Driving standards

[kevinlms]

The other day traffic was snarled just up the road from where I live, so I turned left into a very small street I never normally use, it's a bit of a complication round there. Yes, a woman driver was heading my way, on "my" side of the road, waving her arms. I stopped, she pulled alongside politely saying "this is a one way street !!" - I looked around - OOOPS !! - so it was, and it was me going the wrong way !!!  A quick apology from me and we both went on our way.

 

Couldn't believe it, just up the road from where I have lived for over 20 years as well.

 

Nuff said !!!!!

 

Brit15

New fangled rules!

[F-UnitMad]

There is a solution, that not only would deal with middle lane hoggers it would also deal with elephant racers. And I bet the technology for implementing it is not far away.

 

Lane 1 toll free.

Lane 2 10p per mile or part thereof.

Lane 3 20p per mile or part thereof

Lane 4 30p etc. etc.

 

or whatever pricing you think works...

 

Double for HGVs...

Bold added - I don't suppose it ever occurs to people who want to impose extra charges on HGVs that somewhere along the line, the cost gets passed on?? So that in reality it's the end consumer of the goods the trucks have moved who effectively pays in the end??

 

No, thought not...

[Guest]

Bold added - I don't suppose it ever occurs to people who want to impose extra charges on HGVs that somewhere along the line, the cost gets passed on?? So that in reality it's the end consumer of the goods the trucks have moved who effectively pays in the end??

 

No, thought not...

Really?

 

Twice car rates for an HGV seems like a bargain to me.

[Titan]

Bold added - I don't suppose it ever occurs to people who want to impose extra charges on HGVs that somewhere along the line, the cost gets passed on?? So that in reality it's the end consumer of the goods the trucks have moved who effectively pays in the end??

 

No, thought not...

 

 

OK, since some of the ink I have been using seems invisible unless bold is used:

 

Lane one toll free. Double nothing is still nothing!!!

 

So yes I have thought of it - if the goods are that price sensitive they can stick to lane one and not pay a penny extra. If time is so critical that getting there five minutes earlier makes a difference, then they can pay for the privilege!

[rockershovel]

I use brakes regularly on the A1 and A14, reason being that if you leave a gap not less than a vehicle's length, someone will drive into it. The 4 lane section between Huntingdon and Cambridge is particularly bad for this, with traffic flows merging, crossing and moving at different speeds in adjacent lanes, even queueing onto the main road at some times of the day (the A605 exit from the A14 near Kettering is notorious for this!)

 

Re lane discipline by lorry drivers (something of an oxymoron, I know) the answer is simple. Virtually all modern HGV have turbo induction, and a given vehicle will have a known "optimum" speed based upon its configuration, load, the gradient, and general serendipity. No two HGV ever have the same optimum speed, ever. The driver knows that he is expected to get to his destination ON TIME (and with modern Just-In-Time inventory systems, he may well have a quite narrow time slot). He ALSO knows that he is expected to minimise fuel consumption, by driving at the most fuel-effective speed (ie, engine rpm and boost, not road speed).

 

So, he will stick to the defined speed and throttle setting, NO MATTER WHAT. This is why you see lorries apparently racing, taking several miles to pass each other - both drivers are on their optimum throttle settings.

Edited August 3, 2016 by rockershovel

[F-UnitMad]

OK, since some of the ink I have been using seems invisible unless bold is used:

 

Lane one toll free. Double nothing is still nothing!!!

 

So yes I have thought of it - if the goods are that price sensitive they can stick to lane one and not pay a penny extra. If time is so critical that getting there five minutes earlier makes a difference, then they can pay for the privilege!

1. No need to shout.

2. You have still missed the point - any "pay for the privledge" cost - be it increased road tax, fuel duty or your "lane tax" - would be passed on to the consumer, as more would be charged for transporting the goods. So you can charge HGVs £10 to go in lane 2 if you like; you won't change anything on the road, & just end up paying more for your shopping.

3. Goods that are delayed by slow journey times (being stuck in lane 1) wouldn't be any cheaper or 'price sensitive' - quite likely the reverse as it'd be slower; take more fuel (longer engine running time, & not at optimum mpg speeds) & the driver might well need paying more overtime... all costs to be taken into account.

4. How is this "Lane Toll" fair when there's a slow STGO load in lane 1?? You want tailbacks of HGVs to rival Calais docks behind it because they don't want to incur 20p/pm charges?? Tailbacks in Lane 1 will & do affect Lanes 2 & 3; for proof drive from Junc5 to Junc6 on the M6 at 8am any day of the week.

[Guest]

Hmm. Think what that scheme will do for tailgating when overtaking properly costs extra...

[stewartingram]

I use brakes regularly on the A1 and A14, reason being that if you leave a gap not less than a vehicle's length, someone will drive into it. The 4 lane section between Huntingdon and Cambridge is particularly bad for this, with traffic flows merging, crossing and moving at different speeds in adjacent lanes, even queueing onto the main road at some times of the day (the A605 exit from the A14 near Kettering is notorious for this!)

 

Re lane discipline by lorry drivers (something of an oxymoron, I know) the answer is simple. Virtually all modern HGV have turbo induction, and a given vehicle will have a known "optimum" speed based upon its configuration, load, the gradient, and general serendipity. No two HGV ever have the same optimum speed, ever. The driver knows that he is expected to get to his destination ON TIME (and with modern Just-In-Time inventory systems, he may well have a quite narrow time slot). He ALSO knows that he is expected to minimise fuel consumption, by driving at the most fuel-effective speed (ie, engine rpm and boost, not road speed).

 

So, he will stick to the defined speed and throttle setting, NO MATTER WHAT. This is why you see lorries apparently racing, taking several miles to pass each other - both drivers are on their optimum throttle settings.

Still doesn't mean that it is the right way to drive though.

 

Stewart

[F-UnitMad]

Still doesn't mean that it is the right way to drive though.

 

Stewart

Not disagreeing with you, but try telling our company CEO that. Fuel consumption is utterly paramount. We get an infringement report if we don't use cruise control "enough" - i.e. to a set (& apparently arbitrary) target figure. Never mind what the road conditions are or if it's "right".

Accountants rule road haulage these days.

Edited August 3, 2016 by F-UnitMad

[stewartingram]

I remember when we had an extensive rail network, marshalling yards, goods depots in every town/village that had a station, a Royal Mail that delivered most parcels rather than numerous white vans, and a human race that didn't expect things yesterday....but then we threw it all away..........

 

Stewart

[F-UnitMad]

'We' didn't; Messrs Beeching & Marples did.

[newbryford]

Why do people insist on using the term "right of way"? It's another Americanism that has crept into the UK. Strictly speaking - right of way - is exactly that, it's a road or a footpath upon which vehicles or pedestrians (etc) have the right to use that particular bit of land.

 

Much better to use "having priority" or "not having priority". It's far easier to explain that to a new road user.

 

(Who is permanently p!ssed off with a proportion of Blackburn [other towns are available] that insist right of way priority is downhill simply because they're going faster)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[coachmann]

Why do people insist on using the term "right of way"? It's another Americanism that has crept into the UK. Strictly speaking - right of way - is exactly that, it's a road or a footpath upon which vehicles or pedestrians (etc) have the right to use that particular bit of land.

 

Much better to use "having priority" or "not having priority". It's far easier to explain that to a new road user.

 

(Who is permanently p!ssed off with a proportion of Blackburn [other towns are available] that insist right of way priority is downhill simply because they're going faster)

 

Cheers,

Mick

We have been using the term 'right of way' for over 50 years.

Edited August 3, 2016 by coachmann

[royaloak]

I could ask what is wrong with young women driving towards me on the wrong side of the road because of obstacles! I have concluded 'Right of way' to a women must be the biblical 'women and children first' especially when they shake their hand at me because I have the temerity to be in their path of righteousness. Why hadn't my car evaporated?...Why was it in their way? What was wrong with me? Hadn't I seen her highness coming?  

I remember an occasion when I was driving a Bristol VR double decker (it was a while ago) and a white XR3i (I did say it was a while ago) started to pass all the cars parked on her side of the road despite the fact I was already half way along and on the correct side of the road, a heavy braking session later and we stop less than 6ft apart,

I put my hands up in a 'what the <bleep> are you doing' sort of way

with her shouting at me to 'get the <bleep> out of my way',

I reply with 'you are on the wrong side of the road and should have given way'

She replied with 'this is an XR3i I dont have to give way to anyone'

Now that left me speechless for a few seconds but I gathered my thoughts and replied with 'this is a 10 tonne double decker bus which isnt mine and I have the right of way and am taking it, 5, 4 3' .and I let the brake off so the bus starts slowly moving forward

At which point she decides reversing might be a better option and then proceeds to weave from side to side back the way she had come, as I passed her I put my hand up in a 'thank you' manner with a very cheesy grin on my face, she responded with a one finger salute, I suppose some would say I bullied my way through but it was her in the wrong and I merely stood my ground!

Edited August 3, 2016 by royaloak

[alastairq]

In my experience, (to quote a poster above,re- violence?) the apparent threat of a violent response........ even if, in reality, somewhat hollow, (the other party are not to know for sure)...is all far too many drivers actually understand.

 

I have long since ceased to render' benefit of the doubt'. So I don't consider the above action to be bullying at all. Merely making a point?

 

I find simply stopping, but almost in the way, to be effective, when others totally ignore the meaning of the centre line.

 

Having to fiddle about to get past me makes the point, but is innocuous enough.

 

Certainly slows them down from their bullying charge?

[Titan]

1. No need to shout.

 

I said it twice before, and the fact you did not appear to take any notice of it until I did 'shout' seems to suggest otherwise.

 

2. You have still missed the point - any "pay for the privledge" cost - be it increased road tax, fuel duty or your "lane tax" - would be passed on to the consumer, as more would be charged for transporting the goods. So you can charge HGVs £10 to go in lane 2 if you like; you won't change anything on the road, & just end up paying more for your shopping.

 

No, you have missed the point, payment is not necessary and therefore not required to be incurred or passed on to the consumer, and where did you get £10 from? I suggested 20p. £10 would buy 50 miles worth of lane 2 driving, which ought to be enough to overtake well over 100 lorries - unless you are just creeping past which is precisely what the toll is trying to discourage!!

 

3. Goods that are delayed by slow journey times (being stuck in lane 1) wouldn't be any cheaper or 'price sensitive' - quite likely the reverse as it'd be slower; take more fuel (longer engine running time, & not at optimum mpg speeds) & the driver might well need paying more overtime... all costs to be taken into account.

 

In my pricing structure 20p buys a mile of overtaking time. are you seriously suggesting that 20p, or even several 20 pences will make a difference on a 30 odd tonne payload which may have a value of £100,000?  Even with a truck full of 'smart price' bog roll a few 20 pence here and there is hardly going to make a difference, no lorry needs to be 'stuck in lane 1'

 

4. How is this "Lane Toll" fair when there's a slow STGO load in lane 1?? You want tailbacks of HGVs to rival Calais docks behind it because they don't want to incur 20p/pm charges?? Tailbacks in Lane 1 will & do affect Lanes 2 & 3; for proof drive from Junc5 to Junc6 on the M6 at 8am any day of the week.

 

Again, a charge of 20p for overtaking a vehicle is hardly extortionate, and overtaking an STGO should take far less than that, how is that unfair? You only need to stay in lane 2 for as long as it takes to get past the vehicle in front. As soon as you are past it is back to Lane 1 and 0p per mile again. It only penalises those that stay in lane 2 for mile after mile after mile...

Edited August 4, 2016 by Titan

[newbryford]

We have been using the term 'right of way' for over 50 years.

 

And?

 

Just because some people have been using it for so long, does it make it correct? It's one of things that I stress to my learners - do what you know (or have been told what) is correct, don't do as others do.

 

(Edit - always worth having a few lessons to avoid picking up bad habits from "experienced" drivers. Although the vast majority of my own learner driver experience was with my elder brothers and parents, I learnt the finer details from my instructor and they've stuck with me ever since)

 

For example, in a queue of traffic lanes and the right lane is turning right, is it correct not to signal right, because no-one else is?

 

There are many cases that lead me to think that continual education (or in some cases re-education) for being in charge of a potential killing machine should be compulsory.

 

Keeping up to date with rules, regulations, techniques may sound a bit boring, but it will result in a better driver.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited August 3, 2016 by newbryford

[rockershovel]

Not disagreeing with you, but try telling our company CEO that. Fuel consumption is utterly paramount. We get an infringement report if we don't use cruise control "enough" - i.e. to a set (& apparently arbitrary) target figure. Never mind what the road conditions are or if it's "right".

Accountants rule road haulage these days.

Titan, above, seems to be missing this point, which is the answer, or more correctly disproves his point about lane pricing for HGV. Modern delivery philosophy is not to get bulk items to their destination as quickly as possible, but at a predetermined time at the minimum cost. Minimising inventory is the goal, which means that items arriving before they are required, incurring storage and handling costs, are not required. For the haulier, minimising fuel and servicing costs by running HGV at optimum engine speed is the goal, along with maximising utilisation by having vehicles arrive when the next load is available and discharging promptly.

 

This is why a one-size-fits-all solution doesn't work. The subcontract delivery driver, paid per drop or pickup, is primarily interested in rapid transit between locations as close together as possible, and ideally never uses the main road network at all (since there will be no customers there). The Despatcher, dropping blocks of parcels to the drivers, may use the main network; THEIR goal is minimum journey time on a predetermined round. The long-distance van driver is probably interested primarily in maximum utilisation and minimum journey time BUT may well have more than one time-dependent item along the way.

 

The HGV proper is a different beast entirely (incidentally, it is a fallacy that there is any relation between the value of the load, and the haulage cost. Hauliers neither know nor care WHAT they are carrying, provided that it is a safe load of an acceptable weight and size, appropriate for the type of vehicle). Haulage is contracted by the load-bed foot, tonne or mile; the value of the load doesn't enter into the process unless specifically defined.

 

The work commuter, be they office worker or railway p-way gang, are interested in reliably achieving minimum feasible journey time, which will include traffic congestion and similar delays (they will be travelling around peak traffic volume).

Edited August 4, 2016 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

We have been using the term 'right of way' for over 50 years.

Conan Doyle and Dickens both used the term in their writings. It also occurs in marine usage - "sail before steam" and the like, a vessel is said to be "under way" when in motion. Americans DO use the term but didn't invent it

[njee20]

For example, in a queue of traffic lanes and the right lane is turning right, is it correct not to signal right, because no-one else is?

Well, no, other drivers' behaviour doesn't change the rules... If everyone drives at 90 that doesn't change the speed limit!

[jonny777]

On the subject of turning right. There is a junction (on a main through road to the coast) near where I live, which I use to get to my street. The road is only a single carriageway in both directions and the junction is equipped with traffic lights. The road widens enough approaching the junction to give about 100 yards of two lanes with an arrow in the right-hand lane indicating 'right turn', and an arrow in the left lane pointing 'straight on'.

 

However, on many, many occasions when following behind a short line of cars approaching the junction and with me about to turn right, and especially if the lights are red ahead and there is no traffic already stationary, I will move out towards the middle of the road and attempt to drive past the car in front and be in the right hand lane as no others have shown any interest in turning right. It would appear that for a large number of drivers, moving past them in this manner is not allowed because as soon as they notice me in their mirrors they too edge to the right as if to say "you are not getting past me", and only swerve back left when they seen the right-turn arrow in the second lane.

 

It happens so often now that I can regularly predict when it will, in advance. The drivers (that I can see enough of from behind) are invariably men. I can't remember a single woman doing this. They all drive very clean and shiny cars, and there is a much greater chance of this happening with Mercedes, Audis, Lexus, BMWs, Jaguars and larger models of Vauxhalls and Toyotas.

 

What are they thinking? This is an attempt by some prat of a driver behind to burn them up in the outside lane at the lights and get in front of them? And if so, even if that were true, why should another car being in front of them be such a no-no?  Of course locals know the road layout; but being a main route for holidaymakers and day-trippers from further afield there are many passing through who do not.

 

What is it about getting into a car which turns some drivers into arrogant inconsiderate snobs? Or are they really like this normally, but just keep the trait hidden in order not to become a social pariah?

 

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited August 4, 2016 by jonny777

[F-UnitMad]

Agree with rockershovel, above, except for this bit...

Hauliers neither know nor care WHAT they are carrying

You really should know what you are carrying, especially if it's Hazardous

 

Import Containers are the exception (notwithstanding the bit about Hazardous goods) where the driver often has no idea what the cargo is; but with a Customs-sealed box he isn't held responsible for the state of the load inside, either.

[coachmann]

And?

 

Just because some people have been using it for so long, does it make it correct? It's one of things that I stress to my learners - do what you know (or have been told what) is correct, don't do as others do.

 

(Edit - always worth having a few lessons to avoid picking up bad habits from "experienced" drivers. Although the vast majority of my own learner driver experience was with my elder brothers and parents, I learnt the finer details from my instructor and they've stuck with me ever since)

 

For example, in a queue of traffic lanes and the right lane is turning right, is it correct not to signal right, because no-one else is?

 

There are many cases that lead me to think that continual education (or in some cases re-education) for being in charge of a potential killing machine should be compulsory.

 

Keeping up to date with rules, regulations, techniques may sound a bit boring, but it will result in a better driver.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[rockershovel]

Agree with rockershovel, above, except for this bit...

You really should know what you are carrying, especially if it's Hazardous

Import Containers are the exception (notwithstanding the bit about Hazardous goods) where the driver often has no idea what the cargo is; but with a Customs-sealed box he isn't held responsible for the state of the load inside, either.

Well, yes, I was generalising. Hauliers are indeed required to carry COSHH data and the like for their loads. There is a designated location and marking code for hazardous loads. They need to know that the load is suitable, in the sense of being a proper load for the vehicle type, and properly distributed and secured on the load bed. They need to know that the nature and value of the load is within their insurance provisions. They may well need to know what loading and unloading arrangements are required. Livestock are subject to a range of provisions; concrete is a "live" load which requires particular care from the driver. Wide loads require special arrangements; plant and machinery is a specialist field, because drivers may be expected to load and offload machines - there was a very serious incident some years ago, in which an incorrectly loaded excavator struck a car heading in the other direction.

 

But most HGV drivers, most of the time, are handling containerised or palletised loads and have only a general knowledge, if any, of their loads apart from the manifest or whatever delivery paperwork they are carrying.

[45156]

I am getting worried that this thread is heading for getting locked due to the acrimony being exchanged - in fact I'm surprised that the mods have not yet taken any action.

 

PLEASE let's stop arguing and discussing potentially violent actions, and get back to the issues of discussing driving standards.

 

I stopped following this thread the last time it went into this sort of mode, but came back - was I mistaken, and are we heading for lockdown again???