3708 Killarney

[Craigw]

Yep.  I reduced the width of the splashers and found that with the reduced width they fitted neatly between the frame extensions in the cab and the cab sides.  Is the backhead in your City kit 16.5mm wide at its base?

 

I just measured my backplate at just a little over 16.5, but the footplate section between the splashers is right on 16mm. As far as I can see, the splashers in the cab have to sit right on top of the cutout rather sitting over the centre section. that seems to be the only way to get to 16mm wide and be bale to knock 0.25mm off each side of the backplate casting 

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Guest Lyonesse]

I just measured my backplate at just a little over 16.5, but the footplate section between the splashers is right on 16mm. As far as I can see, the splashers in the cab have to sit right on top of the cutout rather sitting over the centre section. that seems to be the only way to get to 16mm wide and be bale to knock 0.25mm off each side of the backplate casting 

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

It's entirely possible I misinterpreted how the cab splashers were meant to fit; as I said, I couldn't understand Martin's instructions.  I think I'll have to make new splashers to try and get some more space, then take a view as to whether it's worth trying to make the backhead fit. 

[Guest Lyonesse]

And so to the tender --- or rather tenders, since I also have a MF 3000g tender for a Dean goods.  I decided to build two tenders together even though it probably won't save any time.  Actually, they won't be completed together as the Ultrascale wheels for the second tender were ordered four months after those for the first.  As I still have a good two months to go before I get any wheels I started the bodies first.

 

First problem was which footplate to select.  Martin's instructions are a bit terse, and as there are lots of combinations of optional parts, it took a couple of evenings of study before I did anything.  In the end, Martin's instructions come down to "add parts as shown in a photograph of your chosen prototype".  But as few photographers, lugging their Thornton-Pickard plate cameras around, 100 years ago, bothered to take detail photographs of the tops of tenders, preferring instead to capture front 3/4 views of moving trains, exact details are hard to come by.  Of course, Martin has the same lack of information as the rest of us.  In the end, I decided to broadly follow the details of the preserved 3000g tander on City of Truro.

 

So the next thing to do was to fold up the inner tender body structure.  This is etched origami.  As such, it can't really be folded neatly.  To get a 90deg fold in brass you have to fold more than 90deg.  But the design requires parts of the structure to be folded into a closed box, i.e. 90deg folds to meet other parts.  In addition to that, you can't clamp along the folded edge since other parts of the origami get in the way.  And needless to say, the cut-outs in the sides mean that the half-etched fold line is not the weakest point.  So building up the box requires a lot of cursing and pinching odd points with pliars.  And then carefully checking to see which folds aren't square, or which flat sides are no longer flat.  But it came together eventually.

 

I cut the rivetted reinforcing strips for the tender upper side panels away, having found with previous MF tenders that they are too easily damaged.  They'll be added back later.

[Guest Lyonesse]

Quite a bit of progress has been made with the two tenders.

 

There used to be an aphorism which was sometimes quoted approvingly in the modelling press: "Never solder when you can screw and never, ever glue."  I think that whoever coined that must have been remembering the moral superiority he felt as a child with his Meccano set, over his little sister cutting pictures out of magazines and glueing them in a scrap book.  It certainly wasn't coined by an engineer.

 

In a properly engineered bolted joint, the bolt is stretched slightly, to maintain the preload.  Thus the bolt has to be less stiff than the items being bolted together and bolted joints are typically between heavy flanges.  It follows that bolts are not really suitable for joining thin metal, except perhaps temporarily, as they are gradually replaced by rivets or other shear fasteners.  Soldering is rarely used to join engineering parts together (although at Ferranti we did use pure tin solder to fix one part of the Type 142 gyro in place) but glue is used a lot, and is ideal for thin parts with a good joint area that is not subject to peel.

 

This is a long winded way of saying that I glued the tank overlays on, with Asda superglue.

 

The overlays are only 0.005in thick and it is not possible to solder them evenly.  You can spot solder, especially with an RSU, but to solder over a larger area requires even heating and cooling, otherwise the parts will cool unevenly and you will be left with distortion after the solder has set and everything is back to room temperature.

 

On previous MF tenders I have used the spot solder approach, with a 40W iron, but frankly, glue works much better and gives a nice, undistorted result.

 

One other thing.  The valence was the very devil to fit.  It is only 0.005 thick and must be soldered upright and in a straight line.  I think another time I will just make a thicker replacement.  It would save time.  Likewise, the steps are difficult to fit as the valence doesn't stay in place when you apply heat.  Persistence and swear words got there in the end, though.

 

The pics also show the flare.  I described my approach in PUASHP's Atbara thread.  For the corners, I cut pointy slivers of 0.005 brass with tin snips and solder them in between Martin's 'fingers'.  I then trim off and file off the beading.  The beading is replaced by 24SWG brass wire.  Finally, after plenty of solder, everything is filed to shape.

[Guest Lyonesse]

I was tardy in ordering the Ultrascale wheels, so there was an enforced break while I waited for them to arrive.  Anyway, the picture shows the current state of the loco.  I have chosen to drive the front axle rather than the rear, as Martin designed the kit.  Also, I like to add slidebars and a motion plate to inside cylindered locos, so the frame spacers are arranged somewhat differently to the kit.

[Craigw]

That really does look very nice.

 

Is there any chance of a photograph with the body fitted?

 

I have never actually see a built up Finney City for some reason!

 

Regards,

 

Craigw

[45609]

I guess it might be a bit late now but I found that adding the detail to the outer frames (steps and rivet strips etc...) before attaching it the chassis made the task of getting these items accurately positioned much easier.  The detail items were attached with a higher temperature solder to reduce the risk of them falling off when heating the joints when soldering the frames to chassis.

 

Here is a picture of a straight frame Bulldog that I have in the works at the moment.

 

 

Cheers....Morgan

Edited January 4, 2016 by 45609

[Guest Lyonesse]

I guess it might be a bit late now but I found that adding the detail to the outer frames (steps and rivet strips etc...) before attaching it the chassis made the task of getting these items accurately positioned much easier.  The detail items were attached with a higher temperature solder to reduce the risk of them falling off when heating the joints when soldering the frames to chassis.

 

Here is a picture of a straight frame Bulldog that I have in the works at the moment.

 

IMG_0233_sm.JPG

 

Cheers....Morgan

Very neat work, it looks like it will be a cracking model.

 

Measuring my Bulldog I find that the width between the frames is 15.36mm, whereas the City is 15.00mm. The extra scale inch helps with fitting the (overwide) backhead casting in between the cab splashers.

[Guest Lyonesse]

That really does look very nice.

 

Is there any chance of a photograph with the body fitted?

 

I have never actually see a built up Finney City for some reason!

 

Regards,

 

Craigw

Of course.  Still some work  to do.

 

I found it fairly easy to fit the steps with the outer frames in place.  The only disadvantage of adding all that detail with the wheels and drive in place is that you can't clean the flux up properly afterwards.

[Guest Lyonesse]

And if I may have a minor grumble: Martin's instructions say "Secure the balance weights in position using photographs as a guide to position."  Well good luck finding enough 100-year old photos to show that level of detail on an inside framed 4-4-0.  Luckily, there are plenty of photos of City of Truro on the web.  But since Martin at least did sufficient research to find the shape of the balance weights, I do think he might have included a diagram showing where they go.

[LaScala]

And if I may have a minor grumble: Martin's instructions say "Secure the balance weights in position using photographs as a guide to position."  Well good luck finding enough 100-year old photos to show that level of detail on an inside framed 4-4-0.  Luckily, there are plenty of photos of City of Truro on the web.  But since Martin at least did sufficient research to find the shape of the balance weights, I do think he might have included a diagram showing where they go.

I am facing the same problem being in the finishing straight with a David Andrews 7mm Duke.  It is seen on N15class's Pete's workbench thread.

 

Luckily DA provides a sketch showing the two options for the Duke.

 

Cannot imagine the City would be any different.

 

Lovely model by the way.

05012016104214.pdf

Edited January 5, 2016 by LaScala

[Guest Lyonesse]

The loco is pretty much finished now.  There are a couple of cab details left to add and I need to go through the leftover castings and etchings to make sure nothing has been missed.  I still have to add pickups and wire up the motor.  The painting will have to wait until warmer weather comes, hopefully towards the end of March.  The backhead clearance issue was solved by new cab splashers, which give a bit more room, and some width filed off the backhead.  I also found that I had to file the top of the rear sandbox castings to get them to sit against the side of the firebox.  And looking at the photos, I also need to check the ride height of the bogie.

[Craigw]

Thanks very much for the update Lyonesse!

 

It is great to see a bit more P4 modelling on here, especially if it involves GWR (IMHO). While the Kings and the Hall are both lovely, I have to admit that the one that ticks all the boxes for me is this. The City, along with the Atbaras, Bulldogs and Dukes are high up the list of my favourite locos.

 

Well done on the Finney kit, it really does look superb.

 

May I suggest that you build a Finney Duke next ?

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

[Guest Lyonesse]

Thanks very much for the update Lyonesse!

 

It is great to see a bit more P4 modelling on here, especially if it involves GWR (IMHO). While the Kings and the Hall are both lovely, I have to admit that the one that ticks all the boxes for me is this. The City, along with the Atbaras, Bulldogs and Dukes are high up the list of my favourite locos.

 

Well done on the Finney kit, it really does look superb.

 

May I suggest that you build a Finney Duke next ?

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

Thanks.  I'd probably be more inclined to do a curved frame Bulldog.   But a Dean goods will probably be next, or maybe I'll put some effort into converting the Britrail Jubilee I bought on ebay to P4 standards.

[Craigw]

Thanks.  I'd probably be more inclined to do a curved frame Bulldog.   But a Dean goods will probably be next, or maybe I'll put some effort into converting the Britrail Jubilee I bought on ebay to P4 standards.

 

The Britrail Jubilee is I assume one of the brass imports (possibly Samhongsa)?

 

Are you planning on machining the existing wheels or rebuilding the chassis?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKcGt8CVwPA

 

One of our locals has converted a number of brass locos to S3.5. A lot of work involved in machining the wheels but the results are quite superb. This is exact scale 3.5mm. He works from measurements and GA drawings and scales down from that. The running gear on the loco may look slightly familiar, this is what the Metropolitan tanks morphed into out here!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Guest Lyonesse]

The Britrail Jubilee is I assume one of the brass imports (possibly Samhongsa)?

 

Are you planning on machining the existing wheels or rebuilding the chassis?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKcGt8CVwPA

 

One of our locals has converted a number of brass locos to S3.5. A lot of work involved in machining the wheels but the results are quite superb. This is exact scale 3.5mm. He works from measurements and GA drawings and scales down from that. The running gear on the loco may look slightly familiar, this is what the Metropolitan tanks morphed into out here!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

I bought a Korean brass 4mm Stanier tender on ebay.  This had been (factory?) sprayed with gold paint.  When I stripped that off, I found that the brass had been gold plated.  The main fault with it is that the handrails and handrail knobs are way over scale.  I have built a new chassis for it with Studiolith wheels.  It's interesting that details such as the tender beading are pressed into the brass.

 

After that, I bought a Jubilee and tender.  These are in LMS red, but the paint is flaking badly.  Again, details such as boiler bands are pressed into the brass.  The Jubilee tender is identical to the tender I bought earlier.  The intention is to rebuild to P4 standards as 5640 Frobisher, which was the first named LMS loco that my father ever saw, some time in the mid-1930s.

[Horsetan]

.....One of our locals has converted a number of brass locos to S3.5. A lot of work involved in machining the wheels but the results are quite superb. This is exact scale 3.5mm. ....

I note from the YouTube videos that this is even finer than P87. Has he published his standards?

[Craigw]

I note from the YouTube videos that this is even finer than P87. Has he published his standards?

 

Short answer is no.

 

When the P87 standards were first released, they messed up the ratio. Oscar realised this and he works to the actual dimensions on the New South Wales Government Railway GA drawings. His logic is that if you follow the prototype dimensions it will work out correct. As you can see by the video, that appears to be the case 

 

Craig W

[Horsetan]

Short answer is no.

 

When the P87 standards were first released, they messed up the ratio. Oscar realised this and he works to the actual dimensions on the New South Wales Government Railway GA drawings. His logic is that if you follow the prototype dimensions it will work out correct.....

 

Maybe he should think about publishing then, so that we can all follow his example by starting correctly.

[Guest Lyonesse]

Spring is here and the loco and tender are about as complete as they're ever likely to be (there may be the odd part I've missed, it's a little hard to tell).  So I set up to do some painting.  I put the bodies in the dishwasher for an extra final clean (first time I've tried this) having first brush painted the whitemetal parts, as I was a little worried about the effect of the dishwasher chemicals on them.  I used to start with an aerosol can of primer, but I found it obscures detail.  So following Guy Williams, I now just spray the top colour onto bare metal.  I'm not a great model painter; Calcutta, my Bulldog, was painted three times.  I had to strip the first coat as the finish was poor, the second was fine but then in a fit of absence of mind I applied full lining.  This had to be stripped so I could achieve the correct plain green finish.

 

Anyway, out with the Badger 200, Precision gloss green, lighter fuel thinner, car tyre compressor (see MRJ) and 12V power supply.  But the paint would not flow through the airbrush, no matter how much I blasted white spirit through it.  I decided to call it a day and order a cheap Chinese dual action airbrush off ebay for a tenner.  Meanwhile, I'll try some extra cleaning of the Badger 200 and wrap the bodies in clingfilm.

[Guest Lyonesse]

Missed the photo

[Guest Lyonesse]

[Guest Lyonesse]

There has been some progress with Killarney.  Now that the better weather is here, and I have got a new Chinese airbrush and compressor, I have sprayed on the first paint.  This is Precision GWR gloss green, thinned with lighter fluid and baked in the oven at 50degC after application.  Following Guy Williams, I now don't bother with an undercoat, at least for a green main colour.  Red needs a red oxide primer first (or purple, if you're aiming for rich, crimson lake.)

[Guest Lyonesse]

I should finish this thread before starting a new one.

 

Anyway, Killarney did eventually get finished.  Livery is unlined green (if it's good enough for Bachmann...) as shown in the attached photos.  Also shown are a couple of comparison photos of Killarney with Calcutta, my Finney Bulldog, which shows how small the Bulldogs were

[garethashenden]

It almost looks like one is HO. That's quite a difference in size when side by side.