Driving standards

[BlackRat]

I am baffled as to why the Unit would have stopped if it was on a shout, and even more baffled as to what your mate would have been reported for.

 

I've never heard of a unit on a shout stopping to deal with someone before.

 

When did this happen?

 

I take it there was no further action as your mate has a clear defence in law.

[Calnefoxile]

Why?

Why not??

[Calnefoxile]

On the subject of emergency Service vehicles, this has happened to me twice on different motorways, once on the M6 and once on the M4.

 

Travelling along in the 2nd Overtaking lane of a long line of traffic, I had a police car come haring up behind me with his Blues & Twos going, I had no opportunity to pull into the 1st Overtaking Lane and so all I could do was accelerate, I was already doing about 70mph, in the end I was doing nearly 100mph, and on one occasion over 100mph, before I could pull over to allow the Police Car to pass, On both occasions I got a wave of thanks and thumbs up from the Officers in the passenger seat.

 

Cheers

 

Neal.

[Baby Deltic]

The 'good samaritan' should challenge this at court..In fact, I would go as far as to say a reply to the summons, together with an indication of a 'not guilty' plea and basic information as to the defendants mitigation would hopefully see the matter withdrawn.If not, and the prosecution elected to 'run it' then the officer who reported the 'good samaritan' would then be required to attend and present his / her evidence, and be open to cross examination..A huddle between the learned clerk and the bench would then follow.........If the case depended upon 'technical' evidence e.g. from a static camera then footage either side of the alleged offence would also be useful in mitigation..Most police vehicles are now fitted with a variety of technological features from 'black box' accident recorders to dash cams, GPS, dallas keys etc etc. which could be used in defence as well as prosecution.

Why risk it? I only play the piano. I don't write the music.

[br2975]

A friend crossed the stop line but not into the junction, first police car passed, second stopped, booked him for it and carried on...

So, when the officer(s) in the second vehicle stopped and 'booked' your friend, I would expect there to have been some interaction, after all, you can't 'book' someone without speaking to them.

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When asked for an explanation as to why your friend passed the red traffic signal, what did he tell the officer(s) ?

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When cautioned ( briefly:- "you do not hav to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention something you later rely on in court ) what did your friend say ?

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If your friend was 'booked' I would take that as being reported for summons - which means the officer's file would need to pass the scrutiny of a 'decision maker'.

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Or, was your friend dealt with by means of a fixed penalty notice - and if so, and they felt aggrieved, why did they accept that course of action ?

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If the police vehicles involved were 'traffic patrol' vehicles en-route to an immediate response call ( hence the blues and twos ) then I would expect their dashboard cameras to be recording, the footage from which could be mitigation for your friend in a court case.

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There would be no reason why your friend could not attempt to call the officers from the first police vehicle as defence witnesses.

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In this day and age, with technology as it is, the officers could be easily identified.

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Forgive my scepticism (30+ years turned me that way), but there appear to be as many unanswered questions here as in the Chilcott enquiry.

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Brian R

[alastairq]

In the past, the Government used to display various videos for public consumption, on the preferred response by drivers to an emergency vehicle displaying a blue light.

 

For some reason, this 'driver education' seems to have been ignored by all.....and as a result, there is a million tonnes worth of urban myth out there displayed by drivers every day, when dealing with an emergency [or even, a non-emergency] vehicle.

 

Nearly all the urban myth results in a panicked re-action, with little or no concern for other road users around them......and a total disregard for the effect they may have on the emergency vehicle driver.

 

People seem to think that all others should, and will, respond exactly as they themselves do..or would do.

 

But drivers,especially ,all too often fail to find out the facts of the matter......how the Law stands, etc, for emergency vehicle drivers especially.

 

The most common response is over-reaction.  This more often than not results in the emergency vehicle being brought to a halt....instead of making some sort of progress.

 

We cannot blame the individual motorists....for they are driving in ignorance....perhaps they realise this, so try to invent their own solutions to the problem? [urban myth-based, usually]

 

I see this often with my own 'students'...who are 'qualified' drivers.......so the lay motorist is not alone.

 

The issue is, a lack of positive driver education.

 

Personally, I welcome the appearance of an ambulance, way back down the road behind me......usually means, the 20 cars in front of me will scream to a hlt up the nearest grass verge.....and I can neatly plod past them all, long before the ambulance ever gets close to my backside....and when it does, I simply seek a wider bit of carriageway, ease off to allow the ambulance to pass, then carry on my merry way......with the traffic now behind me!  Such action may well upset the average lay motorist, but I am these days, past caring who I upset...they all have had the opportunity to learn about driving as I have....

 

Oh, and I still have to paperwork noting I am a Green Goddess driver instructor [Home Office, not MoD]...there are still one or two of us at work......and..still at work, we teach EOD drivers with a blue light course...at one time, the only blue light course in the country to finish with a 'live' blue light run...courtesy of an escort from Humberside Police [how do the three officers left on the force find the time?}

 

Oh, another thing...as I said before, nobody can, or is, taught to drive. 

 

That is not possible, because there is no way such instruction can be 'quality-controlled..ie, has the instruction achieved the objective?

 

No matter what sort of driving course is undertaken, there is assessment of performance, with the student...whoever they may be, still learning. 

 

One Person's idea of what being able to drive means, may well not be another's.  

 

There have to be benchmarks, or standards [syllabus?]...with which to assess against.

[alastairq]

Oh, and I have no fear of tailgaters, either....I just smirk at the prospect that my next 'new' car will be financed courtesy of their insurance!

 

If only they knew how I thought, they'd soon back away.

 

I'm a 'naughty ' driver...especially where tailgating is concerned.

 

I might leave my indication to the point a novice driver would....

 

I might simply brake very gently[ especially from a higher speed]....lighting up my brake lights...if the vehicle is still there behind me...then.....without warning, my level of braking will suddenly increase.  this always gets them crossed up....and of course, I will always have a valid excuse, should I be asked....an excuse which cannot be countered...for I have the answers to that one too....[any instructor would....]

 

I might not use my brakes at all to slow...especially when the need to slow is patently obvious  to see.....[speed limit changes, for example.].........simply coming off the gas in the Daihatsu is often, enough.

 

Re-LGV instructors? Yes, as things stand,an LGV instructor doesn't need any sort of paper qualification..unlike a Cat B instructor....in order to trade.

 

But, there is a [voluntary, but expensive to renew] DSA Registration scheme.....which involves driving and teaching assessments. [i was once DSA registered, but the MoD refused to pay the renewal fees.....and I refused to fork out for their benefit....as did hundreds of us, all in a very short space of time...the DSA literally lost hundreds of Registered LGV instructors almost overnight..they weren't happy bunnies at all.]

[Baby Deltic]

Why tempt fate? You might lose your life before you get that new car. I hate tailgater's and I deliberately slow down to create more of a gap in front of me so I don't have to lock up and get hit up the rear. Getting rear ended at 70 mph will send the car into a potentially uncontrollable situation such as a spin. Being hit with force in two way traffic might force you head on into oncoming traffic.

[Guest]

Oh, and I have no fear of tailgaters, either....I just smirk at the prospect that my next 'new' car will be financed courtesy of their insurance!

 

If only they knew how I thought, they'd soon back away.

 

I'm a 'naughty ' driver...especially where tailgating is concerned.

 

I might leave my indication to the point a novice driver would....

 

I might simply brake very gently[ especially from a higher speed]....lighting up my brake lights...if the vehicle is still there behind me...then.....without warning, my level of braking will suddenly increase.  this always gets them crossed up....and of course, I will always have a valid excuse, should I be asked....an excuse which cannot be countered...for I have the answers to that one too....[any instructor would....]

Thing is, what you're describing is very much like a cash-for-crash scam with the exception that you haven't actually forced the following car into a bad position.

 

It's the kind of thing insurers are looking out for these days.

[Derekstuart]

I don't understand. If they approach you from the right then it means that they are already on the roundabout and you are not.

 

Do you mean a mini roundabout? From your description that would suggest both arriving at the same time, in which case the car to the right has automatic priority.

 

Unless you mean that you had crossed onto the roundabout threshold at the same time as a car entering on the previous entrance that was travelling far too fast? In which case surely he would be BEHIND you not to the right. If he was still to the right it would suggest that you entered in front of him.

 

 

If I was already on a roundabout and someone shot across from the right and skidded into me I would blame them because in skidding they lost total control of their vehicle. Right of way or 'priority' as it should be defined should be given, not taken. When one driver attempts to take priority before the other driver has had a chance to anticipate their intentions and give priority, collisions happen.

[Derekstuart]

At the risk of being banned from the forum...
 

With your attitude to driving, it is fortunate that you are no longer a commercial vehicle instructor. I know if you worked for me and made comments like that I'd have you out the door immediately.

 

Do you not realise that your methods could endanger other road users? It is all very easy to play games with the driver behind- but what if the accident hurts other people? Are you prepared for that?

 

I really think your attitude to driving (if it is real and not some ill advised bravado) is going to result in you either having a nasty accident or- hopefully- the Police catching you driving dangerously and taking your licence from you.

 

Of course, if you are involved in such an accident and- somehow- the Police or your insurers found out you had made this statement, it would do you no good whatsoever. Maybe see you prosecuted and/or have your insurance voided. Then you could walk.

 

PS I trust that you do know "being hit from behind is automatically the fault of the second driver" is a bit of an urban myth; usually the case, but it's not automatic.

 

Oh, and I have no fear of tailgaters, either....I just smirk at the prospect that my next 'new' car will be financed courtesy of their insurance!

 

If only they knew how I thought, they'd soon back away.

 

I'm a 'naughty ' driver...especially where tailgating is concerned.

 

I might leave my indication to the point a novice driver would....

 

I might simply brake very gently[ especially from a higher speed]....lighting up my brake lights...if the vehicle is still there behind me...then.....without warning, my level of braking will suddenly increase.  this always gets them crossed up....and of course, I will always have a valid excuse, should I be asked....an excuse which cannot be countered...for I have the answers to that one too....[any instructor would....]

 

I might not use my brakes at all to slow...especially when the need to slow is patently obvious  to see.....[speed limit changes, for example.].........simply coming off the gas in the Daihatsu is often, enough.

 

Re-LGV instructors? Yes, as things stand,an LGV instructor doesn't need any sort of paper qualification..unlike a Cat B instructor....in order to trade.

 

But, there is a [voluntary, but expensive to renew] DSA Registration scheme.....which involves driving and teaching assessments. [i was once DSA registered, but the MoD refused to pay the renewal fees.....and I refused to fork out for their benefit....as did hundreds of us, all in a very short space of time...the DSA literally lost hundreds of Registered LGV instructors almost overnight..they weren't happy bunnies at all.]

Edited August 12, 2015 by Derekstuart

[leopardml2341]

I can hear the key turning in the lock

[Derekstuart]

Probably. But when there's a subject people are passionate about then it's always going to be a little fiery.

 

Simple solution is ban all cars and build more railways. (and why have I the feeling that this will prove to be a controversial suggestion?)

 

I can hear the key turning in the lock

[Pacific231G]

If I was already on a roundabout and someone shot across from the right and skidded into me I would blame them because in skidding they lost total control of their vehicle. Right of way or 'priority' as it should be defined should be given, not taken. When one driver attempts to take priority before the other driver has had a chance to anticipate their intentions and give priority, collisions happen.

Apochraphyl inscription on a gravestone. 

 

"Here lies the body of Albert Day who insisted on his right of way. 

His way was true and his intention strong

but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong !!

 

(I think that comes from seafaring but it seems to apply here quite well.

[Derekstuart]

Apochraphyl inscription on a gravestone. 

 

"Here lies the body of Albert Day who insisted on his right of way. 

His way was true and his intention strong

but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong !!

 

(I think that comes from seafaring but it seems to apply here quite well.

 

A few years back I was coming out of Bilbao on a ferry when a (British) sailing yacht went across the bows of the PoB. The radio conversation between the yacht and the ferry was quite interesting.

 

The yacht skipper reminded the ferry Chief Officer that "power gives way to sail".

 

He must have had some balls to argue with a 11 storey piece of metal whilst sitting in a plywood box.

[Pacific231G]

Oh, and I have no fear of tailgaters, either....I just smirk at the prospect that my next 'new' car will be financed courtesy of their insurance!

 

If only they knew how I thought, they'd soon back away.

 

I'm a 'naughty ' driver...especially where tailgating is concerned.

 

I might leave my indication to the point a novice driver would....

 

I might simply brake very gently[ especially from a higher speed]....lighting up my brake lights...if the vehicle is still there behind me...then.....without warning, my level of braking will suddenly increase.  this always gets them crossed up....and of course, I will always have a valid excuse, should I be asked....an excuse which cannot be countered...for I have the answers to that one too....[any instructor would....]

 

I might not use my brakes at all to slow...especially when the need to slow is patently obvious  to see.....[speed limit changes, for example.].........simply coming off the gas in the Daihatsu is often, enough.

 

 

If that really is your attitude then please, please, please, please, please don't ever take up flying. (I think anyone here involved in sailing or any other activity involving some level of controlled danger would probably say much the same)

You only have one real responsibility as a driver and that is to complete your journey safely without endangering any other road users. Your job is not to teach other road users a  lesson, vent your anger, make "lesser" drivers see the error of their ways, demonstrate your "superior" driving standard, or anything else.  I know that sounds boring compared with all the ###### about driving as some kind of manly joust that seems to emerge whenever driving standards are discussed,. but as a presuably responsible instructor you know all that.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Pacific231G

[beast66606]

At the risk of being banned from the forum...

 

 

 

No need to say it if you feel it's gong to be that bad - a thread which has been mostly reasonable deteriorates into personal attacks and then we wonder why it gets locked.

[leopardml2341]

I saw some of that earlier methinks.....

[gordon s]

Don't worry Taz, this thread will be locked before lunchtime….

 

Staggered it has lasted this long.  Come on Andy, I'm still waiting for my lunch….:-)

[MJI]

I am baffled as to why the Unit would have stopped if it was on a shout, and even more baffled as to what your mate would have been reported for.

 

I've never heard of a unit on a shout stopping to deal with someone before.

 

When did this happen?

 

I take it there was no further action as your mate has a clear defence in law.

 

I used to know some trafpol (various, through cars and railways) and I knew what sort of things they picked up on. All in all decent people doing a thankless job.

 

However I did find that area cars (pretend traffic) could be right arses, and confirmed by friends in traffic.

 

As to being stopped. Been pulled for driving a Worcester reg car in Gloucester (knob) , been pulled to see if it was a Lotus (chatty), been pulled for after closing checks (all clear and were happy to see rear seatbelted drunk in 1978 car).

 

That said when I had a large bike one area car nearly caused a pile up trying to catch me for the henious crime of clipping the end of double white lines. My TP friend hated them. The area car went through road works on red with a lorry going the other way.

[MJI]

On the subject of emergency Service vehicles, this has happened to me twice on different motorways, once on the M6 and once on the M4.

 

Travelling along in the 2nd Overtaking lane of a long line of traffic, I had a police car come haring up behind me with his Blues & Twos going, I had no opportunity to pull into the 1st Overtaking Lane and so all I could do was accelerate, I was already doing about 70mph, in the end I was doing nearly 100mph, and on one occasion over 100mph, before I could pull over to allow the Police Car to pass, On both occasions I got a wave of thanks and thumbs up from the Officers in the passenger seat.

 

Cheers

 

Neal.

 

Same happened to a friend.

 

Also I once overtook a motorway queue doing 60, Police car at the front, they saw me pass at 70 in my very old hot hatch, they smiled and waved.

[br2975]

However I did find that area cars (pretend traffic) could be right arses, and confirmed by friends in traffic.

I'd love to see the statistics you base this hypothesis upon.

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Not the experience of actually being a police officer, I'd wager.

 

Brian R

[Baby Deltic]

I don't understand. If they approach you from the right then it means that they are already on the roundabout and you are not.

 

Do you mean a mini roundabout? From your description that would suggest both arriving at the same time, in which case the car to the right has automatic priority.

 

Unless you mean that you had crossed onto the roundabout threshold at the same time as a car entering on the previous entrance that was travelling far too fast? In which case surely he would be BEHIND you not to the right. If he was still to the right it would suggest that you entered in front of him.

There are a couple of roundabouts around my neck of the woods where adjacent property makes a turn onto the main road from a right hand turning a bit treacherous when other drivers come flying in blindly from the right on the main road. They see that no vehicles coming from the opposite direction and fly across the roundabout without even attempting to slow down. You could already have pulled onto the roundabout from the right, only for one of these low octane morons to go skidding into the side of you. You don't stand a chance once you've entered the roundabout if something is coming at speed from the right.

[Baby Deltic]

Apochraphyl inscription on a gravestone. 

 

"Here lies the body of Albert Day who insisted on his right of way. 

His way was true and his intention strong

but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong !!

 

(I think that comes from seafaring but it seems to apply here quite well.

Indeed. And a damned good rhyme. Being right is not a bullet proof vest.

[Baby Deltic]

A few years back I was coming out of Bilbao on a ferry when a (British) sailing yacht went across the bows of the PoB. The radio conversation between the yacht and the ferry was quite interesting.

 

The yacht skipper reminded the ferry Chief Officer that "power gives way to sail".

 

He must have had some balls to argue with a 11 storey piece of metal whilst sitting in a plywood box.

If its a trawler and she's fishing, I think everything gives way. Must be the only exception to the rule. Edited August 12, 2015 by Baby Deltic