to now be 20, but through routes & town & villages have remained 30. It did not seem like a problem at all.

I found the 50 limit on the M48 all the way from the Severn bridge to the M4 more annoying. This was completely pointless & nobody else seemed to be observing it anyway, so I gave up on it too.

[jjb1970]

One of the problems with 50 limits on dual carriageways which are ignored by most drivers is it can become quite uncomfortable as it feels like you are a nuisance to everyone else. Though not as bad as in a single lane speed reduction when trucks and coaches tailgate as close as they can to try and bully people into going faster.

[Kris]

9 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I found the 50 limit on the M48 all the way from the Severn bridge to the M4 more annoying. This was completely pointless & nobody else seemed to be observing it anyway, so I gave up on it too.

When I drove that route a couple of weeks ago I also found it totally pointless. The Welsh government need to put some signs up to explain why it's there (and for the A40 near Abergavenny). 

 

I did later look up why the speed limits are in place and apparently it is because the central reservation barrier is life expired so is considered to be dangerous. Despite the barriers age being known, it would appear that the Welsh government have failed to budget to replace it. 

[Pete the Elaner]

32 minutes ago, Kris said:

I did later look up why the speed limits are in place and apparently it is because the central reservation barrier is life expired so is considered to be dangerous. Despite the barriers age being known, it would appear that the Welsh government have failed to budget to replace it. 

 

What a nonsense excuse. The national limit (ie unless otherwise marked) for cars & motorcycles on a single carriageway road is 60. How can a life-expired barrier possibly be more dangerous than not having one at all?

[GrumpyPenguin]

7 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

trucks and coaches tailgate as close as they can to try and bully people into going faster.

I'm not condoning truck & coach drivers for tailgating (I hold an HGV ClassII* myself). However, because HGV/coach speedometers are calibrated that means that their indicated 50mph is actually 50mph, whereas an indicated 50mph on your uncalibrated car/van speedometer is more like 47mph.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Just managed to avoid skittling a biker last night. A queue of traffic coming off the Snake Pass and the idiot came out of the line and started coming towards me down the middle of my side of the road. Unfortunately this is not unusual so I go into anticipation mode approaching that particular point. We've already had three biker fatalities within the next mile or so this year and a total of nine in the surrounding area in the five weeks.

 

Fortunately it's a situation I am used to and was able to brake and get into the gutter as he squeezed through between me and the opposing traffic without hitting either of us. If I had been a visitor not familiar with the location and driving to the permitted speed he could well have been number ten.

[Pete the Elaner]

19 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

I'm not condoning truck & coach drivers for tailgating (I hold an HGV ClassII* myself). However, because HGV/coach speedometers are calibrated that means that their indicated 50mph is actually 50mph, whereas an indicated 50mph on your uncalibrated car/van speedometer is more like 47mph.

 

I had often considered that when doing 50 through roadworks on a motorway & was being overtaken by lorries. Even on longer restricted sections, I get past them within a couple of minutes when we are back to 70mph, so how much time I have I really lost by doing 3-4mph less?

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Just managed to avoid skittling a biker last night. A queue of traffic coming off the Snake Pass and the idiot came out of the line and started coming towards me down the middle of my side of the road. Unfortunately this is not unusual so I go into anticipation mode approaching that particular point. We've already had three biker fatalities within the next mile or so this year and a total of nine in the surrounding area in the five weeks.

 

Fortunately it's a situation I am used to and was able to brake and get into the gutter as he squeezed through between me and the opposing traffic without hitting either of us. If I had been a visitor not familiar with the location and driving to the permitted speed he could well have been number ten.

 

Some fail to think about if drivers have seen them & reacted.

I was stuck in a queue on the M25 yesterday. About 5 bikers filtered past. A friend of mine told me that when filtering, he used to watch the hands of the drivers & if they moved them towards the top of the steering wheel, that was a sign they were likely to steer into him.

Only 2 of the 5 yesterday were going slowly enough to observe this. I know we should all check our mirrors before moving, but there were 4 emergency vehicles trying to get through at various times. If I see their blue lights in my left mirror, it is all too easy to react to them as quickly as possible without checking my other mirror first. I know this is poor & in hindsight many of us think 'must do better next time', but we don't get it right all the time.

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

What a nonsense excuse. The national limit (ie unless otherwise marked) for cars & motorcycles on a single carriageway road is 60. How can a life-expired barrier possibly be more dangerous than not having one at all?

I wouldn't be surprised if they want to reduce that too.

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

I'm not condoning truck & coach drivers for tailgating (I hold an HGV ClassII* myself). However, because HGV/coach speedometers are calibrated that means that their indicated 50mph is actually 50mph, whereas an indicated 50mph on your uncalibrated car/van speedometer is more like 47mph.

 

I get that, but as Pete the Elaner say's, what difference does a few minutes at 47mph rather than 50mph make? I used to commute between Carlisle and Sellafield using the A595 which is (or was) mainly single carriageway, returning home from day shift especially (our shift time was 7 - 7) I'd regularly see boy racers in Evo's and Impreza STi's go past me at silly speeds only to see the same cars a few vehicles ahead at a traffic light queue in Carlisle. The speedo is the only instrument we have unless using a satnav with speed readout, so the speedo is the instrument to monitor for speed. 

[johnofwessex]

I have just come back from my holidays - Somerset to Norfolk via the A303/M3/M25/A1m(out)M11 (back) A11

 

I often see takes of Chaos on the M5 following an accident and there were many candidates for a place in Broadmoor in evidence.

 

Now given that an accident on the Motorway causes Chaos and of course as these are busy fast roads so the consequences of a collision are potentially more serious than other roads, why isnt there either some sort of extra charge for being a prat on the motorway, OR a higher penalty ie a ban for using a mobile instead of 6 points or double the length of ban for drink driving?

[GrumpyPenguin]

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I had often considered that when doing 50 through roadworks on a motorway & was being overtaken by lorries. Even on longer restricted sections, I get past them within a couple of minutes when we are back to 70mph, so how much time I have I really lost by doing 3-4mph less?

Problem with that is because some drivers of HGV/PCV's want to do a real 50mph and will use the size of their vehicles to intimidate you, often in a dangerous manner.

Some employers monitor the speeds their fleet to ensure that they are running at the maximum legal speeds and put pressure on their drivers to do so. It should not be like that of course, but road haulage is a very competative industry and in this day and age of "wanting it tomorrow and free shipping" we are all partly to blame for this.

 

There are times when it is better to "go with the flow" for your own well being, better than ending up as the filling between a double 44t sandwich.

 

Again (just in case someone missed my earlier post) I don't condone professional drivers that don't drive in a professional manner.

[GrumpyPenguin]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I get that, but as Pete the Elaner say's, what difference does a few minutes at 47mph rather than 50mph make?

Actually (with respect) I don't think you do - see my later post, just before this one for more information.

 

A couple of years ago I attended a speed awareness course (not through HGV driving) and the people running the course actually made quite an issue/discussion on this very subject.

 

Maybe it's about time speedometers were calibrated as part of ther MOT ?

Before anyone states "ah, but you could fit different sized wheels &/or tyres for the MOT" the sizes are recorded on the Tachometer Calibration Plate for HGV/PCV's.

[MrWolf]

It's all very well calibrating the speedometer, it's the drivers that are the problem.

[bimble]

whilst you could make the argument that HGV speedos are calibrated for 50mph better than those in cars, tail-gating or trying to intimidate those driving slower than you'd like is certainly an example of low driving standards... especially if you're supposed to be a professional driver of a vehicle which could do a serious amount of damage if something untoward happens.

 

Saying that, I did have to drive up the M1 to Yorkshire last weekend and the number of people doing 55-65 in the middle lane was infuriating...

[jjb1970]

9 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Actually (with respect) I don't think you do - see my later post, just before this one for more information.

 

A couple of years ago I attended a speed awareness course (not through HGV driving) and the people running the course actually made quite an issue/discussion on this very subject.

 

Maybe it's about time speedometers were calibrated as part of ther MOT ?

Before anyone states "ah, but you could fit different sized wheels &/or tyres for the MOT" the sizes are recorded on the Tachometer Calibration Plate for HGV/PCV's.

 

With respect, I do. Put aside the technical issue, it's nothing to do with accuracy of the speedometer, it's an issue of dangerous driving and trying to bully other road users. If maintaining a safe distance from the driver ahead means driving at 47mph rather than 50mph then you drive at 47mph until it's safe to overtake. There's a very good reason that the law prohibits car speedometers from under reading speed and allows a margin to over read, if you drive up to the speed limit using your speedo then you will not break the speed limit if it over reads slightly.

 

On callibration, callibrated to what degree of accuracy/acceptable error?

Edited September 1 by jjb1970

[GrumpyPenguin]

11 hours ago, bimble said:

whilst you could make the argument that HGV speedos are calibrated for 50mph better than those in cars, tail-gating or trying to intimidate those driving slower than you'd like is certainly an example of low driving standards... especially if you're supposed to be a professional driver of a vehicle which could do a serious amount of damage if something untoward happens.

 

Saying that, I did have to drive up the M1 to Yorkshire last weekend and the number of people doing 55-65 in the middle lane was infuriating...

It's not an argument, its a fact.

 

Again, I reiterate, I don't condone the actions of HGV/PCV drivers that have standards that fall short of true professionalism. I've given some reasons why it happens (e.g. pressure from employers, not an excuse but with mouths to feed a certain amount of human nature takes over).

 

In a way I have been lucky and could (as an agency driver mostly) pick & choose who I drove for. I always carried enough resources with me to get home as on a number of occasions when pressurised by by an arrogant transport manager or prissy little 18YO in the office threatend to lock the truck up where is was (anywhere in the country) and post the keys back to them.

 

I'm not trying to start a car v HGV/PCV war here, just trying to make those that are unaware of how the transport industry works & how it can effect others.

As an example, how many were not aware that HGV/PCV speedometer/tachographs were actually calibrated ?

 

 

[GrumpyPenguin]

8 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

With respect, I do. Put aside the technical issue, it's nothing to do with accuracy of the speedometer, it's an issue of dangerous driving and trying to bully other road users. If maintaining a safe distance from the driver ahead means driving at 47mph rather than 50mph then you drive at 47mph until it's safe to overtake. There's a very good reason that the law prohibits car speedometers from under reading speed and allows a margin to over read, if you drive up to the speed limit using your speedo then you will not break the speed limit if it over reads slightly.

 

On callibration, callibrated to what degree of accuracy/acceptable error?

In essence I agree about "driving at 47mph" if your uncalibrated speedo reads 50mph. I'm just trying to point out the difference. If you are in a 50mph area mixing it with the HGV/PCV's then go with the flow & maybe double check with a SatNag/Google maps (not factory fitted ones).

 

FWIW a few mph on a long truck journey can make the difference between making a delivery or not.

 

AFAIK (& confirmed by a technician at a calibration facility) the accuracy is to the same standards used by the Police for their vehicles and other speed recirded devices.

[Deeps]

35 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

AFAIK (& confirmed by a technician at a calibration facility) the accuracy is to the same standards used by the Police for their vehicles and other speed recirded devices.

I have often thought that a cars speedo should be checked during an annual service, and probably during MOT’s.

 

Out of interest, whilst in the RN I spent some time in a nuclear repair facility and I was responsible for the provision of pressure test rigs. The rigs were issued with documentation showing the gauges were calibrated across the full range of the test parameters. However, the documentation only proved that the gauges were indicating correctly at the time of the calibration so if the gauge ‘took a knock’ during transit to the submarine there was a chance that it would not be accurate during the test. To mitigate this the gauge was fully checked on return of the rig to prove it remained properly calibrated - if not the test would have to be repeated. 

 

Is the same principle applied to Police vehicles HGV/PCV’s etc, as it could raise questions as to the reliability of speeding convictions?

[Reorte]

57 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

FWIW a few mph on a long truck journey can make the difference between making a delivery or not.

Then their timings are too tight.

 

Whilst what you're saying is probably an accurate enough explanation it's no justification and no-one should feel under pressure to go along with it.

[GrumpyPenguin]

6 hours ago, Deeps said:

Out of interest, whilst in the RN I spent some time in a nuclear repair facility and I was responsible for the provision of pressure test rigs. The rigs were issued with documentation showing the gauges were calibrated across the full range of the test parameters. However, the documentation only proved that the gauges were indicating correctly at the time of the calibration so if the gauge ‘took a knock’ during transit to the submarine there was a chance that it would not be accurate during the test. To mitigate this the gauge was fully checked on return of the rig to prove it remained properly calibrated - if not the test would have to be repeated. 

 

Is the same principle applied to Police vehicles HGV/PCV’s etc, as it could raise questions as to the reliability of speeding convictions?

AFAIK equipment used for speed enforcement  (mobile or static) should be checked before & after use - occasionally, lack of correct checking proceedure has been used to get speeding convictions thrown out of court.

 

TBH, I'm not too sure regarding checking HGV/PCV speedometer accuracy - part from the speedometer itself  and the tachometer the speeds are alsom monitored by the on board telematics which get their data from various souces including Sat Nav (maybe even CCTV as well) - all these systems can "talk" to each other so are all able to "grass up" an erroneous instrument.

[GrumpyPenguin]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

Then their timings are too tight.

 

Whilst what you're saying is probably an accurate enough explanation it's no justification and no-one should feel under pressure to go along with it.

The timings are often to tight, far too tight - as an example, if, on multidrop you could comfortably carry out 10 drops/pickups you would get 12.

 

I often took the "extras" back, but again, I had a certain choice in who I drove for, not every driver is able to if he wants to keep his job.