Driving standards

[Guest]

The removal of the hard shoulder is dangerous and those that have been removed should be re-instated. Its only increasing capacity on the cheap but what is it going to cost in lives?

If you have a problem and you can't coast to one of the refuges then you're stopped in a live lane hoping people will look up from their phones and take notice of the lane closure on the gantry.

Obviously you've got out and are sitting up the banking somewhere upstream from your car.

[TheQ]

If you have a problem and you can't coast to one of the refuges then you're stopped in a live lane hoping people will look up from their phones and take notice of the lane closure on the gantry.

Obviously you've got out and are sitting up the banking in the rain, hail and snow hoping someone turns up before you freeze to death..somewhere upstream from your car.

[Hobby]

The removal of the hard shoulder is dangerous and those that have been removed should be re-instated. Its only increasing capacity on the cheap but what is it going to cost in lives?

 

The article seems to be more concerned about the ALR version, which is the "no hard shoulder" one, which they don't like. I use the M42 quite a lot which is the version which uses hard shoulders at busy times and it seems to work well, combined with the reduction of speed to 60 or even 50 or 40. BTW The advice to get out of the car and away from it applies on all M'ways, TheQ. The worst accident I ever witnessed was on the M6 where a lorry driver had dozed off, wandered onto the hard shoulder and wiped out a broken down minibus, this was long before smart motorways and was at night on a three lane lit section, so the advice to get out of the car is sound, as is carrying HV vests, though in this case they probably wouldn't have made any difference.

 

 

Just out of interest for those who don't like the them can you explain why a dual carriageway (also without a hard shoulder) is any less dangerous but is not included in this discussion... Especially when many have the 70mph limit and are as busy as many motorways... Perhaps because there's no stats for them?

[royaloak]

Just out of interest for those who don't like the them can you explain why a dual carriageway (also without a hard shoulder) is any less dangerous but is not included in this discussion... Especially when many have the 70mph limit and are as busy as many motorways... Perhaps because there's no stats for them?

On most dual carriageways you can get off the live lanes onto the grass verge or whatever is there, on these smart motorways there is normally a steel arm-co preventing that so you are trapped in a live lane. 

[kevinlms]

If you have a problem and you can't coast to one of the refuges then you're stopped in a live lane hoping people will look up from their phones and take notice of the lane closure on the gantry.

Obviously you've got out and are sitting up the banking somewhere upstream from your car.

Sometimes, people are plain stupid and it matters not one iota what lane control there is. I mentioned this example earlier in this thread.

 

On a Melbourne freeway, a driver stopped in the centre of 5 lanes in his direction, to change a tyre! He actually got UNDER the rear of his vehicle to check what the problem was. Luckily, the emergency vehicle turned up to assist at this time. It's hard to imagine something more stupid and a death wish!

[PhilJ W]

Sometimes, people are plain stupid and it matters not one iota what lane control there is. I mentioned this example earlier in this thread.

 

On a Melbourne freeway, a driver stopped in the centre of 5 lanes in his direction, to change a tyre! He actually got UNDER the rear of his vehicle to check what the problem was. Luckily, the emergency vehicle turned up to assist at this time. It's hard to imagine something more stupid and a death wish!

He was eager to get a Darwin award.

[Coryton]

The way I see it, the biggest problem was creating a cassette of the required route in the first place. Presumably it had to be recorded in real time, by someone driving the intended route. Might work for one of the suggestions - a (tour)bus route, where once created, it can be used multiple times. But for day to day driving, or a taxi with one off destinations - useless.

 

I think it could have found niche areas where it could have worked if it didn't have to be so inflexible.

 

I liked the hire car example because you could imagine it being worth installing the kit (I wonder how much it would have cost?) in the cars.

 

I wouldn't go so far though as to say it would be useless for day to day driving because of the need for a cassette per route. I could see it working for popular destinations (hospitals? Universities?) not too far from a motorway. You make a set of cassettes from a few motorway junctions to post out to visitors, and when the driver leaves home they drive to the motorway (likely to be familiar with that), follow the signs to the appropriate junction (fairly easy), then start the tape to get themselves to the unfamiliar destination (often not at all easy!)

 

I imagine most people would do fairly well these days on such a journey if they looked up which junction they were aiming at and didn't turn the satnav on until they came off the motorway.

 

Somewhat incidentally, many years ago, the AA had a service where you wrote to them to say where you needed to drive from and to, and they'd post you a set of navigation instructions, made up by chaining copies of prepared sheets.

[Hobby]

Somewhat incidentally, many years ago, the AA had a service where you wrote to them to say where you needed to drive from and to, and they'd post you a set of navigation instructions, made up by chaining copies of prepared sheets.

 

Yes, my Dad used to get them back in the 60's.

[raymw]

afaik, the aa still do it. Now on line, anywayhttp://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp can be easier reading a line of text compared to squinting at a map.

[rockershovel]

Diverting traffic onto the hard shoulder is only an increase in capacity on the cheap, for a limited period. Hard shoulders, particularly older ones in context, any more than about 5 years old) aren’t constructed to the same specification, and won’t stand the loads. Not so very far down the way, lies a huge project with all its attendant chaos replacing the hard shoulders damaged in this manner.

[Coryton]

afaik, the aa still do it. Now on line, anywayhttp://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp can be easier reading a line of text compared to squinting at a map.

 

Well yes, but so does Google Maps etc.

 

Not quite the same as people hand-assembling sets of instructions.

 

Curiously, the AA one clearly uses Google Maps but the navigation instructions aren't quite the same...look somewhat clearer in fact.

[Reorte]

Diverting traffic onto the hard shoulder is only an increase in capacity on the cheap, for a limited period. Hard shoulders, particularly older ones in context, any more than about 5 years old) aren’t constructed to the same specification, and won’t stand the loads. Not so very far down the way, lies a huge project with all its attendant chaos replacing the hard shoulders damaged in this manner.

ALR schemes involve rebuilding the hard shoulder to take the extra load (that's why the southern half of the M6 is so full of roadworks).

[MarkC]

One of the biggest problems with traffic flow is the reluctance of folk to both keep their distance and anticipate traffic ahead slowing down. Once people start braking hard, it's remarkable how quickly a queue of almost stationary or even stationary traffic builds up, and it takes time to clear again.

 

Nevertheless, I still hate so-called 'smart motorways'

[PaulCheffus]

One of the biggest problems with traffic flow is the reluctance of folk to both keep their distance and anticipate traffic ahead slowing down. 

Hi

 

If you leave a sensible gap some idiot will come along and fill it.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[MarkC]

Hi

 

If you leave a sensible gap some idiot will come along and fill it.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Exactly - there is too much aggression and impatience these days, but when someone does that, just drop back a bit, and let them have their accident elsewhere...

[Joseph_Pestell]

My current gripe is less with incompetent drivers than cyclists. Why do they think it is a good idea to ride around on unlit bikes in dark clothing at this time of year?

[PaulCheffus]

Exactly - there is too much aggression and impatience these days, but when someone does that, just drop back a bit, and let them have their accident elsewhere...

Hi

 

Not sure what you are getting at here as that is what I do.

 

Its not just motorways either.

 

We have a shop car park entrance off the main road though our village with a clearly marked keep clear on the road. Last week my wife was waiting at the traffic lights leaving the gap clear when one of these idiots over took her and put themselves in the gap blocking the entrance to the shop car park. This in turn caused gridlock as the traffic coming the other way then blocked the traffic lights as the person at the front of the queue wanted to go into the car park.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Edited December 18, 2018 by PaulCheffus

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

That's become a stock phrase when the wife and I are together in a car: "We will keep our distance", subtext, (now unspoken) so that you may enjoy your accident without our participation.

 

Then again even when you do this the true professional can still make an ambush attempt. We had two clear lanes on the M5 between ourselves and the driver with unsecured floorboards (or similar) propped up on his trailer, which showered down across all the carriageways as he grafted up to 'flight speed' on the joining sliproad.

[MarkC]

Hi

 

Not sure what you are getting at here as that is what I do.

 

Its not just motorways either.

 

We have a shop car park entrance off the main road though our village with a clearly marked keep clear on the road. Last week my wife was waiting at the traffic lights leaving the gap clear when one of these idiots over took her and put themselves in the gap blocking the entrance to the shop car park. This in turn caused gridlock as the traffic coming the other way then blocked the traffic lights as the person at the front of the queue wanted to go into the car park.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

My apologies, Paul, if that is what you (correctly) do - the way I read your post was that one shouldn't leave a gap because of the impatient brigade

 

As for the cretin who cut in front of your wife - that is the sort of thing that is a consequence of Traffic Police reductions - these wazzocks do it because they are unlikely to get caught

 

Mark

[Pacific231G]

My apologies, Paul, if that is what you (correctly) do - the way I read your post was that one shouldn't leave a gap because of the impatient brigade

 

As for the cretin who cut in front of your wife - that is the sort of thing that is a consequence of Traffic Police reductions - these wazzocks do it because they are unlikely to get caught

 

Mark

I couldn't agree more. Now they only bother about traffic offences whose detection can be automated or easily spottedf by fixed camera - notably speeding, going into a bus lane before a junction ten yards prematurely or getting stuck on a box junction. .

 

Excessive and inappropriate speed IS a major factor in traffic accidents, especially in their severity (which is down to basic physics) but certainly not the only one. On my local dual carriageway (speed limit 40MPH) the prat I saw yesterday driving a foot behind another car in lane three he thought should be going at 70MPH instead of just 50 (I was in lane two so knew how fast they were going)  , weaving in and out of lanes with almost no clearance and constantly overtaking on the inside is very unlikely to ever be sanctioned for his reckless driving but only for speeding. When I started driving there was a fairly good chance that anyone persistently driving like that would sooner or later find himself being pulled over by the constabulary, now they could probably do it all their life without ever being called to account.   

Edited December 18, 2018 by Pacific231G

[kevinlms]

I couldn't agree more. Now they only bother about traffic offences whose detection can be automated or easily spottedf by fixed camera - notably speeding, going into a bus lane before a junction ten yards prematurely or getting stuck on a box junction. .

So why shouldn't they get caught for 'getting stuck on a box junction'. There is no excuse for that, they are there for a reason. What if there is a level crossing there?

[TheQ]

That's become a stock phrase when the wife and I are together in a car: "We will keep our distance", subtext, (now unspoken) so that you may enjoy your accident without our participation.

 

Then again even when you do this the true professional can still make an ambush attempt. We had two clear lanes on the M5 between ourselves and the driver with unsecured floorboards (or similar) propped up on his trailer, which showered down across all the carriageways as he grafted up to 'flight speed' on the joining sliproad.

My sympathies, I was hit by an 8X4 piece of shuttering ply while travelling south on the M6 just south of the manchester ship canal. It came out of a tipper artic heading the other way..

 

 it smashed the bonnet in, scratched the windscreen and dented the roof, smashing the grill of the lorry behind we were in the middle lane...

Edited December 18, 2018 by TheQ

[MarkC]

So why shouldn't they get caught for 'getting stuck on a box junction'. There is no excuse for that, they are there for a reason. What if there is a level crossing there?

Totally agree about box junctions - as you say, they're there for a good reason

[JDW]

Totally agree about box junctions - as you say, they're there for a good reason

 

Likewise, although people shouldn't need telling not to block a junction.  It infuriates me sometimes how people just blindly drive into a junction and stop, because the traffic in front has stopped, thereby blocking all the other traffic too - almost "if I can't go anywhere, why should I worry about letting anyone else go?" - thus holding up traffic all around.

 

That said, I can think of at least one box junction where, especially for drivers of large vehicles, it's sometimes impossible to obey properly.  The yellow box across the junction  is about 4 cars long, but the space after it before the next set of lights (a pedestrian crossing) is only about 2 cars long.  The "correct" way would be for the third car to hold back and make sure the first two get through the pedestrian crossing.  In reality (I've tried - usually driving a bus) it's impossible, and just brings the at times already congested street to a standstill.   For those with too much time on your hands, it's here: https://www.google.com/maps/@57.1446446,-2.0978253,3a,37.5y,251.73h,77.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQPqjKwcXZVcr9fJfUaJLMA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

But approach it from the other side, and you've no idea whether the lights are green or there are any cars stopped there until its pretty much too late anyway: https://www.google.com/maps/@57.1448979,-2.098125,3a,75y,200.35h,82.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO4qbFDgkImsae3Q95WHhRw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

But hey, this from the city council that brings us such gems as bus stops you can't stop at: https://www.google.com/maps/@57.1573995,-2.1097919,3a,37.5y,277.25h,77.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scUMe9M5GgmHSUps1y-HKPA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656(raised kerb in the middle of the bus, but you can't draw up to it for the fixed bins anyway - and yes, they did install the raised kerbs after the bins!)

[Pacific231G]

Totally agree about box junctions - as you say, they're there for a good reason

I wasn't suggesting that violating box junctions, bus lanes or speeding should not be sanctioned but that these should not be all that are picked up on while more serious and dangerous driving is not.