Driving standards

[Enterprisingwestern]

I am well aware of the blind spots on my car and I set my mirrors accordingly.

 

Indeed, my car has very thick windscreen pillars that can easily hide a cyclist or motorcyclist. For that reason when at many road junctions I lean forward to check that the road is clear. The rear vision is even worse, from the interior mirror only a small area of the back window is visible, no more than about 20% and coupled with thick rear quarter panels leaves a blind spot thats wider than a motorcycle and rider, right where a motorcyclist would position himself to overtake. I wonder sometimes if drivers and motorcyclists take this into account.

 

An ongoing problem where a number of modern cars are designed by a stylist from the outside in, rather than an engineer from the inside out.

 

Mike.

[PhilJ W]

Which suggests there's an interesting trade-off here: we keep making cars safer for the occupants, but potentially less safe for the people with whom they share space (poor bloody pedestrians again).

 

I remember the NSU Ro80 - an odd car from aeons ago, but looking at photos of it now it is extraordinary how the superstructure is, basically, a greenhouse. Fantastic visibility all round. Less fun to be in in a crash, I imagine.

 

Paul

In some modern cars the windscreen is part of the body structure. I once had a Nissan Prairie that had thin pillars all round and in fact had no 'B' pillar. It was written off when I was rear ended by a truck when it rolled over at least three times. The only injury I sustained was a cut finger on the broken glass. Even after the accident all the doors, including the sliding rear side doors operated and shut as normal.

[Mad McCann]

In practical terms, seeing a motor bike head on, at a distance of say a couple of hundred yards, could any of us honestly say how fast it was going?, there's not much of viewing area to accurately judge such things with a motor bike.

Most of us would assume the worst and maybe give it a moment, but obviously not everybody.

 

Mike.

As always; if in doubt, wait out.

 

D4

[Horsetan]

Which suggests there's an interesting trade-off here: we keep making cars safer for the occupants, but potentially less safe for the people with whom they share space (poor bloody pedestrians again).

Can't be any safer for the driver if (s)he can't see the things (s)he's supposed to.

 

I remember the NSU Ro80 - an odd car from aeons ago, but looking at photos of it now it is extraordinary how the superstructure is, basically, a greenhouse. Fantastic visibility all round. Less fun to be in in a crash, I imagine...

Actually it was rated above average for crashworthiness at the time, with all the proper crumple zones, etc.

[Fenman]

Can't be any safer for the driver if (s)he can't see the things (s)he's supposed to.

 

Actually it was rated above average for crashworthiness at the time, with all the proper crumple zones, etc.

Er... it’s substantially safer for the driver in any car:pedestrian interface! The car is pretty much always going to win that conflict.

 

I’m pleased to learn that about the NSU. I regret not having had one.

 

Paul

[Horsetan]

Er... it’s substantially safer for the driver in any car:pedestrian interface! The car is pretty much always going to win that conflict.

I meant in terms of accident prevention. The accident might not happen if the driver had sufficient visibility in the first place.

 

I’m pleased to learn that about the NSU. I regret not having had one.

I had one for four years. Always regret having to sell it.

[Jenny Emily]

and they wonder why they are called organ doners https://www.facebook.com/2WRNV/videos/1528095830585667/?t=12

 

Reminds me of trucking along the A5182 towards the M6 J15 on a fine summer's evening quite a few years ago now. Minding my own business tootling along on the windy section there was nothing in my mirrors. Then as I came to a blind corner a motorbike shot past on the wrong side of the road at a sizeable speed above the limit and came within a couple of feet of going headfirst into the front grill of the truck coming the other way. I caught up with the biker at the bridge over the M6 where he was sat at the side of the road shaking like a leaf and puking his guts up out of shock at how close he came to wiping out.

[chriswright03]

Couple of things that have been mentioned in respect of motorcyclists that I would like to expand on.

 

First talk of blind spots in mirrors of vehicles.  A car can be hidden in the blind spot so a bike certainly can.  I was always taught in cars and on bikes you NEVER overtake where someone has the opportunity to turn right be it into a road, drive or even a field.  If you are in a blind spot and you try and overtake a vehicle where they have an opportunity to turn right you are putting yourself in danger.

 

Secondly SMIDSY has been mentioned.  So for those that don't know what it means or haven't heard it before it refers to 'sorry mate I didn't see you'.  Usually spoken by a motorist to a biker who they have just pulled out in front of and knocked them off.  Lots of riders are knocked off by cars or whatever pulling out onto the main road from their nearside.  Part of the way to combat this riders are taught to look for eye contact so basically look to see that the driver is looking your way.  That is OK and should be done but it by no means is evidence that they have actually seen you.  The eye can focus on the middle distance and not see what is closer and that often happens.  When I come across a vehicle on my nearside waiting to pull out I do all of that mentioned plus think to myself not I wonder if he has seen me but I will slow down a bit and cover the brake because they are highly likely to pull out in front of me.

 

All of this is very basic road skills and 'should' be taught to motorcyclist on their CBT (Compulsory Basic Training) and certainly was when I was training riders.  It was also taught to fold on improver, Advanced and Born again rider courses.

 

Sorry if this is hammering the points home but the death of the young man in Norfolk could have been avoided had he used those basic skills as opposed to the basic urge to ride as fast as you can.  If my mentioning this stuff gets through to one person and stops another family from having to deal with the death of a loved one then is is worth it.

 

As you may tell I am passionate about this sort of thing. 

[Sidecar Racer]

When I was out on my bike and in traffic I tried to position myself so that I

could see the offside wing mirror and the interior mirror at the same time ,

hopefully as long as I could see those the driver should be able to see me .

Edited March 5, 2018 by Sidecar Racer

[MJI]

Pulling out in front of bikes, two memorable ones

 

1 was a pickup, I smashed its door in with my shoulder, lucky to not break anything, nor damage my bike, I should have get the Police involved despite the only damage being the SMIDSY

 

2 nearly dropped on an emergency stop to avoid T boning a Police car. Damp road

 

Not speeding both in 30s

[JDW]

Yes, you don't have to be going fast to come off - I was once following a motorbike, he'd come out of a petrol station on my right a few hundred yards ahead of me, probably hadn't even got to 30 when he started to brake for a pedestrian crossing.  I looked across to my nearside mirror, looked back in front and he was laying on his back under his bike in the middle of the road.  I still have no idea exactly what happened, needless to say I parked my bus across the road and helped him up and onto the pavement, before a few of us picked his bike up.  Maybe he just lost his balance, maybe his tyres were oily from the petrol station forecourt.  An ambulance checked him over, but he seemed unharmed, apart from his pride...

[JeremyC]

Couple of things that have been mentioned in respect of motorcyclists that I would like to expand on.

 

First talk of blind spots in mirrors of vehicles.  A car can be hidden in the blind spot so a bike certainly can.  I was always taught in cars and on bikes you NEVER overtake where someone has the opportunity to turn right be it into a road, drive or even a field.  If you are in a blind spot and you try and overtake a vehicle where they have an opportunity to turn right you are putting yourself in danger.

 

Secondly SMIDSY has been mentioned.  So for those that don't know what it means or haven't heard it before it refers to 'sorry mate I didn't see you'.  Usually spoken by a motorist to a biker who they have just pulled out in front of and knocked them off.  Lots of riders are knocked off by cars or whatever pulling out onto the main road from their nearside.  Part of the way to combat this riders are taught to look for eye contact so basically look to see that the driver is looking your way.  That is OK and should be done but it by no means is evidence that they have actually seen you.  The eye can focus on the middle distance and not see what is closer and that often happens.  When I come across a vehicle on my nearside waiting to pull out I do all of that mentioned plus think to myself not I wonder if he has seen me but I will slow down a bit and cover the brake because they are highly likely to pull out in front of me.

 

All of this is very basic road skills and 'should' be taught to motorcyclist on their CBT (Compulsory Basic Training) and certainly was when I was training riders.  It was also taught to fold on improver, Advanced and Born again rider courses.

 

Sorry if this is hammering the points home but the death of the young man in Norfolk could have been avoided had he used those basic skills as opposed to the basic urge to ride as fast as you can.  If my mentioning this stuff gets through to one person and stops another family from having to deal with the death of a loved one then is is worth it.

 

As you may tell I am passionate about this sort of thing. 

This article and the more detailed original article contained in the drop box link in it were referenced in a similar discussion a few years ago.

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

They make interesting reading.

Edited March 5, 2018 by JeremyC

[newbryford]

. Some cars have optional reversing cameras, especially 4x4's. 

 

But looking over your shoulder isn't optional when reversing.

I reckon the number of near misses with pedestrians as vehicles reverse out from car park spaces relying only on their rear camera is on the increase.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Horsetan]

But looking over your shoulder isn't optional when reversing.

I reckon the number of near misses with pedestrians as vehicles reverse out from car park spaces relying only on their rear camera is on the increase....

The fact that the rear parking sensor / camera is considered necessary seems to be a tacit admission that visibility is not a strong point in today's car design.

[newbryford]

The fact that the rear parking sensor / camera is considered necessary seems to be a tacit admission that visibility is not a strong point in today's car design.

 

Rear parking sensors are for wimps.........

[kevinlms]

But looking over your shoulder isn't optional when reversing.

I reckon the number of near misses with pedestrians as vehicles reverse out from car park spaces relying only on their rear camera is on the increase.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Many people (vehicles & pedestrians) seem to think its OK to go round the back of a vehicle, that has its reversing lights on. Sure they are legally entitled to, because the reversing vehicle has to give way, but its something that should be carefully considered (i.e. have they seen me?), before doing so. Nothing could be worse than say hitting a pusher or a small child. 

[newbryford]

Many people (vehicles & pedestrians) seem to think its OK to go round the back of a vehicle, that has its reversing lights on. Sure they are legally entitled to, because the reversing vehicle has to give way, but its something that should be carefully considered (i.e. have they seen me?), before doing so. Nothing could be worse than say hitting a pusher or a small child. 

 

Quite possibly so, but how would you see that the reversing lights are on unless you're stood behind it?

[PaulCheffus]

But looking over your shoulder isn't optional when reversing.

I reckon the number of near misses with pedestrians as vehicles reverse out from car park spaces relying only on their rear camera is on the increase.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Hi

 

Surely you should be reversing into the space so you can drive out giving you complete visibility of your surroundings?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Edited March 5, 2018 by PaulCheffus

[chriswright03]

This article and the more detailed original article contained in the drop box link in it were referenced in a similar discussion a few years ago.

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

They make interesting reading.

Jeremy I believe that has been posted on here before possibly by Shortliner.  Thanks for the reminder and as it happens I was doing it today and thought about that article.  Simply put move your head to look and not just your eyes.  Of course it doesn't take into account them that don't even look.

 

In any event well worth a read.

[newbryford]

Hi

 

Surely you should be reversing into the space so you can drive out giving you complete visibility of your surroundings?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Agreed, but how many actually reverse in? I think we've had that discussion on here a few times.

 

As much as reversing into the space is the recommendation, part of the driving test now includes driving forwards into a bay space........ 

 

A side-effect of wanting to squeeze as many spaces into the limited area - there is one supermarket car park near me where about 1/3 of the spaces have a wall behind them, so access is limited for the boot/back door The spaces are also so narrow that you stand a good chance of scraping yours or someone else's car whilst trying to get to the rear. Cue for lots of nose-in parking

[kevinlms]

Agreed, but how many actually reverse in? I think we've had that discussion on here a few times.

 

As much as reversing into the space is the recommendation, part of the driving test now includes driving forwards into a bay space........ 

 

A side-effect of wanting to squeeze as many spaces into the limited area - there is one supermarket car park near me where about 1/3 of the spaces have a wall behind them, so access is limited for the boot/back door The spaces are also so narrow that you stand a good chance of scraping yours or someone else's car whilst trying to get to the rear. Cue for lots of nose-in parking

I've had to reverse into some commercial car parks and with a tailgate. So the process has to be, drive most of the way into, unload what tools I need and put them at the sides, then reverse the rest of the way. Reloading is the reverse, a pain, but sometimes the space between rows, means that its impossible to drive in forwards, well actually the backing out again, presents the difficulty.

[kevinlms]

Quite possibly so, but how would you see that the reversing lights are on unless you're stood behind it?

Many times you can tell, it depends on the layout of the light cluster. Doesn't stop some people going behind you, AFTER you have started to move! A death wish for pedestrians.

[newbryford]

I've had to reverse into some commercial car parks and with a tailgate. So the process has to be, drive most of the way into, unload what tools I need and put them at the sides, then reverse the rest of the way. Reloading is the reverse, a pain, but sometimes the space between rows, means that its impossible to drive in forwards, well actually the backing out again, presents the difficulty.

 

If you tried that move at my particular supermarket car park you'd incur the wrath of many motorists - they are VERY short spaces.

If you moved forwards to load up, then a queue would form wanting your space, thinking you were leaving immediately.

I try my best to avoid it a busy times.

[Horsetan]

Agreed, but how many actually reverse in? I think we've had that discussion on here a few times.

I always back it in, so I can drive straight out.

 

As much as reversing into the space is the recommendation, part of the driving test now includes driving forwards into a bay space....

You've reminded me of the Egyptian driving test which, for many years, only required the examinee to be able to drive between two straight lines.

 

 

 

Many times you can tell, it depends on the layout of the light cluster....

A single reversing light (the EU minimum requirement, I think) on the nearside isn't going to help those approaching from the offside.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Horsetan

[peanuts]

Many people (vehicles & pedestrians) seem to think its OK to go round the back of a vehicle, that has its reversing lights on. Sure they are legally entitled to, because the reversing vehicle has to give way, but its something that should be carefully considered (i.e. have they seen me?), before doing so. Nothing could be worse than say hitting a pusher or a small child.

try reversing any sort of large comercial vehicle hazard lights reversing lights reversing alarms and still people will wall across the rear of amoving vehicle oblivious to its presence .tho i have noticed how many of the culprits have headphones in there ears or are glued to the internet on the screen .as for mums with pushchairs they are probably the worst for being inatentive as they update the world on thier little treasurs latest bowl movement on facebook press the button on the pelican then set of across with out looking then look somwhat confused as to why the driver of that HGV has is nose against against the windscreen and is gesticulating furiosley