Driving standards

[Reorte]

Wouldn't it be better to simply use the brake pedal and the car decides whether or not to carry out the action by regen or brakes? I'm generally against machines making such decisions - any "intelligence" in a system - but it sounds like a good exception, and would keep the "step on the brake when something goes wrong" instinct working.

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Wouldn't it be better to simply use the brake pedal and the car decides whether or not to carry out the action by regen or brakes? I'm generally against machines making such decisions - any "intelligence" in a system - but it sounds like a good exception, and would keep the "step on the brake when something goes wrong" instinct working.

But it’s just like engine braking, only more controllable......if you need more braking use the brake pedal.

 

Its not difficult, really.

[Reorte]

32 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

But it’s just like engine braking, only more controllable......if you need more braking use the brake pedal.

 

Its not difficult, really.

Well the whole engine braking discussion seemed a bit confused between using it to slow down and using it to control your speed, e.g. maintaining a constant speed going down a steep hill (which was the position I was coming from), so at different times I think both "should use engine braking" and "brakes to slow" are correct, the former for maintaining speed and the latter for reducing it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

Wouldn't it be better to simply use the brake pedal and the car decides whether or not to carry out the action by regen or brakes? I'm generally against machines making such decisions - any "intelligence" in a system - but it sounds like a good exception, and would keep the "step on the brake when something goes wrong" instinct working.

 

That's exactly what happens normally if you don't have regen dialled up.

 

Controlling speed with the throttle is better but you don't really get it until you've tried.

[PhilJ W]

Two comments about gears v. brakes. When I took my first driving lesson I was sat in the driving seat while the instructor explained the controls. He pointed to the gear lever and said "That is the change speed lever, you use that to control your speed." (my italics) and I have followed that ever since. But that was 54 years ago! Of course cars have changed a lot in those 54 years. My current car, a Hyundai I10 has a high revving short stroke engine and a five speed gearbox compared to my first car, a Ford 100E with a slow revving long stroke engine and only three speeds. With my current car the engine braking is not as noticeable as it was on the 100E. The Hyundai will speed up when going downhill in top gear with feet off of everything whereas the 100E would almost stop. Another practice that I was taught was to always use the same gear going down a hill as you used going up.

Edited December 15, 2020 by PhilJ W

[hayfield]

Just been to Milton Keynes and back and slightly suffered slightly from 2 appalling UK lorry drivers, whilst overtaking one HGV it started signalling, cars in lane 3 so I could not pull over and could not speed up, sounded his horn impatiently as I passed. A bit later  another HGV undertook several cars who were in lane 2 then jumped in front of the lead car causing several of us to break. This is why all lanes slow down causing waves on motorways.

 

I understand car drivers are just as bad and equal numbers were either mobile chicanes in the centre lanes or changing lanes to leave the motorway at the mast moment 

 

A message to lorry drivers, if you are a professional please act like one, and a big thanks to the majority who do so

[PhilJ W]

Oh dear:-

[Kendo54]

I will "see" you UK drivers and "raise" you Alberta drivers !!!. Large semi's (artics) plus idiots driving "phallic" trucks prompts an air of invicibilty/immortality. Put them on the M25 or the M60 around Manchester at rush hour and they would die of apoplexy.  They get away with it here due to 1) big roads & 2) little traffic. Regarding the photo above we will "figure it out" and probably go off road!!!! We the North !!!

[298]

17 hours ago, jchinuk said:

 

With reference to EVs, the Nissan Leaf has an "e-pedal" mode, which is essentially "one pedal driving" the car comes to a stop if you lift off the pedal.

 

 

I've not driven a Leaf for a while but have found in our Zoe that there are places where it will regen on the speed limiter when ICE drivers will still be accelerating, either through ignorance or a lack of engine braking. One popular spot is the perfect storm of a down ramp leading into a dual carriageway and a 40 mph limit that used to be higher. There is also a brilliant spit to park a camera van on one of the overbridges, but the authorities probably don't have the processing capability for that many speeding tickets... 

[MarkC]

14 hours ago, hayfield said:

Just been to Milton Keynes and back and slightly suffered slightly from 2 appalling UK lorry drivers, whilst overtaking one HGV it started signalling, cars in lane 3 so I could not pull over and could not speed up, sounded his horn impatiently as I passed. A bit later  another HGV undertook several cars who were in lane 2 then jumped in front of the lead car causing several of us to break. This is why all lanes slow down causing waves on motorways.

 

I understand car drivers are just as bad and equal numbers were either mobile chicanes in the centre lanes or changing lanes to leave the motorway at the mast moment 

 

A message to lorry drivers, if you are a professional please act like one, and a big thanks to the majority who do so

So if there was space for the HGV to undertake, someone was sitting in Lane 2 when they should have moved into Lane 1? Back in the day, such behaviour would have earned you a 'tug', were you to be spotted by the Traffic Police. Sadly they seem to be few and far between these days, so the deterrent factor has gone. I know there was a publicity campaign not so long ago, reminding motorists of the obligation to move left when you could, but folk think that they can 'get away with it', and, absent the Traffic Police patrols, they do.

 

How many times do we see lane 1 almost empty on 4 lane motorways? Too often...

 

And yes, you're absolutely right about 'waves', John. But much of that could be reduced if people kept their distance better - again, tailgating has become the norm, because of a lack of visible deterrent...

 

Mark

[MarkC]

9 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Oh dear:-

A duel! Or is it a joust? 

 

Mark

[hayfield]

31 minutes ago, MarkC said:

So if there was space for the HGV to undertake, someone was sitting in Lane 2 when they should have moved into Lane 1? Back in the day, such behaviour would have earned you a 'tug', were you to be spotted by the Traffic Police. Sadly they seem to be few and far between these days, so the deterrent factor has gone. I know there was a publicity campaign not so long ago, reminding motorists of the obligation to move left when you could, but folk think that they can 'get away with it', and, absent the Traffic Police patrols, they do.

 

How many times do we see lane 1 almost empty on 4 lane motorways? Too often...

 

And yes, you're absolutely right about 'waves', John. But much of that could be reduced if people kept their distance better - again, tailgating has become the norm, because of a lack of visible deterrent...

 

Mark

 

Mark

All 4 lanes were quite full and lane 2 was doing about 60, lanes 3 & 4 not very much more. The gap in lane 1 was due to two or more HGV's correctly waiting their turn to enter lane 2 without causing issues. The reason they were pulling out was that there was a very slow HGV in lane 1, it was going much slower than all other HGV's on this undulating stretch (Probably overweight load for the lorries pulling ability). Not as you assumed in your reply that lane 1 was under used.

 

The lorry in question was probably either running empty or with a light load, as I said undertook several vehicles until it caught up with the slower moving lorry then played chicken with one to bully its way out causing a whole lane to slow down just because he was impatient.

 

I wished we used what the French do on hilly sections of motorways and require lorries and vehicles towing to remain in lane 1. As it happened I Googled the Company who owned the HGV in question, somehow there were Google replies about the company being an awful employer and using mainly agency drivers, don't go there was the main advice of the reviews

 

The fact is that HGV drivers could be far more helpful in reducing congestion, several times yesterday I saw 3 abreast HGV's struggling to overtake each other. All the time there were HGV's in lane 2 clearly struggling to overtake the HGV in lane 1 on flat sections, no one would give way to allow him in thus causing traffic to slow in lane 2, which then tried to go into lane 3. this in turn slowed lane 3 and the same happened in lane 4

 

As far as I know lane 2 is for overtaking, if you cannot overtake and are loosing ground to the traffic in front the HGV should return to lane 1, but neither the HGV's in lane 1 would hold back slightly to allow this of I guess the HGV would not bother to go back if there were a space. I do agree that centre lane only drivers are a pain, but there are far more HGV's on the road doing much the same 

[MarkC]

15 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Mark

All 4 lanes were quite full and lane 2 was doing about 60, lanes 3 & 4 not very much more. The gap in lane 1 was due to two or more HGV's correctly waiting their turn to enter lane 2 without causing issues. The reason they were pulling out was that there was a very slow HGV in lane 1, it was going much slower than all other HGV's on this undulating stretch (Probably overweight load for the lorries pulling ability). Not as you assumed in your reply that lane 1 was under used.

 

The lorry in question was probably either running empty or with a light load, as I said undertook several vehicles until it caught up with the slower moving lorry then played chicken with one to bully its way out causing a whole lane to slow down just because he was impatient.

 

I wished we used what the French do on hilly sections of motorways and require lorries and vehicles towing to remain in lane 1. As it happened I Googled the Company who owned the HGV in question, somehow there were Google replies about the company being an awful employer and using mainly agency drivers, don't go there was the main advice of the reviews

 

The fact is that HGV drivers could be far more helpful in reducing congestion, several times yesterday I saw 3 abreast HGV's struggling to overtake each other. All the time there were HGV's in lane 2 clearly struggling to overtake the HGV in lane 1 on flat sections, no one would give way to allow him in thus causing traffic to slow in lane 2, which then tried to go into lane 3. this in turn slowed lane 3 and the same happened in lane 4

 

As far as I know lane 2 is for overtaking, if you cannot overtake and are loosing ground to the traffic in front the HGV should return to lane 1, but neither the HGV's in lane 1 would hold back slightly to allow this of I guess the HGV would not bother to go back if there were a space. I do agree that centre lane only drivers are a pain, but there are far more HGV's on the road doing much the same 

All clear now, John - and I concur with your comments re HGVs overtaking each other. It's especially bad on 2 lane motorways & dual carriageways when there's an incline, and one HGV is struggling to get past. Many's the time we've all been stuck for miles behind 2 juggernauts doing well below the posted limit. There's a fierce climb on the (2 lane) A1(M) southbound, not far from where I live. Large vehicles are banned from the outside lane 0700-1900; it makes a tremendous difference to traffic flows.

 

Mark

[PhilJ W]

You have to remember that HGV's are legally required to be fitted with a speed limiter keeping them to below 56 mph. 

[boxbrownie]

1 minute ago, PhilJ W said:

You have to remember that HGV's are legally required to be fitted with a speed limiter keeping them to below 56 mph. 

And yet...........

[Nick C]

15 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

You have to remember that HGV's are legally required to be fitted with a speed limiter keeping them to below 56 mph. 

Which causes a lot of the problem - if one was calibrated with new tyres, and one with slightly worn ones, they'll be slightly different, resulting in one doing 55.5mph and one doing 56.5 and so trying to overtake...

[rockershovel]

the police know that there are too many inherent problems for them to have any interest in stopping, or exercising any real control over EU nationals driving HGVs. 

 

Firstly, in these days of JIT supply chains, the driver is probably scheduled so that he doesn't have any spare time, and may run out of driving hours before reaching his destination if delayed.  That means he will (most likely) drive too fast or too aggressively to attempt to recover the time, exceed his hours, or park somewhere if he is told to, having reported that he has missed his delivery slot. The driver is far more concerned about unemployment or nonpayment, than prosecution. 

 

Secondly the Polish police in particular, make enthusiastic use of the EU system by which fines levied in Poland on individuals resident in UK are passed to the UK for collection, but make no serious effort to return the favour. The fine will probably never be collected, if the driver turns up in court at all. 

 

Thirdly there is a serious, well known problem with false or duplicate documentation, often associated with identity theft. This in turn leads to problems with insurance, driving exceeding hours and other related issues. 

 

The police know all this. They know they will get no thanks for causing problems, and they know the scale of the problem is beyond them anyway. They know that keeping traffic moving with the minimum of fuss has the twin advantages of requiring the least effort and resources, and sparing them a lot of unproductive work. This might not be their proper function, but they certainly have a point. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Which causes a lot of the problem - if one was calibrated with new tyres, and one with slightly worn ones, they'll be slightly different, resulting in one doing 55.5mph and one doing 56.5 and so trying to overtake...

 

An old friend of mine, having got a lectureship at Southampton but still living in Oxford and being a physicist, sent out a Christmas letter composed of spoof physics finals questions that gave expression to his successes and frustrations of the year. One featured one lorry overtaking another on the A34. The final part of the question asked "In what county will the manoeuvre be completed?" 

[ejstubbs]

2 hours ago, MarkC said:

re HGVs overtaking each other. It's especially bad on 2 lane motorways & dual carriageways when there's an incline, and one HGV is struggling to get past. Many's the time we've all been stuck for miles behind 2 juggernauts doing well below the posted limit.

 

Known in Germany as "dinosaur racing", I understand.

 

From The Daily Mash: Lorry Driver Celebrates First Anniversary Of Overtaking Manoeuvre (they're not referring to the stretch of the A1 that you had in mind by any chance, are they?)

[jchinuk]

On 15/12/2020 at 12:26, 30801 said:

 

As for the two foot thing. No. Who even does that?

 

 

While I tend to agree, if you read "Honest John" the motoring correspondent who occasionally pops up on the BBC News, he is quite evangelical on the subject.  He often cites examples of deaths caused by "one footed" driving of automatics and claims he has "proved" during tests away from public roads that "two footed" driving of automatics is demonstrably safer.

 

I offer no endorsement of his views, but it's not as unusual as you might think.

 

jch

Edited December 16, 2020 by jchinuk

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

You have to remember that HGV's are legally required to be fitted with a speed limiter keeping them to below 56 mph. 

 

Many are not set correctly and when going down hill they seem to be going much faster. The issue seems to be where there are differing management systems

[jchinuk]

23 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

E-Pedal driving as coined by Nissan is fine, our i3 will do exactly the same thing, the regen is such that using the brake becomes a “last resort” action if there is an unexpected reason to brake suddenly, using the accel pedal and regen to control the speed is a far nice way to drive and much more satisfying as a driver, and more comfortable as a passenger.

 

 

It is true that far too many drivers (of ICE cars) treat the accelerator / brake as 'on / off' switches.  While I tend not to engine brake, if I see the lights ahead are red I just ease off the accelerator and allow the car to slow down, finally braking.  Unlike some who rush up to the car in front and (hopefully) brake at the last minute.

 

jch

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, jchinuk said:

 

While I tend to agree, if you read "Honest John" the motoring correspondent who occasionally pops up on the BBC News, he is quite evangelical on the subject.  He often cites examples of deaths caused by "one footed" driving of automatics and claims he has "proved" during tests away from public roads that "two footed" driving of automatics is demonstrably safer.

 

I offer no endorsement of his views, but it's not as unusual as you might think.

 

I remember watching 'Britains Worst Driver' some years ago. One contestant (a former policeman IIRC) did two feet automatic. Watching him parallel park using simultaneously near full throttle and heavy application of the brake was..... unnerving. 

[Reorte]

35 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Many are not set correctly and when going down hill they seem to be going much faster. The issue seems to be where there are differing management systems

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that they're only required to fit limiters that stop engine power taking them over the limit, they aren't required to apply the brakes (although some will), so on a steep enough hill some lorries can get over it (and there's a small gap where that would be legal I suppose, since the limit on a motorway for them is 60 mph).

[Reorte]

9 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

I remember watching 'Britains Worst Driver' some years ago. One contestant (a former policeman IIRC) did two feet automatic. Watching him parallel park using simultaneously near full throttle and heavy application of the brake was..... unnerving. 

 

There are times when racing drivers need to be pressing both simultaneously but parallel parking isn't quite the same!

 

Where it gets tricky for racing drivers is when there's a manual clutch too (so not often in modern cars). Senna was a master of it.