Driving standards

[JDW]

I do agree that electronic signs (not just on smart motorways) need to be better co-ordinated and more accurate sometimes, so as not to give false warnings or apparently pointless lower speed limits*. The other day I joined the M1 in Yorkshire, and the sign advised of a 60 limit. The next one was a national speed limit sign. A few miles later, 50... then 40... then blank, then blank again. Some people speeded up, some didn't, because having had an NSL sign after the previous 60 limit it was unclear whether the first blank one was not working or whether the limit had ended. 

 

Also for the avoidance of misunderstanding, a red X is not the same as a red traffic light or wig-wag light at a level crossing. It means you must not continue any further in that lane. It does not mean stop, unless all lanes have a red X above them in which case you must stop. After two decades of driving, and seeing all manner of things, I actually had all lanes flash up a red cross about a dozen cars in front of me a couple of months ago. The first time I'd ever seen it on all lanes at once. In that case though, the police had already pretty much brought traffic to a stop, and it was only for a few minutes to move a stranded broken down car from the central reservation.

 

*Of course, there's always the chance that you pass through in the short window between the obstruction moving and the signs being updated, it will always take a few minutes, but it seems to happen far too often for that to always be the case. 

[johnofwessex]

It seems to me that there is a major issue over the sort of behaviour we expect of drivers, after all you dont expect the pilot on your holiday flight to attempt a barrel roll so why do we tolerats so many motorists playing the fool?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

It seems to me that there is a major issue over the sort of behaviour we expect of drivers, after all you dont expect the pilot on your holiday flight to attempt a barrel roll so why do we tolerats so many motorists playing the fool?

 

If your pilot did that he would lose his licence. If he complains he needs his licence for his job that simply wouldn't wash.

You see so many people keeping their licences because they _need_ them for some reason. If you need your licence don't drive like a tit.

[laurenceb]

And how someone can be driving round with 100 points on their licence is a mystery. The welfare of the rest of the people on or near the highway should take priority

[Jonboy]

Hence the changes to sentencing guidelines last October https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8832081/Courts-come-harder-bans-motorists-12-points.html 

[F-UnitMad]

10 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

It seems to me that there is a major issue over the sort of behaviour we expect of drivers, after all you dont expect the pilot on your holiday flight to attempt a barrel roll so why do we tolerats so many motorists playing the fool?

A Pilot is monitored much more closely than a car driver, both by his employers and "black box" technology. 

I know in Road Haulage telematics are increasingly in use, and the last Company I worked for also had random drink/drug testing, for warehouse as well as driving staff, & I know some forklift drivers got instant dismissal as a result. But until the private motorist is held more immediately accountable to a higher authority for their behaviour, not much is going to change as far as I can see. Speed limiters in cars, anyone?

Even when all cars are self-driving, there'll be someone who tries to re-program his to make it go faster than everyone else's. I bet it'll be a BMW or Audi, as well. 

[Guest]

Black box telemetry is increasingly common for young driver’s insurance . Start driving like a loon and gets expensive.

[F-UnitMad]

25 minutes ago, 30801 said:

Black box telemetry is increasingly common for young driver’s insurance . Start driving like a loon and gets expensive.

My lad has just passed his test. From what I gather from him & his mates, a black box is pretty much compulsory now for new driver's insurance?

[Graham108]

My daughter had to have one for 5 years - my son 3 months. Both with the same insurance company. Worked for my daughter when she had a minor shunt into a car in front - driver claimed whiplash injury but BB showed car traveling at less than 5 MPH - other driver was threatened with legal action for fraud and she dropped her claim completely.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

A Pilot is monitored much more closely than a car driver,

A few years ago when we lived in Essex there was a light aircraft flying over and around our town banking sharply and doing some questionable manoeuvres like stall climbs and it seemed to be very low, sometimes even below 500 feet…..I got the reg and reported it to the CAA, a few days later I got a phone call from them and  after then a visit from a very serious chap who interviewed me (felt like a police interview to be honest)…..about three months later I got a call from the same guy who suddenly was very nice and changed completely and said they traced the aircraft and pilot and from radar records and his statement they found he was a trainer from a local airfield who was “showing off” to friends who had a garden party going on…..I was told his licence had been suspended and he would need to sit an exam/test to resume flying.

 

Yes they take it very seriously indeed.

[kevinlms]

6 hours ago, Jonboy said:

Hence the changes to sentencing guidelines last October https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8832081/Courts-come-harder-bans-motorists-12-points.html 

None of that 'keep driving' nonsense in Victoria, Australia. *

 

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/licences/demerit-points-and-offences/about-demerit-points

 

* The exception is an extended demerit point period, where you have the option of being allowed to drive for 12 months, on the proviso that if you accept this and you get caught with any demerit point offending, you get double the loss of licence provision.

[beast66606]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Yes they take it very seriously indeed.

 

Many years ago I had a works colleague who owned a share in a plane and held a PPL, the journey (when he drove) to Barton airfield from Warrington was far more scary that the flight, his words were "I'm monitored when flying so have to play by the rules" - needless to say, we didn't allow him to drive us very often. Not unexpectedly he did end up hitting a tree - about 10 feet above road level, he was seriously injured but he never did learn to drive within his abilities rather than his (own) perceived abilities.

[Trevellan]

I was out working on the local buses over the weekend and had to deal with some appalling driving by distinctly under-average motorists. This included the driver of a VW Caravette who thought it appropriate to brake-check a bus with 40+ passengers aboard after overtaking it in a 20mph limit. During my meal break a colleague offered the view that there has been a definite increase in unwarranted aggression and impatience by some drivers since the end of the Covid lockdowns. My own observations and experiences support this view. Maybe these people spent too much playing violent video games while at home?

 

The current shortage of LGV and PCV drivers has numerous causes, but one that never gets aired is the fact that we are treated like dirt by a significant proportion of other road users. On the buses we are monitored all the time we're in the cab and any reaction may lead to disciplinary action. Both management and the police are fond of telling us that we're professional drivers and should deal with it, but there is a point when even the most patient and laid-back drivers become frustrated at such constant provocation.

 

Roads policing appears to moving back up the agenda, but we need more unmarked video cars to catch the drivers who think courtesy and the Highway Code are for wimps.

[hayfield]

4 minutes ago, Trevellan said:

I was out working on the local buses over the weekend and had to deal with some appalling driving by distinctly under-average motorists. This included the driver of a VW Caravette who thought it appropriate to brake-check a bus with 40+ passengers aboard after overtaking it in a 20mph limit. During my meal break a colleague offered the view that there has been a definite increase in unwarranted aggression and impatience by some drivers since the end of the Covid lockdowns. My own observations and experiences support this view. Maybe these people spent too much playing violent video games while at home?

 

The current shortage of LGV and PCV drivers has numerous causes, but one that never gets aired is the fact that we are treated like dirt by a significant proportion of other road users. On the buses we are monitored all the time we're in the cab and any reaction may lead to disciplinary action. Both management and the police are fond of telling us that we're professional drivers and should deal with it, but there is a point when even the most patient and laid-back drivers become frustrated at such constant provocation.

 

Roads policing appears to moving back up the agenda, but we need more unmarked video cars to catch the drivers who think courtesy and the Highway Code are for wimps.

 

Trevellan

 

There are good and bad drivers, being so called professional does not mean good driving standards

 

The other weekend I was on the A12 heading to the M25 junction, Its 2 lane and like most other drivers a mile before I positioned myself in the inner lane, we always see chancers not wanting to queue and queue jump at the last moment

 

Anyway I am in the correct lane, I will be travelling west so I have to stay on the A12 until the 3 filter lane appears, there is a large Royal Mail HGV thundering down the outer lane, which at the speed its travelling and the lack of spaces between vehicles is a good assumption. How wrong was I this monster of a truck indicated and forced me into the wrong filter lane . Now I am in the wrong lane for the roundabout and have to wriggle back into the correct lane whilst on the roundabout. I should have reported him to the Royal Mail, in this case not a very professional driver.

 

Then you have one lorry trying to overtake another, but end up going at the same speed, holding up many behind them sometimes for ages. Why does not one just back off very slightly allow the other past, would cost seconds and save large jams behind delaying in some cases hundreds of people. The more I see the worst the standards, by so called professionals

 

Then we have parking by delivery firms, vans lorries and HGV's. Double yellow lines are ignored as is parking near road junctions, in worst cases double parking

[Trevellan]

20 minutes ago, hayfield said:

There are good and bad drivers, being so called professional does not mean good driving standards

 

I did not suggest that professional drivers are superior in any way and was merely reporting my experiences. I fully accept that standards vary across all vehicle and driver types. We can all cite examples of bad driving, from motorcycles upwards - and I include police vehicles in my long list of experiences.

 

My original point is still valid - that standards generally have been allowed to lapse to the point where we have virtual anarchy on the roads. Ironically, your response merely serves to underline the fact that "professional" drivers cannot win, even if they try to do their best. I would agree that the Royal Mail driver should have been reported, but one of the biggest problems for all drivers who do high mileages is the risk of complacency.

 

Finally, problems around deliveries are not always the fault of drivers, but rather a failure of local planning policies which, as an example, do not take into account the supply of retail and wholesale premises.

 

Happily, I will be retiring from commercial driving work this year and will limit my bus and coach driving to vintage types. Driving old vehicles with crash gearboxes and no power steering in today's conditions is another topic in itself!

[ejstubbs]

9 hours ago, Jonboy said:

Hence the changes to sentencing guidelines last October

 

Gotta like this bit: "'Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive,' the new guidelines state."

 

As the saying goes: if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

Whether the changes will actually make any difference we can but wait and see.

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Gotta like this bit: "'Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive,' the new guidelines state."

 

As the saying goes: if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

Whether the changes will actually make any difference we can but wait and see.

An obvious change would be to say that the 'exceptional hardship' defense can only be used once - which sounds similar to the system @kevinlms describes in Victoria. That'd instantly prevent the people with 60+ points at least.

[Jonboy]

3 hours ago, Trevellan said:

 

Finally, problems around deliveries are not always the fault of drivers, but rather a failure of local planning policies which, as an example, do not take into account the supply of retail and wholesale premises.

Working for a wholesaler I would suggest many of the issues are more down to retailers not choosing appropriate premises….opening a shop in a unit with a beauty saloon/hairdresser classification, a 2.4m height limit into its backyard, and double yellows on all roads for 1/3rd of a mile in every direction,  and then moaning the (weekly) pallet delivery’s struggle to unload is a favourite example…

Edited August 16, 2021 by Jonboy

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

There are good and bad drivers, being so called professional does not mean good driving standards

 

Absolutely; Just this morning I was on a local bus into Oxford, early in the morning. Having stopped at traffic lights we moved off when they changed to green, only for a luxury coach to cross in front of us, without any doubt having driven straight through the red light. 

 

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, Trevellan said:

 

I did not suggest that professional drivers are superior in any way and was merely reporting my experiences. I fully accept that standards vary across all vehicle and driver types. We can all cite examples of bad driving, from motorcycles upwards - and I include police vehicles in my long list of experiences.

 

My original point is still valid - that standards generally have been allowed to lapse to the point where we have virtual anarchy on the roads. Ironically, your response merely serves to underline the fact that "professional" drivers cannot win, even if they try to do their best. I would agree that the Royal Mail driver should have been reported, but one of the biggest problems for all drivers who do high mileages is the risk of complacency.

 

Finally, problems around deliveries are not always the fault of drivers, but rather a failure of local planning policies which, as an example, do not take into account the supply of retail and wholesale premises.

 

Happily, I will be retiring from commercial driving work this year and will limit my bus and coach driving to vintage types. Driving old vehicles with crash gearboxes and no power steering in today's conditions is another topic in itself!

 

 

I accept your comments except for deliveries, whilst its hard to sometimes use white van man and professional in the same sentence, many who have advanced licences regular flout the law . One easy example is the HGV drivers who deliver cars to dealers, despite these dealerships being in large plots the delivery drivers regular park outside the dealership, quite often on double yellow lines and sometimes within the area of junctions, where parking is not permitted.

 

I have seen taxis parked across zebra crossings, parked up at traffic light picking up or dropping off a fare. Double yellow lines always ignored, illegal U turns, admittedly private hire is worse than Hackney carriage drivers. I sometimes wonder how some of these drivers got their licensees   

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Jonboy said:

Working for a wholesaler I would suggest many of the issues are more down to retailers not choosing appropriate premises….opening a shop in a unit with a beauty saloon/hairdresser classification, a 2.4m height limit into its backyard, and double yellows on all roads for 1/3rd of a mile in every direction,  and then moaning the (weekly) pallet delivery’s struggle to unload is a favourite example…

 

Its not the shop's fault that the delivery driver has broken the law !!!!  Its the drivers fault. Find a safe and legal place to park then deliver the goods on foot. If everyone chose only to obey the laws they saw fit to and ignored the rest it would be a free for all. 

[Jonboy]

4 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Its not the shop's fault that the delivery driver has broken the law !!!!  Its the drivers fault. Find a safe and legal place to park then deliver the goods on foot. If everyone chose only to obey the laws they saw fit to and ignored the rest it would be a free for all. 

This was the shops issue, that the driver would unload at the nearest safe legal place per the terms of delivery, and wouldn’t illegally block the local bus stops whilst making their delivery….

 

We are talking full pallets of 500kg+, the shop owner simply hadn’t considered logistics when signing the lease.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Jonboy

[hayfield]

6 minutes ago, Jonboy said:

This was the shops issue, that the driver would unload at the nearest safe legal place per the terms of delivery, and wouldn’t illegally block the local bus stops whilst making their delivery….

 

We are talking full pallets of 500kg+, the shop owner simply hadn’t considered logistics when signing the lease.

 

So its OK to break the laws that you see fit to then ? Anarchy rules !!! The highway code is there for everybody to comply with,

 

 

[Giles]

I think nowadays this issue is just as often the local authority altering the road layout , reducing the laybys and parking and massively increasing the pavements in front of all the existing shops - it certainly is in our area! It has changed  dramatically and several times in the last 20 years - so a long-term shop owner does not have the same access rights as he did in the past.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Jonboy said:

This was the shops issue, that the driver would unload at the nearest safe legal place per the terms of delivery, and wouldn’t illegally block the local bus stops whilst making their delivery….

 

We are talking full pallets of 500kg+, the shop owner simply hadn’t considered logistics when signing the lease.

It should be the shop's issue only in that they'll find lots of "sorry, we can't deliver there" replies when they try to stock (assuming no added restrictions since the shop opened).