Driving standards

[Deeps]

29 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

I suggest that the default on dual carriageways should be 60mph unless built to 'motorway' standards

I quite agree. 

 

‘A’ road upgrades in Cornwall progress at a glacial rate and one of the most hazardous ‘temporary’ solutions to improving traffic flow is where they have created three lane stretches of road. The A38 between Saltash and Trerulefoot has several of them and the consequent death rate is prodigious, despite the 50 mph speed limit on them.

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Deeps said:

 

‘A’ road upgrades in Cornwall progress at a glacial rate and one of the most hazardous ‘temporary’ solutions to improving traffic flow is where they have created three lane stretches of road. 

 

That arrangement has been eliminated elsewhere long since, at least in my experience, either replaced by two wide lanes (which does not perfectly eliminate the hazard) or, as with long stretches of the A303, making it very clearly two lanes in one direction and one, with a solid white no overtaking line, in the other (better but not idiot-proof).

Edited August 14 by Compound2632

[Deeps]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That arrangement has been eliminated elsewhere long since, at least in my experience, either replaced by two wide lanes (which does not perfectly eliminate the hazard) or, as with long stretches of the A303, making it very clearly two lanes in one direction and one, with a solid white no overtaking line, in the other (better but not idiot-proof).

I have navigated all incarnations of that stretch of the A303 over the years and the current arrangement is the best, although it is a shame they couldn’t have funded a proper dual carriageway when the bypass was built. When it was two wide lanes for the entire length you ended playing chicken with oncoming vehicles when you were both overtaking. Not ideal.

 

The problem with the ‘two lanes in one direction’ is that there is a rush to get past the slow moving traffic before the second lane ends, and invariably the overtaking traffic is held up by a dawdler at the front with predictable results.

 

The three lane arrangement I referred to for the A38 was a logical solution to the fact that there are steep hills where lorries and caravans struggle and, again, there wasn’t the funding available to dual the road.

 

My solution to the problem is quite simple - two lanes only with double white lines down the middle so no overtaking allowed. Progress will be annoyingly slow but people won’t die.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Deeps said:

I have navigated all incarnations of that stretch of the A303 over the years and the current arrangement is the best, although it is a shame they couldn’t have funded a proper dual carriageway when the bypass was built. When it was two wide lanes for the entire length you ended playing chicken with oncoming vehicles when you were both overtaking. Not ideal.

 

The problem with the ‘two lanes in one direction’ is that there is a rush to get past the slow moving traffic before the second lane ends, and invariably the overtaking traffic is held up by a dawdler at the front with predictable results.

 

The three lane arrangement I referred to for the A38 was a logical solution to the fact that there are steep hills where lorries and caravans struggle and, again, there wasn’t the funding available to dual the road.

 

My solution to the problem is quite simple - two lanes only with double white lines down the middle so no overtaking allowed. Progress will be annoyingly slow but people won’t die.

 

It is true that on  summer Saturdays the A303 arrangement breaks down because the end of each two-lane section becomes a pinch-point as traffic merges, leading to stop-start progress. But that is simply because there is too much traffic for the road. Since it only occurs on eight or nine days per year, it's probably not worth further investment.

[Jol Wilkinson]

8 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

I was travelling on the A303 on Saturday from Stonehenge to the A34

 

As ever it was 'interesting' but it seems to me that there are a lot of junctions that are entirely unsuitable for a 70mph road with nowhere near enough visibility for traffic to join safely.

 

If we had HM Highway Inspectorate that might make things interesting for Road Maintenance & Design to say the least

The A12 dual carriageway south of Ipswich is similar, with many minor road junctions with a small slip "off" and virtually no "slip" on. Great for a 70mph limit road and impatient locals. 

[black and decker boy]

7 hours ago, Deeps said:

We do not have any motorways in Cornwall but they are slowly upgrading ‘A’ roads into dual carriageways. Eventually they will reach Lands End where, presumably, there will be a massive car park!

 

The main problems are with precisely the type of junction you show; no slip roads to seamlessly join the carriageway and, worse still, traffic allowed to cross carriageways to turn right onto or off of the carriageway. A nightmare on Bank Holidays etc.

 

A prime example is where the B3257 joins the A30. I use this junction regularly and it is lethal, particularly as most of the through traffic will be doing at least 70 as they pass when the layout means that the limit should be 60 (70 only being applicable on dual carriageways when there is a central reservation which, at this junction, there is not, for obvious reasons). Can you imagine trying to drive across traffic on the M6  that way?

 

 

In consequence, when wanting to turn off the A30 I will take something of a detour to use a junction with motorway style slip roads etc. which will add 6 miles to my journey. Not exactly conducive to saving the polar bears.

That photo clearly shows a dual carriageway. 70mph is therefore an allowable limit.
 

councils / highway authority can impose a lower limit, add traffic calming it other mitigations of accident rates are very higher than normal.

many such junctions near me have speed cameras in advance, extra warning signs and better road markings. Really bad junctions get the centre gap blocked.

 

There are national design standards (DMRB)  but they never apply retrospectively and don’t apply necessarily to local roads or private roads. Maintenance standards are set locally by each highway authority.

 

Current industry estimates are highway maintenance has around a £14bn backlog. Local highway maintenance is from council tax with some central grant funding. Upgrades are typically grant funded or from developer contributions (new houses = new infrastructure)

 

if you retrospectively apply the full standards (ie introduce a HMRI (roads)) then  highways quickly become unaffordable without either road charging or big tax hikes. U.K. population generally don’t want either…..

[Reorte]

5 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

Thats one of the 'less worse' ones!

 

I suggest that the default on dual carriageways should be 60mph unless built to 'motorway' standards

To be fair I've used give way junctions on dual carriageways before, semi-regularly on the A66. Whether or not it's a problem really depends upon the levels of traffic and the visibility (but I believe the A303 is notoriously busy).

[Deeps]

7 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

That photo clearly shows a dual carriageway. 70mph is therefore an allowable limit.

This topic was discussed a while back and I have to say I remain confused. My research on the matter was prompted by drivers in Cornwall getting speeding convictions for exceeding 60 mph when passing junctions, such as the one in the image I showed, on a dual carriageway on the A38. Nominally it would be 70 mph but the Highway Code states the following:

 

 

Therefore the police use the fact that where there is no clearly defined central reservation, such as on the image I showed, the limit is 60 mph. 

 

Whether this is correct or not is open to debate. I don’t know for sure, and I am not trying to start an argument, but I mention it as a word of caution. 

 

Is there a qualified member on our web who can clarify the rules please?

[johnofwessex]

8 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

.......................................

 

if you retrospectively apply the full standards (ie introduce a HMRI (roads)) then  highways quickly become unaffordable without either road charging or big tax hikes. U.K. population generally don’t want either…..

 

Or put in speed limits which have many benefits

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, Deeps said:

This topic was discussed a while back and I have to say I remain confused. My research on the matter was prompted by drivers in Cornwall getting speeding convictions for exceeding 60 mph when passing junctions, such as the one in the image I showed, on a dual carriageway on the A38. Nominally it would be 70 mph but the Highway Code states the following:

 

 

Therefore the police use the fact that where there is no clearly defined central reservation, such as on the image I showed, the limit is 60 mph. 

 

Whether this is correct or not is open to debate. I don’t know for sure, and I am not trying to start an argument, but I mention it as a word of caution. 

 

Is there a qualified member on our web who can clarify the rules please?

I’ve been involved in the design, construction and commissioning of roads (including attending the road safety audits where local police are part of the final safety approval inspections) for nearly 30 years (new build and upgrades) and never heard anything so bonkers

 

if the Cornwall Police have unilaterally taken this view with no official speed limit change (TRO) and no posted speed limit of 60mph and are applying only in the 50 metres of a gap then I would recommend such fines being challenged in court.

 

if the side road is national speed limit and single carriageway then it would be 60mph

 

have you had this first hand or is this just social Media stories (which may omit key facts such as signs, exact location, roadworks etc or if they were towing (which defaults to 60mph max)

Edited August 15 by black and decker boy
Typo

[Nick C]

20 hours ago, Reorte said:

I'd assumed the dual carriageway sections would be like any other, then I had a quick look on Streetview and saw this, which doesn't fill me with confidence!

This one is worse A303 / A34 - there's no room to improve it though as there's a bridge immediately after, and the visibility is awful. I make sure I'm in lane two on the approach whenever possible to allow room for any joining vehicles, and avoid using it to join by taking the old road along to the next junction.

 

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That arrangement has been eliminated elsewhere long since, at least in my experience, either replaced by two wide lanes (which does not perfectly eliminate the hazard) or, as with long stretches of the A303, making it very clearly two lanes in one direction and one, with a solid white no overtaking line, in the other (better but not idiot-proof).

Many years ago I was overtaken on one of those two-and-one stretches by a Range Rover, while I was overtaking a lorry! There aren't many of them left now though, probably for the best...

Edited August 15 by Nick C

[GrumpyPenguin]

13 minutes ago, Nick C said:

This one is worse A303 / A34 - there's no room to improve it though as there's a bridge immediately after, and the visibility is awful. I make sure I'm in lane two on the approach whenever possible to allow room for any joining vehicles, and avoid using it to join by taking the old road along to the next junction.

 

Many years ago I was overtaken on one of those two-and-one stretches by a Range Rover, while I was overtaking a lorry! There aren't many of them left now though, probably for the best...

Peasants should know their place and keep out of the way of Range Rovers😁.

[Deeps]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

…….. and never heard anything so bonkers

 

have you had this first hand or is this just social Media stories (which may omit key facts such as signs, exact location, roadworks etc or if they were towing (which defaults to 60mph max)

I tend to agree, it does sound bonkers, until you have experienced someone pulling out across in front of you when you are doing 70 in the outside lane.  In this respect the length of the gap is irrelevant but at that point there is no central reservation . I’m not positively stating that the limit is 60 at these points, which is why I’m requesting some official qualification on the matter, but it would make sense if it were.

 

The instances I mentioned on the A38 were first hand experiences of people where I worked, on their daily commute without any of the key facts you referenced. Maybe the police were having an off day(s) at the time? I’d quite happily accept that the notion is wrong, if only to make my journeys on these roads less stressful!

[Reorte]

21 minutes ago, Deeps said:

I tend to agree, it does sound bonkers, until you have experienced someone pulling out across in front of you when you are doing 70 in the outside lane.  In this respect the length of the gap is irrelevant but at that point there is no central reservation . I’m not positively stating that the limit is 60 at these points, which is why I’m requesting some official qualification on the matter, but it would make sense if it were.

Most of the emergency crossovers in motorways seem to have been filled in now (don't seem to get contraflows at roadworks as often any more, although I do rather fewer long journeys these days so it may be observation bias), but I don't ever recall any suggestion that you're supposed to slow to 60 for them, and there's no central reservation there.

Edited August 15 by Reorte

[Deeps]

42 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Most of the emergency crossovers in motorways seem to have been filled in now (don't seem to get contraflows at roadworks as often any more, although I do rather fewer long journeys these days so it may be observation bias), but I don't ever recall any suggestion that you're supposed to slow to 60 for them, and there's no central reservation there.

A Google search on the topic can return any number of conflicting opinions, including where a strip of grass qualifies as a central reservation! The only thing I will add is that on a motorway you rarely had vehicles slowly driving straight across the carriageway when trying to access the opposite lanes.

[Reorte]

57 minutes ago, Deeps said:

A Google search on the topic can return any number of conflicting opinions, including where a strip of grass qualifies as a central reservation! The only thing I will add is that on a motorway you rarely had vehicles slowly driving straight across the carriageway when trying to access the opposite lanes.

Pretty sure a strip of grass does count - it's still two separate carriageways, after all. Still some of them left (e.g. see here), although understandably they're not that common any more. There are obvious reasons for putting a barrier between the carriageways but it's not the presence of a barrier that determines it.

The only examples I can think of on motorways still have at least a fence (not enough to stop any vehicle, but to keep livestock in - where the carriageways are very separate on patches of the M6 around Shap).

Edited August 15 by Reorte

[SM42]

On 01/08/2024 at 07:34, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

, and the environments!

 

Mike.

 

Drive diesel. 

Less CO2/ km and no hoping to find a 13A socket somewhere. 

 

23 hours ago, Coldgunner said:

Sometimes even if right turns are allowed its easier to take the left down to the next roundabout and come back on yourself by the time you've waited.

 

 

I used to do that in Brum. 

 

Turning right off the A38 onto the ring road at the traffic lights was a nightmare.

It took ages for the right turn filter to come round and then it wasn't a very long green phase

 

It was quicker to turn left, up to the roundabout, double back and go through the lights on the ring road. 

 

Normally, if you were waiting at the red to start with you would get greens when you got back to the junction.

 

Andy

[admiles]

15 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The A12 dual carriageway south of Ipswich is similar, with many minor road junctions with a small slip "off" and virtually no "slip" on. Great for a 70mph limit road and impatient locals. 

 

The A12 south of Ipswich should have been a motorway as far as the M25 many years ago....

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Deeps said:

I tend to agree, it does sound bonkers, until you have experienced someone pulling out across in front of you when you are doing 70 in the outside lane.  In this respect the length of the gap is irrelevant but at that point there is no central reservation . I’m not positively stating that the limit is 60 at these points, which is why I’m requesting some official qualification on the matter, but it would make sense if it were.

 

 

Are you suggesting the road should not be considered a dual carriageway at the point where there is a break in the central reservation? That is not as silly as it sounds.

When a single carriageway goes dual, we usually see a blue sign "Dual Carriageway Ahead" & when it singles again, a red triangle sign with an upside down Y to warn us the dual carriageway is ending.

We do not see these signs as we approach a cut-across junction so based on this, I would say that a break in the central reservation does not change the status of the road. Those unfamiliar with the road may be unaware that these junctions are there until they got reasonably close.

But would reducing speed for these areas be sensible? I think it would.

 

As an aside, I have done a couple of speed awareness courses, with about 25 attending each one.

All knew that the speed limit for a car is 30 in a built up area & 70 on a motorway. Only about 20% of us knew it was 60 for a rural single carriageway & 70 for a dual. That worried me & still does.

[Pete the Elaner]

13 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

The A12 south of Ipswich should have been a motorway as far as the M25 many years ago....

 

I grew up that way & remember there being rumours all through the 80s that there were plans to upgrade it to M12. In reality, as a section of A road which has been upgraded, it would more likely have been A12(M) than M12, but the rumours were unlikely to have been based on anything real anyway.

Definitely an overcrowded road though & has been for years.

 

But what about the A133 turn off for Colchester? The 3 lane road used to widen to 4 lanes here, with 2 splitting off to Colchester, but this has been "upgraded" to 1 lane splitting off but the same 2 going forward towards Ipswich.

Exactly how is that an upgrade?

[Reorte]

17 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

As an aside, I have done a couple of speed awareness courses, with about 25 attending each one.

All knew that the speed limit for a car is 30 in a built up area & 70 on a motorway. Only about 20% of us knew it was 60 for a rural single carriageway & 70 for a dual. That worried me & still does.

I was talking to someone once who'd just been on on and insisted it was 60 on a dual carriageway - said he thought it was 70 but was told it was 60 on the course. Hope he was just getting confused about the course, rather than the course getting things wrong.

 

I made sure he was talking about cars (I'd have to look up the numbers of other classes of vehicle - I don't drive those other ones before anyone asks!)

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 

According to this it is 70 in a car on a dual carriageway.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Reorte]

19 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 

According to this it is 70 in a car on a dual carriageway.

Sure, but according to the earlier poster the Cornish police are saying it's not a dual carriageway where there's a gap in the central reservation because at that point there's a straight stretch of tarmac all the way across, so it briefly a single carriageway road and hence briefly 60.

 

If their point was accurate then any time there's a traffic island on a single carriageway road it would briefly become a dual carriageway with a 70 mph limit (at least if it's under NSL restrictions).

Edited August 15 by Reorte

[PaulCheffus]

12 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Sure, but according to the earlier poster the Cornish police are saying it's not a dual carriageway where there's a gap in the central reservation because at that point there's a straight stretch of tarmac all the way across, so it briefly a single carriageway road and hence briefly 60.

 

If their point was accurate then any time there's a traffic island on a single carriageway road it would briefly become a dual carriageway with a 70 mph limit (at least if it's under NSL restrictions).

Hi

 

Then it should be signed as such.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[SM42]

14 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Sure, but according to the earlier poster the Cornish police are saying it's not a dual carriageway where there's a gap in the central reservation because at that point there's a straight stretch of tarmac all the way across, so it briefly a single carriageway road and hence briefly 60.

 

Well that's silly. 

 

There may be a gap but it still a central reservation dividing the carriageway. 

Turning cars are in the central reservation. 

 

There is a central divider separating the opposing lanes of traffic 

 

The gap is irrelevant. 

 

On the subject of national speed limits there is one class of road that does not have one.

 

That is a non motorway special road. 

 

The standard black diagonal on white on such a road means as fast as you like. 

 

The limit must be signed precisely, thus on the A55 in north Walex you will see 70 in a red circle. 

 

Andy

 

Edited August 15 by SM42