Driving standards

[TheQ]

Right, time for another vehicle in my Collection.

 

I have a Yamaha X-max 125 Motor scooter the only things non standard, are an extra large windscreen, socket for heated gloves, and socket for the battery charger.

I normally only use this in the summer now, as since going diabetic I feel the cold very badly, hence the battery charger to keep the battery happy all winter.

 In the past I have had to ride it the 25 miles into work through the snow which is entertaining so say the least...

Riding the Bike,

 

 For:

 It's quicker than the other vehicles going to work, as I can trickle down the sides of traffic queues and get past tractors easier..

By getting off, pushing the bike through a 100ft cut though onto an industrial estate, I save over a mile on the journey and 2 busy junctions and two other junctions with traffic lights.

It's top speed on the flat is 70mph with me, sat bolt upright behind the big screen, I'm in Norfolk that's all I need, more than enough for the roads around here.

 It does 100mpg no matter what I do, saving 8 gallons of fuel a working week, about £40

 I enjoy it on a warm summers day

 

 

Against.

The suspension is hard and is agrivating my back therefore it's the last 2 wheeled transport I will have.

Cockwombles see the L plates on the back and assume I'm a 50cc moped limited to 30mph.

 

Cockwombles try desperately to overtake in stupid places because I am sticking to the 30mph limit in town.

Cockwombles try to overtake when I am accelerating out of town up to the 60mh limit and then are suprised when I am still alongside them when they try to turn back in.

Cockwombles desperately try to overtake as I slow to 30mph an reaching that limit.

Cockwombles pull out on me, sorry mate didn't see you, I've got lights on, wearing full flourescent protective bike gear!!!

Cockwombles pull out assuming I'm only a moped, particularly BMWs, I've several times found myself  riding squashed between the the pulling out car and the kerb, as I arrive braking from 60mph, not the 30mph they were expecting.

[Mallard60022]

Right, time for another vehicle in my Collection.

 

I have a Yamaha X-max 125 Motor scooter the only things non standard, are an extra large windscreen, socket for heated gloves, and socket for the battery charger.

I normally only use this in the summer now, as since going diabetic I feel the cold very badly, hence the battery charger to keep the battery happy all winter.

 In the past I have had to ride it the 25 miles into work through the snow which is entertaining so say the least...

Riding the Bike,

 

 For:

 It's quicker than the other vehicles going to work, as I can trickle down the sides of traffic queues and get past tractors easier..

By getting off, pushing the bike through a 100ft cut though onto an industrial estate, I save over a mile on the journey and 2 busy junctions and two other junctions with traffic lights.

It's top speed on the flat is 70mph with me, sat bolt upright behind the big screen, I'm in Norfolk that's all I need, more than enough for the roads around here.

 It does 100mpg no matter what I do, saving 8 gallons of fuel a working week, about £40

 I enjoy it on a warm summers day

 

 

Against.

The suspension is hard and is agrivating my back therefore it's the last 2 wheeled transport I will have.

Cockwombles see the L plates on the back and assume I'm a 50cc moped limited to 30mph.

 

Cockwombles try desperately to overtake in stupid places because I am sticking to the 30mph limit in town.

Cockwombles try to overtake when I am accelerating out of town up to the 60mh limit and then are suprised when I am still alongside them when they try to turn back in.

Cockwombles desperately try to overtake as I slow to 30mph an reaching that limit.

Cockwombles pull out on me, sorry mate didn't see you, I've got lights on, wearing full flourescent protective bike gear!!!

Cockwombles pull out assuming I'm only a moped, particularly BMWs, I've several times found myself  riding squashed between the the pulling out car and the kerb, as I arrive braking from 60mph, not the 30mph they were expecting.

Interesting you say that. Many years ago I was involved in some work with Sussex Police about where drivers look at junctions and how they:

1. don't see bikes as well as if those bikes (motor and pedal) are not positioned as would a car/van etc. (That is, bikes too near the kerb)

2. don't expect a pedal bike to be going at any sort of speed other than slow.

These were just two of quite a few interesting findings, however the most frightening discovery was of the limited visual search patterns of so many experienced drivers and the limited processing of anticipating what some otrher road users might do.

Inexperienced drivers tended to look more carefully and for longer at junctions, however that skill didn't last long!

Phil

[Coryton]

Interesting you say that. Many years ago I was involved in some work with Sussex Police about where drivers look at junctions and how they:

1. don't see bikes as well as if those bikes (motor and pedal) are not positioned as would a car/van etc. (That is, bikes too near the kerb)

2. don't expect a pedal bike to be going at any sort of speed other than slow.

These were just two of quite a few interesting findings, however the most frightening discovery was of the limited visual search patterns of so many experienced drivers and the limited processing of anticipating what some otrher road users might do.

Inexperienced drivers tended to look more carefully and for longer at junctions, however that skill didn't last long!

Phil

 

Which leads us back to the difference between "I didn't see you there" and "You weren't looking".

[Horsetan]

....Against.

The suspension is hard and is aggravating my back ....

Surely the best argument in favour of oleopneumatic suspension.

[Chameleon]

Saw a complete nugget on my way to work today. A fire service car came past in front of me with lights n siren going great guns. I followed it up to the lights where it was stuck behind a muppet waiting at the lights. The blue lights were blazing away, siren going, headlights flashing and they were leaning on the horn. I hung back a bit in case they backed up and tried to go round. They refused to budge and only moved when the lights changed and pulled over some way up the road. There was no way they didn't know it was there but were more worried about going through the lights that letting the emergency vehicle through.

Some people really shouldn't be on the road.

[royaloak]

Saw a complete nugget on my way to work today. A fire service car came past in front of me with lights n siren going great guns. I followed it up to the lights where it was stuck behind a muppet waiting at the lights. The blue lights were blazing away, siren going, headlights flashing and they were leaning on the horn. I hung back a bit in case they backed up and tried to go round. They refused to budge and only moved when the lights changed and pulled over some way up the road. There was no way they didn't know it was there but were more worried about going through the lights that letting the emergency vehicle through.

Some people really shouldn't be on the road.

Having gone through a red light to let an Emergency vehicle through (an Ambulance in my case) and received a notice of intending prosecution a couple of weeks later I can well understand why they didnt move.

 

Oh I did appeal the notice but as I had gone through red the appeal was turned down and I had to pay it (and get three points), I did remark that I hoped the Emergency vehicles I would hold up after that disgraceful show wouldnt cause anyone to come to harm but in future I would never go through a red to let an Emergency vehicle past.

[Guest]

Saw a complete nugget on my way to work today. A fire service car came past in front of me with lights n siren going great guns. I followed it up to the lights where it was stuck behind a muppet waiting at the lights. The blue lights were blazing away, siren going, headlights flashing and they were leaning on the horn. I hung back a bit in case they backed up and tried to go round. They refused to budge and only moved when the lights changed and pulled over some way up the road. There was no way they didn't know it was there but were more worried about going through the lights that letting the emergency vehicle through.

Some people really shouldn't be on the road.

About 1:30

 

[Horsetan]

Having gone through a red light to let an Emergency vehicle through (an Ambulance in my case) and received a notice of intending prosecution a couple of weeks later I can well understand why they didnt move.

 

Oh I did appeal the notice but as I had gone through red the appeal was turned down and I had to pay it (and get three points), I did remark that I hoped the Emergency vehicles I would hold up after that disgraceful show wouldnt cause anyone to come to harm but in future I would never go through a red to let an Emergency vehicle past.

Mmm, I suppose if someone dies as a result of your (in)action, then you're not going to know about it and therefore it's not your problem.

 

One thing that intrigues me is: if you sit there in future and refuse to move forward for a police vehicle because you want to avoid the three points and a fine, do you not risk being charged with obstruction of an officer in execution of his duty instead? Three points or a criminal record: difficult choice.

[kevinlms]

About 1:30

 

So the emergency driver was the muppet, for trying to force a driver in front to go through illegally!

[Coryton]

Mmm, I suppose if someone dies as a result of your (in)action, then you're not going to know about it and therefore it's not your problem.

 

One thing that intrigues me is: if you sit there in future and refuse to move forward for a police vehicle because you want to avoid the three points and a fine, do you not risk being charged with obstruction of an officer in execution of his duty instead? Three points or a criminal record: difficult choice.

 

I looked into this a while back and my understanding is that the argument is that red lights are there for a reason and it is considered unsafe for a non-emergency vehicle to pass through red lights under any circumstances.

 

I'm not so sure about this for junctions where the red lights are set back and there is plenty of space for a car to pull ahead and to the side in safety. However given that it's the law AND it's enforced, it seems a bit much to criticise people for not breaking the law. And if somebody can be prosecuted both for going through a red light and for not going through there is something very wrong.

 

I would be interested in how emergency vehicle drivers are trained - is intimidating a driver into illegally going through a red light official policy? (I know it happens....and in my experience it's fire engines more often than not....but then again they are the most intimidating in general....)

[stewartingram]

Mmm, I suppose if someone dies as a result of your (in)action, then you're not going to know about it and therefore it's not your problem.

 

One thing that intrigues me is: if you sit there in future and refuse to move forward for a police vehicle because you want to avoid the three points and a fine, do you not risk being charged with obstruction of an officer in execution of his duty instead? Three points or a criminal record: difficult choice.

 

When I worked (as a civvy) for my local Police, I had to take a Police driving test as part of the job involving moving Police cars. (I was NOT however classed as a Police driver, it was so that I could be put on their insurance). They actually taught me that if I was stationary at a red light or junction, and twos & blues came up behind, if the only way to ensure them a clear path was to go through, then I should do it (with the necessary caution etc of course). Having since done it on a few occasions I have always been thanked by the drivers.

 

Stewart

[Horsetan]

if somebody can be prosecuted both for going through a red light and for not going through there is something very wrong....

It's very Schrödinger, isn't it?

[Coryton]

When I worked (as a civvy) for my local Police, I had to take a Police driving test as part of the job involving moving Police cars. (I was NOT however classed as a Police driver, it was so that I could be put on their insurance). They actually taught me that if I was stationary at a red light or junction, and twos & blues came up behind, if the only way to ensure them a clear path was to go through, then I should do it (with the necessary caution etc of course). Having since done it on a few occasions I have always been thanked by the drivers.

 

Hmmm. Unfortunately the law doesn't seem to recognise the idea of necessary caution etc.

 

I had always assumed that common sense would prevail when it came to penalising someone for slowly moving past a red light under such circumstances and that anybody refusing to let an emergency vehicle through was being pig-headed. But it seems not and 

I can understand someone being a bit reluctant to do the right thing (for some definition of "right") having previously got points on their license for doing so.

[Waverley West]

Talking of going through red lights, as I was heading out of town the other day, I and a string of other vehicles had to stop at a red light protecting some roadworks. After a while, as several strings of cars came past in the other direction followed by gaps with no vehicles, it became very obvious that our set of lights wasn't working and was stuck on red. Unfortunately, the other set of lights was just out of sight around a bend some distance ahead. Eventually, of course, most of the vehicles in our direction gave up and cautiously went through the red light during the gaps in vehicles coming the other way. The speed limit along this section was 30mph.

 

There were no workmen around, being a Sunday, and no obvious telephone number to call to report the problem that I could see either.

 

Presumably the drivers doing this were opening themselves up to prosecution and making themselves liable for any accident by going through a red light, even if it obviously wasn't working? Or is there room for cautious discretion in this situation? Anyone know? I sympathise with royaloak, who only did what most people would probably do in the same situation and with the very best of intentions of potentially saving someone's life.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Waverley West

[trisonic]

Dunno. When I learned to drive the Highway Code said you should carefully turn around rather than go through a red-light .

 

Over here in the USA the question is moot because in our State you can turn right on red after checking for no immediate cross traffic.

 

Best, Pete.

[MJI]

Having gone through a red light to let an Emergency vehicle through (an Ambulance in my case) and received a notice of intending prosecution a couple of weeks later I can well understand why they didnt move.

 

Oh I did appeal the notice but as I had gone through red the appeal was turned down and I had to pay it (and get three points), I did remark that I hoped the Emergency vehicles I would hold up after that disgraceful show wouldnt cause anyone to come to harm but in future I would never go through a red to let an Emergency vehicle past.

 

With hopefully the person at risk being the person who rejected your appeal.

 

If it has to happen to someone, at least it should happen to someone guilty of being a horrible person.

[MJI]

Talking of going through red lights, as I was heading out of town the other day, I and a string of other vehicles had to stop at a red light protecting some roadworks. After a while, as several strings of cars came past in the other direction followed by gaps with no vehicles, it became very obvious that our set of lights wasn't working and was stuck on red. Unfortunately, the other set of lights was just out of sight around a bend some distance ahead. Eventually, of course, most of the vehicles in our direction gave up and cautiously went through the red light during the gaps in vehicles coming the other way. The speed limit along this section was 30mph.

 

There were no workmen around, being a Sunday, and no obvious telephone number to call to report the problem that I could see either.

 

Presumably the drivers doing this were opening themselves up to prosecution and making themselves liable for any accident by going through a red light, even if it obviously wasn't working? Or is there room for cautious discretion in this situation? Anyone know? I sympathise with royaloak, who only did what most people would probably do in the same situation and with the very best of intentions of potentially saving someone's life.

 

Been there and done that.

 

Also had the controlled lights only operated by cars, that was a pain, I HAD to go over at red or spend all night waiting for a car, I even tried operating the pedestrian lights, still returned to main road over side road.

[Kickstart]

I would be interested in how emergency vehicle drivers are trained - is intimidating a driver into illegally going through a red light official policy? (I know it happens....and in my experience it's fire engines more often than not....but then again they are the most intimidating in general....)

From what i have been told by police, in this situation they are meant to turn off the blues and twos and wait without intimidating the driver in front.

 

But whether this is a national rule or lical recommendation i do not know.

 

Drivers being prosecuted for jumping a red light to give way to an emergency vehicle is fairly common so i have a lot of sympathey for anyone who refuses to take the risk.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[PhilJ W]

Been there and done that.

 

Also had the controlled lights only operated by cars, that was a pain, I HAD to go over at red or spend all night waiting for a car, I even tried operating the pedestrian lights, still returned to main road over side road.

There must have been a fault as the presence of your vehicle should have operated them. Unless it was a Reliant Robin, some detectors because they operate magnetically could not 'see' them because they used very little ferrous metal in their construction, aluminium engine block and fibreglass body.

[stewartingram]

I've found 2 issues with sensor controlled lights that are supposed to detect approaching vehicles. Firstly bad alignment and poor signage - the beam doesn't detect the vehicle, usually because the car needs to be closer to the light than the signage allows. Secondly, approach to the light seems to be speed dependant - a slow approach isn't recognised, but a faster one, with more rapid braking (and due consideration for following drivers of course) does seem to operate the lights. I've noticed both of these with local roadworks, where I've had chance to try out different approach methods. Now someone technical will come along and try to prove otherwise, but it works for me!

 

Stewart

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

It is very common for motorcycles to not trigger lights that only operate when they detect a vehicle.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Coryton]

I've found 2 issues with sensor controlled lights that are supposed to detect approaching vehicles. Firstly bad alignment and poor signage - the beam doesn't detect the vehicle, usually because the car needs to be closer to the light than the signage allows. Secondly, approach to the light seems to be speed dependant - a slow approach isn't recognised, but a faster one, with more rapid braking (and due consideration for following drivers of course) does seem to operate the lights. I've noticed both of these with local roadworks, where I've had chance to try out different approach methods. Now someone technical will come along and try to prove otherwise, but it works for me!

 

Stewart

 

Not quite the same, but (some) modern pedestrian crossings use sensors so they can tell when someone has given up and crossed on red. This means that when waiting for the green man you have to stand in a particular place or the request to cross is cancelled.

 

This probably quite a good idea in principle and is fine most of the time if you're paying attention, but not so good when you have to stand in the splash zone from a large puddle in the road because it's rained and the drains are blocked.

[Horsetan]

Talking of going through red lights, as I was heading out of town the other day, I and a string of other vehicles had to stop at a red light protecting some roadworks. After a while, as several strings of cars came past in the other direction followed by gaps with no vehicles, it became very obvious that our set of lights wasn't working and was stuck on red. Unfortunately, the other set of lights was just out of sight around a bend some distance ahead. Eventually, of course, most of the vehicles in our direction gave up and cautiously went through the red light during the gaps in vehicles coming the other way. The speed limit along this section was 30mph.

 

There were no workmen around, being a Sunday, and no obvious telephone number to call to report the problem that I could see either.

 

Presumably the drivers doing this were opening themselves up to prosecution and making themselves liable for any accident by going through a red light, even if it obviously wasn't working? Or is there room for cautious discretion in this situation? Anyone know? I sympathise with royaloak, who only did what most people would probably do in the same situation and with the very best of intentions of potentially saving someone's life.

 

Would this give some guidance?

[Waverley West]

 

Would this give some guidance?

 

Can't see anything obvious in there. I couldn't see anything in the Highway Code either.

 

The following comes from http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/traffic-lights-sequence.html - bottom of the page

 

TRAFFIC LIGHT FAILURE

If you find yourself in this position, you must treat the junction or crossroads as unmarked. With an unmarked junction, nobody has priority (see types of junctions for further information). You must proceed slowly and with caution and only continue when safe to do so.

 

 

Also, from http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/offences/traffic_lights.php is the following:

 

The traffic lights had malfunctioned, I waited on red for at least 5 minutes before I decided to move off. Immediately, I was stopped by a Police Officer who accused me of failing to comply with a traffic signal. Will I win my case?

If the lights are not working properly, the potential defence is that they do not comply with the appropriate regulations and thus, you should not be prosecuted. However, it would be for the Defendant to establish that "to proceed with caution" was a reasonable action and that it was apparent that the lights were not working properly.

 

In other words, it seems to be a pretty grey area with scope for discretion.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Waverley West

[Waverley West]

Also, re. royaloak’s plight above, it says on the same page (http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/offences/traffic_lights.php):

 

 

I had stopped but I then went through the red light to allow an emergency vehicle pass me. Is this a defence?

In theory, the offence has still been committed but it is most unlikely that a prosecution or endorsement would arise, as there are clear grounds for "special reasons" as to why no penalty should be imposed.

 

Hmmm, seems to me like you were the victim of some jobsworths twice over, royaloak, both to be prosecuted in the first place and then to have your appeal rejected. Maybe not that unusual though, judging from what others have said?

Edited February 8, 2017 by Waverley West