Driving standards

[TheQ]

On the A17 just west of Kings Lynn after a rebuild they put in long offset junctions with dividers ( instead of crossroads, though some crossroads remain but with dividers where there is limited space). All covered by the national speed limit sign...

After several drivers got off speeding offences for going over 60 in the divided sections, the highways had to put up 60mph signs at all the divided sections.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

As an aside, I have done a couple of speed awareness courses, with about 25 attending each one.

All knew that the speed limit for a car is 30 in a built up area & 70 on a motorway. Only about 20% of us knew it was 60 for a rural single carriageway & 70 for a dual. That worried me & still does.

Wouldn't it be better to have signs displaying the actual speed limit, rather than having people guessing, based on what they vaguely remember from learning to drive decades ago?

 

If a specialised vehicle has a lower speed limit, then it's up to the driver to recognise that their particular vehicle, might have a lower speed limit. No dual/multiple speed limit signs would be required.

[Deeps]

8 minutes ago, SM42 said:

Turning cars are in the central reservation. 

I agree that the ‘apparent’ speed restriction seems silly but it is also a confusing subject, which is why we should have definitive advice.

 

The reasoning for a (potential) speed reduction for this type of junction is that for a car to reach the central reservation they will first have to have driven, relatively slowly, squarely across the path of vehicles approaching at 70 mph. Then they will have to join traffic doing 70 mph, with no slip road to gain safe speed themselves.

 

At the junction I first highlighted this can mean waiting up to 5 minutes until conditions allow.

 

If the money was available all such junctions would be updated to remove the hazard; either motorway style, traffic lights or roundabouts.

[kevinlms]

3 minutes ago, Deeps said:

I agree that the ‘apparent’ speed restriction seems silly but it is also a confusing subject, which is why we should have definitive advice.

 

The reasoning for a (potential) speed reduction for this type of junction is that for a car to reach the central reservation they will first have to have driven, relatively slowly, squarely across the path of vehicles approaching at 70 mph. Then they will have to join traffic doing 70 mph, with no slip road to gain safe speed themselves.

 

At the junction I first highlighted this can mean waiting up to 5 minutes until conditions allow.

 

If the money was available all such junctions would be updated to remove the hazard; either motorway style, traffic lights or roundabouts.

In similiar cases in Australia, such dangerous crossings have a reduced speed limit zone in advance.

Cheaper to put a few signs up (usually 80kmh [50mph]) and have them reinforced with an occasional speed camera. Currently $247 (127.30 GBP at todays exchange rate) plus 1 demerit point for detected speeds* of less than 10kph over for violators, in Victoria. Higher penalties for faster speeds.

 

* Tolerance of 3kmh for mobile cameras.

[black and decker boy]

The difference between 60mph and 70mph for crossing traffic to negotiate is pretty minimal (but still hurts if got wrong)

 

in a 9 second reaction & acceleration phase for average family car, the difference in distance travelled by the approaching traffic is 40 metres.

 

if Police & Councils are truly worried about the safety of such crossings then 30/40/50mph limits should (would) be imposed.

 

if Police just want their quota and bonus then they’d do nothing and fine very confused and bemused motorists who drive at 70mph on a dual carriageway with a gap (but ultimately end in court when someone pushes back).

 

as for those who don’t know the limits as set out by our laws and explained in the Highway Code, nothing surprises me. Rules always apply to others, especially late running mothers on way to school (*other idiots exist too).

[fulton]

On 14/08/2024 at 14:17, Coldgunner said:

Sometimes even if right turns are allowed its easier to take the left down to the next roundabout and come back on yourself by the time you've waited.

Currently driving a van in Germany, never happy in busy cities turning right at lights, if you get a flashing red light, it  means you can turn right but pedestrians and cyclists have right of way, at least sitting on the right gives me more of a view. Never happy mixing with the trams as well!

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

 

Well that's silly.

Very!

Quote

 

There may be a gap but it still a central reservation dividing the carriageway. 

Turning cars are in the central reservation. 

 

There is a central divider separating the opposing lanes of traffic 

 

The gap is irrelevant. 

 

I agree, but they appear to be arguing that because there isn't any divider there there's no central reservation and hence no divided carriageways, just one carriageway. Which is silly.

 

[mozzer models]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

I was talking to someone once who'd just been on on and insisted it was 60 on a dual carriageway - said he thought it was 70 but was told it was 60 on the course. Hope he was just getting confused about the course, rather than the course getting things wrong.

 

I made sure he was talking about cars (I'd have to look up the numbers of other classes of vehicle - I don't drive those other ones before anyone asks!)

if you are in a non car based van than the speed is 60 on a dual carriageway but still 70 on a motorway this may be were he is getting mixed up

Edited August 15 by mozzer models

[Reorte]

23 minutes ago, mozzer models said:

if you are in a non car based van than the speed is 60 on a dual carriageway but still 70 on a motorway this may be were he is getting mixed up

It's possible. I did say "definitely cars?" but I know he drives a van.

[bimble]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Wouldn't it be better to have signs displaying the actual speed limit, rather than having people guessing, based on what they vaguely remember from learning to drive decades ago?

 

If a specialised vehicle has a lower speed limit, then it's up to the driver to recognise that their particular vehicle, might have a lower speed limit. No dual/multiple speed limit signs would be required.

 

That is the entire point of the national speed limit sign, a single sign for roads that have different speed limits for different vehicle types.

 

If people are unable to remember what speed their vehicle is allowed to do then perhaps those people should refrain from driving those vehicles until they've had a refresher course.  For the safety of us all.

[SM42]

5 hours ago, mozzer models said:

if you are in a non car based van than the speed is 60 on a dual carriageway but still 70 on a motorway this may be were he is getting mixed up

 

I believe there is a 2.5 ton limit as well.

 

It can get complex when some forces consider a Citroen Berlingo as a van and some as a car derived van.

 

How are you supposed to deal with different interpretations on the law by different forces? 

 

Andy

[black and decker boy]

Ultimately this is all theoretical as we all know speed limits are set by the driver, especially if kettle is on or late for food.

 

signs are decoration and not to be observed or obeyed 

 

I’ve found the closer to london, the more these rules apply and the more mad max it becomes.

[MrWolf]

I remember working in Forest Gate London twenty years ago, absolutely no regard for road rules. Stop at red light, don't block yellow box (probably cameras everywhere) and people drive around you shouting abuse until the whole junction is jammed up.

 

If it wasn't raining I'd have thought it was downtown Asmara all over again.

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, bimble said:

 

That is the entire point of the national speed limit sign, a single sign for roads that have different speed limits for different vehicle types.

 

If people are unable to remember what speed their vehicle is allowed to do then perhaps those people should refrain from driving those vehicles until they've had a refresher course.  For the safety of us all.

Funny how we get by with a universal range of speed limit signs.

 

Those same non-clear signs were discontinued years ago, to save confusion. In fact one near me was removed about 3 years ago (the last I'd seen for years) and replaced by one that says 100 (kmh). Now no one can say they are unsure.

 

You seem to be identifying a problem that many don't understand the meaning of, yet there are solutions!

 

If apparently many don't understand the existing sign, something is wrong. Identification of those getting it wrong is required and either educate them on the meaning or take their licence off them. Or change the sign.

Edited August 16 by kevinlms
More info

[black and decker boy]

Oxfordshire County Council are doing their best, many derestricted roads are now 50, many urban/villages are now 20 (and spreading fast)

 

they’ve certainly been keeping the sign makers in profit 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

It can get complex when some forces consider a Citroen Berlingo as a van and some as a car derived van.

 

I've thought of my Berlingo as a van-derived car and happily driven it at 70 mph on dual carriageways, although it's mostly used for local trips, so there's not the often the chance. The Zafira is used as the long-distance car, largely because on longer trips we've needed the luggage space - equally van-like but apparently definitely a car.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

Oxfordshire County Council are doing their best, many derestricted roads are now 50, many urban/villages are now 20 (and spreading fast)

 

they’ve certainly been keeping the sign makers in profit 

Glad I don't live in Oxfordshire!

[Pete the Elaner]

12 hours ago, bimble said:

 

That is the entire point of the national speed limit sign, a single sign for roads that have different speed limits for different vehicle types.

 

If people are unable to remember what speed their vehicle is allowed to do then perhaps those people should refrain from driving those vehicles until they've had a refresher course.  For the safety of us all.

 

Unfortunately there is no refresher course. We all pass our test & that is it for life. Some care about maintaining good standards, but unfortunately others could not care less.

 

I have long believed that refresher tests would be good: re-test every 5 years & if you fail, you have 6 months to pass before losing your licence.

It would require an overhaul of the testing & teaching structure, causing that industry to grow massively but provide much better driving standards therefore less delays during journeys.

Any arguments about the system struggling to cope would be unfounded because it would have to grow through necessity. "There is a long wait for tests" simply would not fly with professional drivers such as those of lorries, taxis or buses like it does they way learners are being made to wait for months.

The show-stopping problem is that such an overhaul would be a massive vote-loser for whichever government would implement it. A large part of the population don't want the embarrassment of being told that their driving is poor.

[black and decker boy]

39 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Unfortunately there is no refresher course. We all pass our test & that is it for life. Some care about maintaining good standards, but unfortunately others could not care less.

 

I have long believed that refresher tests would be good: re-test every 5 years & if you fail, you have 6 months to pass before losing your licence.

It would require an overhaul of the testing & teaching structure, causing that industry to grow massively but provide much better driving standards therefore less delays during journeys.

Any arguments about the system struggling to cope would be unfounded because it would have to grow through necessity. "There is a long wait for tests" simply would not fly with professional drivers such as those of lorries, taxis or buses like it does they way learners are being made to wait for months.

The show-stopping problem is that such an overhaul would be a massive vote-loser for whichever government would implement it. A large part of the population don't want the embarrassment of being told that their driving is poor.

I think renewing the theory test every 5 or 10 years would be a good compromise. It could be tied in with the 10year renewal of the photocard license.

 

the infrastructure for this already exists as I have to do touch screen tests at the same PearsonVue centres for my construction qualifications 

 

at work I’ve had to do regular driving assessments (as part of the company insurance) but to be honest, I drive like a grandma in them and then revert immediately to my normal standard (drive it like you stole it) once the assessor has got out.

 

at least a theory test would make people read the Highway Code?

[bimble]

43 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Unfortunately there is no refresher course. We all pass our test & that is it for life. Some care about maintaining good standards, but unfortunately others could not care less.

 

 

There are no refresher tests but there is nothing stopping you from doing a course or booking a lesson (or two) with a driving instructor to refresh your knowledge and skills as a current holder of a driving license.

 

Or even just having a read through of the latest version of the Highway Code.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, bimble said:

 

There are no refresher tests but there is nothing stopping you from doing a course or booking a lesson (or two) with a driving instructor to refresh your knowledge and skills as a current holder of a driving license.

 

Or even just having a read through of the latest version of the Highway Code.

 

I don't consider myself a problem. I am always re-assessing myself & others, asking why I/they do this/that, could I do it better? watching videos of incidents etc. I bought a new version of the Highway Code not too long ago but reading through it was a bit tedious.

I have also considered doing an IAM course.

 

The worst offenders of driving standards out there are those with the attitude of "I've got my licence so I can do what I want now". Those with this attitude will never bother doing anything unless they are forced to.

[Reorte]

8 minutes ago, bimble said:

 

There are no refresher tests but there is nothing stopping you from doing a course or booking a lesson (or two) with a driving instructor to refresh your knowledge and skills as a current holder of a driving license.

 

Or even just having a read through of the latest version of the Highway Code.

Anyone who does that is rather less likely than average to need to do a refresher. It would be of most benefit to those who don't.

 

I fully agree with the idea behind periodic re-tests. I think I'd favour ten years rather than five but that's quibbling about details, the idea is very sound regardless.

[Nick C]

12 hours ago, SM42 said:

It can get complex when some forces consider a Citroen Berlingo as a van and some as a car derived van.

 

How are you supposed to deal with different interpretations on the law by different forces? 

 

You don't - the DVLA make it clear:

"If your van is a CDV, it will be recorded as such under ‘body type’ on the vehicle’s registration document (V5C). If there is any other entry under ‘body type’ the vehicle is not registered as a car derived van and will be subject to speeds lower than the national limits."

 

9 minutes ago, bimble said:

 

There are no refresher tests but there is nothing stopping you from doing a course or booking a lesson (or two) with a driving instructor to refresh your knowledge and skills as a current holder of a driving license.

 

Or even just having a read through of the latest version of the Highway Code.

I did the IAM Roadsmart advanced driving course a few years ago - It was quite illuminating and well worth doing.

[johnofwessex]

I would suggest that to start with

 

1. There are issues over driver training, I suggest that it should include some sort of 'road safety' session looking at what happens when things go wrong, and an interview with a suitably qualified person to weed out any obvious nutters.

2. Enforcement.  Simple message, act like a and you lose your licence, in the spot in some circumstances, and

3. It wont be easy to get it back, but

4. If you are caught driving without a license or when banned then eternal damnation will be the soft option and

5. If you employ drivers then your neck is on the block if you dont supervise them properly and that includes delivery services whether they are allegedly self employed or not

[Reorte]

No hardship excuses for avoiding losing your licence. To get to the point where you'd lose it you've either had to have had multiple warnings and hence chances already, or driven so extremely badly that your judgement clearly isn't up to the task.